NoShitThereIWas 0 #51 December 28, 2004 SunnyDays: Don't pluck your wings like that, that will never help you fly. You have the desire, that is all you need. Skydivers never give up. Listen, if you are too scared to dive out alone, do another linked exit with your AFF-Instructor. Have them add very little input into your exit if possible so you are doing most of it on your own. If you need to do 2 or 3 more linked exits, do them. I "got through" all of my AFF jumps the first time but when it came time for my first solo, I sort of wanted to put the reigns on. I had fear about going out alone (it was jump #8) so I cheated and asked my friend Johnny Luv to come out with his video camera and play with me. So my first solo wasn't a true solo but it was what my comfort level was comfortable with at the time and so I did my first real solo on my 9th jump. Big deal. I have one of the coolest videos now of me and Johnny playing in the skies over Monterey Bay and doing just that gave me the confidence and relaxation to overcome my fears on following jumps. If you have the desire, you will find ways to overcome the fear.Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #52 December 28, 2004 Quote The bare energy, without interpretation is not fear, not yet. It is thought that makes it fear. The rush can be interpreted as joy, or terror. Careful not to confuse the addiction to joy as an addiction to fear. Fear does not feel good, and does not enhance our performance. It has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. I tend to disagree. Fear is what triggers the adrenaline release in preparation for fight or flight(running away). That is its redeeming quality. Fear is a low level physical reaction to preceive danger, even subconciously preceived danger. It is maintaining rational control of oneself that becomes the task to be accomplished. Rather than eliminating fear, fear should be expected, recognized and managed/utilized. If one can avoid becoming overwhelmed by it, fear will boost ones abilities beyond the ordinary, exactly what it is meant to do. I have learned this from other activities. In my preparations for my first jump, this has actually become a much bigger issue and adventure for me than I had expected BTW I also use breathe controll and mental visualizations of calm peaceful places(self hypnosis) to regain control of myself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #53 December 28, 2004 QuoteQuote I said: The bare energy, without interpretation is not fear, not yet. It is thought that makes it fear. The rush can be interpreted as joy, or terror. Careful not to confuse the addiction to joy as an addiction to fear. Fear does not feel good, and does not enhance our performance. It has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. You said: I tend to disagree. Fear is what triggers the adrenaline release in preparation for fight or flight(running away). That is its redeeming quality. Fear is a low level physical reaction to preceive danger, even subconciously preceived danger I do not define what you are describing as "fear". That is the preliminary somatic experience of arousal. It has not been interpreted yet, and so has not affective tone. Fear is what happens when our egos get ahold of the arousal and add a layer of "story" on to what is happening. That's when things go from bad to worse. It is unarguable that fear increases our capacity for "Fight, Flight or Freeze". If the correct solution falls in one of these categories, we are all set. This positive outcome arrises as a result of pure luck. The percentage of experiences in modern life that such responses are beneficial is quite low. Most of the time, higher cognitive functioning and emotional intelligence is what we need, rather than unconscious, preconditioned and stereotypical responses. I refer to successful fear as: "Saved by the Caveman within". How often is the caveman really going to help you? I choose choice. +Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #54 December 28, 2004 QuoteA few weeks ago, while headed to the DZ, I got that queasy, uneasy pit of the stomach feeling about jumping that day. I'm not sure that I would call it fear, but it is certainly similar. I think that there were several things that made this weekend different. I'm just returning to the sport after a 5 year layoff and have around 10 current jumps. The winds were up a little and I was planning on jumping a demo canopy. Before I made it to the DZ I had decided not to jump that day and didn't. Went back this past weekend and didn't hesitate to make a couple of jumps. The only difference being the winds were much calmer. I beleive there's a difference between fear and premonition, and that it's better to err on the safe side, if that can even be called an err Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BrianSGermain 1 #55 December 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteA few weeks ago, while headed to the DZ, I got that queasy, uneasy pit of the stomach feeling