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skr 1
>That's the same thing I was taught in my FJC 4 years ago.
>IF it's a situation that your reserve fires after your main is
>open and toggles unstowed, then you would steer with those
>toggles. But if they're stowed, don't touch 'em.
>Steer with the risers.
Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong or maybe they are
not saying what they really mean but in
http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2004SIM/Section4CatA.htm#1h
it says:
- for a biplane - "Steer the front canopy gently using toggles"
- for side by side (alternative 2) - "Steer the dominant (larger) canopy gently using toggles"
And in the pdf document at Performance Designs
which these recommendations are based on it says
the preferred method is to steer with the toggles of the
dominant / larger / front canopy.
Maybe they are just assuming that if all toggles are
stowed people would just naturally leave them stowed
and steer with the rear risers.
But it sounds to me like they are saying to unstow the
toggles and steer with them.
----
Every once in while in recent years I have a vision
of me sitting in court trying to explain to a whuffo jury
about something and finally losing it and cutting loose
with
"I don't care what the fucking BSRs say!
In this situation it's a stupid idea!"
That would at least renew my Crusty Old Curmudgeon
rating. :-) :-)
----
Maybe the Safety and Training Committee could clarify
this at the next BOD meeting.
Skr
>IF it's a situation that your reserve fires after your main is
>open and toggles unstowed, then you would steer with those
>toggles. But if they're stowed, don't touch 'em.
>Steer with the risers.
Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong or maybe they are
not saying what they really mean but in
http://www.uspa.org/publications/SIM/2004SIM/Section4CatA.htm#1h
it says:
- for a biplane - "Steer the front canopy gently using toggles"
- for side by side (alternative 2) - "Steer the dominant (larger) canopy gently using toggles"
And in the pdf document at Performance Designs
which these recommendations are based on it says
the preferred method is to steer with the toggles of the
dominant / larger / front canopy.
Maybe they are just assuming that if all toggles are
stowed people would just naturally leave them stowed
and steer with the rear risers.
But it sounds to me like they are saying to unstow the
toggles and steer with them.
----
Every once in while in recent years I have a vision
of me sitting in court trying to explain to a whuffo jury
about something and finally losing it and cutting loose
with
"I don't care what the fucking BSRs say!
In this situation it's a stupid idea!"
That would at least renew my Crusty Old Curmudgeon
rating. :-) :-)
----
Maybe the Safety and Training Committee could clarify
this at the next BOD meeting.
Skr
QuoteI feel like most people in that situation just play it by ear, but I would really like to have a plan in the event that it ever happened.
![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]")
Kelly
Kelly,
You can get some first hand experience with bi-planes, side-by-sides, and down downplanes if you'd like to try some CReW. Just come by Skydive Atlanta this weekend and let me know you're interested. I have some CReW canopies there.
Chris
FrogNog 1
QuoteBut it sounds to me like they [USPA / the SIM] are saying to unstow the toggles and steer with them.
I agree that's what they're probably saying. I don't agree it's the best practice. (Yeah, I know, 200 jump wonder second-guessing the SIM. Well, I consider this particular part of the SIM only a recommendation, and would prefer to fly my two-outs with brakes stowed.)
-=-=-=-=-
Pull.
PhreeZone 15
Kelly, take Chris up on his offer! You will learn so much about how canopies react when flying and bumping into each other on a CRW jump that it will give you confidence later. Going into a downplane and releaseing leg grips will show you how your canopies will react if you are in a solo downplane. Plus its just a lot of fun 
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
Very insightful.... and thanks for the copy/paste from your previous post 
SO -- you would use the "front" canopy to steer. Something i heard was to always use the dominant (in some cases, larger) canopy which is typically the main. Why use the front??
ON ANOTHER NOTE -- the thing about using a toggle to cause a downplane makes the situation even "touchier". So would you use a front riser? Rear? or anything to get the canopies to separate?
*sorry if i'm misunderstanding things or getting lines crossed* (ha! no pun intended)
~hollywood
see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com
SO -- you would use the "front" canopy to steer. Something i heard was to always use the dominant (in some cases, larger) canopy which is typically the main. Why use the front??
ON ANOTHER NOTE -- the thing about using a toggle to cause a downplane makes the situation even "touchier". So would you use a front riser? Rear? or anything to get the canopies to separate?