about jumping that day. I'm not sure that I would call it fear, but it is certainly similar. I think that there were several things that made this weekend different. I'm just returning to the sport after a 5 year layoff and have around 10 current jumps. The winds were up a little and I was planning on jumping a demo canopy. Before I made it to the DZ I had decided not to jump that day and didn't. Went back this past weekend and didn't hesitate to make a couple of jumps. The only difference being the winds were much calmer. I beleive there's a difference between fear and premonition, and that it's better to err on the safe side, if that can even be called an err Right on. There are ways of knowing that occur when we really need them. The trouble is, our egos usually speak so loudly that we don't hear the wise voice in our heads telling us to back off. I have gotten off airplanes that ended up going in. I cannot tell you why, it was just what I would call a "feeling". It is through this kind of wisdom that we survive. We don't need to know where it is coming from; only that it is worth listening to. +Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #56 December 28, 2004 [reply I do not define what you are describing as "fear". That is the priliminary somatic experience of arousal. It has not been interpreted yet, and so has not affective tone. Fear is what happens when our egos get ahold of the arousal and add a layer of "story" on to what is happening. That's when things go from bad to worse. It is unarguable that fear increases our capacity for "Fight, Flight or Freeze". If the correct solution falls in one of these categories, we are all set. This positive outcome arrises as a result of pure luck. The percentage of experiences in modern life that such responses are beneficial is quite low. Most of the time, higher cognitive functioning and emotional intelligence is what we need, rather than unconscious, preconditioned and stereotypical responses. I refer to successful fear as: "Saved by the Caveman within". How often is the caveman really going to help you? I choose choice. + Hmm... You obviously have put more than the usual amount of thought to this. Could you give and example of 'add a layer of "story" on to what is happening.' The caveman is of little use here. I'm mainly concerned with coping with exiting aprehension and dealing with an unexpected mal. Of course happy visualizations or going to be a waste of precious time in the air, but remembering to breathe could help prevent panic/freezing. In regards to skydiving adreneline functions more as a recreational drug than a survival aid, although the heightened awareness, quickened responses, and increased strength I can only see as helpful in dealing with a malfunction. BTW It's a pleasure chating with you. I've been to the BIGAIRSPORTZ website and read some of your articles about a year ago. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #54 December 28, 2004 QuoteA few weeks ago, while headed to the DZ, I got that queasy, uneasy pit of the stomach feeling about jumping that day. I'm not sure that I would call it fear, but it is certainly similar. I think that there were several things that made this weekend different. I'm just returning to the sport after a 5 year layoff and have around 10 current jumps. The winds were up a little and I was planning on jumping a demo canopy. Before I made it to the DZ I had decided not to jump that day and didn't. Went back this past weekend and didn't hesitate to make a couple of jumps. The only difference being the winds were much calmer. I beleive there's a difference between fear and premonition, and that it's better to err on the safe side, if that can even be called an err Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #55 December 28, 2004 QuoteQuoteA few weeks ago, while headed to the DZ, I got that queasy, uneasy pit of the stomach feeling about jumping that day. I'm not sure that I would call it fear, but it is certainly similar. I think that there were several things that made this weekend different. I'm just returning to the sport after a 5 year layoff and have around 10 current jumps. The winds were up a little and I was planning on jumping a demo canopy. Before I made it to the DZ I had decided not to jump that day and didn't. Went back this past weekend and didn't hesitate to make a couple of jumps. The only difference being the winds were much calmer. I beleive there's a difference between fear and premonition, and that it's better to err on the safe side, if that can even be called an err Right on. There are ways of knowing that occur when we really need them. The trouble is, our egos usually speak so loudly that we don't hear the wise voice in our heads telling us to back off. I have gotten off airplanes that ended up going in. I cannot tell you why, it was just what I would call a "feeling". It is through this kind of wisdom that we survive. We don't need to know where it is coming from; only that it is worth listening