*sorry if i'm misunderstanding things or getting lines crossed* (ha! no pun intended)
~hollywood
see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com
skr 1
>SO -- you would use the "front" canopy to steer.
>Something i heard was to always use the dominant
>(in some cases, larger) canopy which is typically
>the main. Why use the front??
Remember that I've never had two out, so everything
I'm saying is based on talking to some experienced
people, seeing a few, and thinking ahead as much
as I can.
Also, if you live close to the crewdog who invited
you to give it a try, think about trying it.
Crewdogs appear to be a scruffy lot, with gear flaps
open and risers hanging out and non standard attire
and weird looking helmets and stuff, but (not to give
away any trade secrets or anything) I think it is just
part of the mystique, because when you show any
interest they open right up and are nice people.
So .. in a biplane I would steer with the front canopy.
What would happen if I used the rear one? Would it
become a side by side or ... ?
"Dominant" doesn't have a clear meaning to me.
In a biplane it seems like the front is dominant.
For a side by side is it the biggest one? or the one
with the most drive? or ... ?
In a side by side I would start out trying the inside
rear riser of both canopies.
As a general principle, if I had a stable situation,
biplane or side by side, I would mess with it as
little as possible and try to get on the ground before
something weird happens.
>ON ANOTHER NOTE -- the thing about using a toggle
>to cause a downplane makes the situation even "touchier".
>So would you use a front riser? Rear? or anything to get
>the canopies to separate?
Good question. You just uncovered something I haven't
thought ahead about. I guess both front and rear would
work. I'll have to ask a few people and think about it.
One thing that bugs me about using toggles is that, OK,
maybe an experienced jumper can keep straight which
risers are going to which canopy, but what about a student?
They're already rattled just jumping out of the plane.
What if they undo one toggle from each canopy?
Now you've got two canopies doing what? Each going
into line twists?
And suppose they do manage to cut away the main.
Now you've got a reserve with one toggle undone,
doing what? Turning? Going into further line twists?
Is even an experienced jumper going to figure all that
out??
So I'm going to stick with leaving my toggles stowed
until some credible people convince me otherwise.
>*sorry if i'm misunderstanding things or getting
>lines crossed* (ha! no pun intended)
Right ...
We've seen your type come through here before :-) :-)
Good questions.
Skr
>Something i heard was to always use the dominant
>(in some cases, larger) canopy which is typically
>the main. Why use the front??
Remember that I've never had two out, so everything
I'm saying is based on talking to some experienced
people, seeing a few, and thinking ahead as much
as I can.
Also, if you live close to the crewdog who invited
you to give it a try, think about trying it.
Crewdogs appear to be a scruffy lot, with gear flaps
open and risers hanging out and non standard attire
and weird looking helmets and stuff, but (not to give
away any trade secrets or anything) I think it is just
part of the mystique, because when you show any
interest they open right up and are nice people.
So .. in a biplane I would steer with the front canopy.
What would happen if I used the rear one? Would it
become a side by side or ... ?
"Dominant" doesn't have a clear meaning to me.
In a biplane it seems like the front is dominant.
For a side by side is it the biggest one? or the one
with the most drive? or ... ?
In a side by side I would start out trying the inside
rear riser of both canopies.
As a general principle, if I had a stable situation,
biplane or side by side, I would mess with it as
little as possible and try to get on the ground before
something weird happens.
>ON ANOTHER NOTE -- the thing about using a toggle
>to cause a downplane makes the situation even "touchier".
>So would you use a front riser? Rear? or anything to get
>the canopies to separate?
Good question. You just uncovered something I haven't
thought ahead about. I guess both front and rear would
work. I'll have to ask a few people and think about it.
One thing that bugs me about using toggles is that, OK,
maybe an experienced jumper can keep straight which
risers are going to which canopy, but what about a student?
They're already rattled just jumping out of the plane.
What if they undo one toggle from each canopy?
Now you've got two canopies doing what? Each going
into line twists?
And suppose they do manage to cut away the main.
Now you've got a reserve with one toggle undone,
doing what? Turning? Going into further line twists?
Is even an experienced jumper going to figure all that
out??
So I'm going to stick with leaving my toggles stowed
until some credible people convince me otherwise.
>*sorry if i'm misunderstanding things or getting
>lines crossed* (ha! no pun intended)
Right ...
We've seen your type come through here before :-) :-)
Good questions.
Skr
Quote
And suppose they do manage to cut away the main.
Now you've got a reserve with one toggle undone,
doing what? Turning? Going into further line twists?
i think someone posted it also on this thread, about if you have a toggle in your hand, how are you supposed to cut away?
plus, i never considered what unstowing a RESERVE toggle would do once you do cut the main away..... ay yi yi!!!
*this has been helpful to say the least - thanks!*
~hollywood
see the world! http://gorocketdog.blogspot.com
MakeItHappen 15
QuoteSo -- back to an original question -- by releasing a main toggle, will it (in most cases) go into a downplane? that's the impression i got from some skydivers debating this with me.
I asked John LeBlanc about 'inducing a downplane' from either a biplane or side-by-side configuration when he gave a talk about dual squares at a PIA Symposium some years ago. Many jumpers *think* it's easy to induce a downplane and have this as a 'plan'- after all CRW-dawgs do it all the time.
There are several differences between a personal downplane and what CRW-dawgs do.
1. You are mostly likely to be REALLY low - somewhere around 700 ft or lower when you realize you have two canopies out.
2. To induce a downplane you need to steer canopies in opposite directions. That takes two hands [*]. John told me that they tried this (My understanding was that both canopies had both brakes unstowed. The jumper had to pull down on the outside toggles or risers.) - up high of course. The canopies tended to come back together- so you needed to keep steering to keep them apart. Then with your third hand you'd cutaway the main when the canopies were far enough apart. Most of the jumpers I know only have two hands, some only have one.
Like, Skratch, I have never been under a personal two out situation. I've seen a number of them.
The only scenario where it *might* be feasible to induce a downplane, is one where the main and reserve are significantly different sizes. eg reserve ~150 sq. ft. and a main around 90 sq. ft. I know many jumpers that have this 'plan', but no one who has actually done it.
[*] Your comment of 'by releasing a main toggle' suggests another method of inducing a downplane. If you had a SBS, it may be possible to release only the inboard toggle of each canopy and get them to turn into a downplane. That would keep the canopies steering away from each other without the use of your hands. I do not know anyone that has tried this. I do not know if this would work. As far as I know PD has never tried this either. It may take several seconds for the canopies to separate far enough so that a snag after cutaway is minimal. If you are at 700 feet to begin with, then you have very little time to pull something like this off. Plus, as Skratch mentions, you have to figure out which risers go to which canopy. Color coded risers would help. Different colored toggles are what most people might have, but that's not universal. On top of all that, once you cutaway, your reserve will be in a turn.
BTW, your reserve should be a different color than your main. Oh yeah - at your next repack, after you do a simulated malfunction with cutaway, pull reserve, you should check to see which canopy is taller. This will come in handy if you do find yourself in a two-out situation. If the front canopy is taller so that the leading edge of the back canopy is below the trailing edge of the front canopy, you'll probably get a biplane. If the front canopy is shorter so that the leading edge of the back canopy is above or directly behind the trailing edge of the front canopy, you'll probably get a SBS. Most often the main is in front and the reserve is in back ( from common pull main as AAD fires scenario).
Biplanes are stable most of the time. I would do as little steering as possible. I would steer by lifting a leg (aka grab your opposite ankle with your hand). I would not do toggle or riser steering. I *might* release the toggles on the front canopy. If they were flying together fine I'd leave it alone. Any control inputs have to be small.
I do know one person that had a stable biplane. Then they got the get-home-i-tis bug and toggle steered the front canopy back to the DZ. The canopies downplaned ~150 ft - not pretty.
QuoteAlso, if the canopies DO start to separate, would you cutaway *with confidence* that the main risers would clear?
My cutaway would be with confidence. But there are no guarantees about entanglements.
.
.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker
That's the same thing I was taught in my FJC 4 years ago. IF it's a situation that your reserve fires after your main is open and toggles unstowed, then you would steer with those toggles. But if they're stowed, don't touch 'em. Steer with the risers.
That's what I was taught, anyway.
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