to. +Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #56 December 28, 2004 [reply I do not define what you are describing as "fear". That is the priliminary somatic experience of arousal. It has not been interpreted yet, and so has not affective tone. Fear is what happens when our egos get ahold of the arousal and add a layer of "story" on to what is happening. That's when things go from bad to worse. It is unarguable that fear increases our capacity for "Fight, Flight or Freeze". If the correct solution falls in one of these categories, we are all set. This positive outcome arrises as a result of pure luck. The percentage of experiences in modern life that such responses are beneficial is quite low. Most of the time, higher cognitive functioning and emotional intelligence is what we need, rather than unconscious, preconditioned and stereotypical responses. I refer to successful fear as: "Saved by the Caveman within". How often is the caveman really going to help you? I choose choice. + Hmm... You obviously have put more than the usual amount of thought to this. Could you give and example of 'add a layer of "story" on to what is happening.' The caveman is of little use here. I'm mainly concerned with coping with exiting aprehension and dealing with an unexpected mal. Of course happy visualizations or going to be a waste of precious time in the air, but remembering to breathe could help prevent panic/freezing. In regards to skydiving adreneline functions more as a recreational drug than a survival aid, although the heightened awareness, quickened responses, and increased strength I can only see as helpful in dealing with a malfunction. BTW It's a pleasure chating with you. I've been to the BIGAIRSPORTZ website and read some of your articles about a year ago. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #57 December 28, 2004 Here is how the ego creates the "story" that escalates our response into full-blown negative affect (fear): It's my first jump. I am riding to altitude, uncomfortable in the gear, squished by the legs of others, unsettled by the sound of the engines. My muscles contract. My blood vessels constrict. My heart has to work harder due to the increased resistance caused by state-specific high blood pressure. The rate of my heartbeat increases. My fists clench and my palms sweat. I fidget around, and my eyes look around wildly, not really focusing on anything in particular. All this is the somatic response to perceived danger. This is the process referred to as the "James-Lange Theory". My mind is driven by my body. By body is reacting in a stereotypical manner, and is spiraling down into a panic state. My mind notices what is happening. My mind sees the state of the body, and interprets the situation as dire, and out of control. I begin seeing danger where there is none. I am in "self-protection mode". I want to preserve my own life, but have found myself without contexually appropriate coping mechanisms. I am off the map. All I can think of is the fact that I am in unfamiliar circumstances, and that I do not know what to do. My mind races, but has nothing specific to chew on. I see problems, rather than solutions. I see myself as unable to expect what is going to happen next. I retreat inside my thinking, and my body remains in control of the situation. My neo-cortex begins to shut down. My visceral awareness of where my limbs are, and what is happening inside my body becomes diminished, and the horse is out of the barn, running for the fence. My access to the knowledge that I learned in the calmer state (in the classroom) is lost. I am drifting toward a waterfall without a paddle. So tell me again how fear is a good thing for skydivers? +Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #58 December 28, 2004 Nice example,very well put. thanxsmile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #59 December 28, 2004 QuoteHere is how the ego creates the "story" that escalates our response into full-blown negative affect (fear): It's my first jump. I am riding to altitude, uncomfortable in the gear, squished by the legs of others, unsettled by the sound of the engines. My muscles contract. My blood vessels constrict. My heart has to work harder due to the increased resistance caused by state-specific high blood pressure. The rate of my heartbeat increases. My fists clench and my palms sweat. --------- This is the low level physical reaction. Fear has triggered adreneline which has started affecting on the body --------- I fidget around, and my eyes look around wildly, not really focusing on anything in particular. ---------- This is failing to recognize fear, and failing to start dealing with it, letting it start to run away with your mind. The bodies default response is subconcious, irrational, and hysterical. Unless you take control of it, it will take control of you. This is why one must be prepared to maintain control of ones self. Otherwise the body will take control, a more primitive survival mechanism, and the mind will go bye-bye. ---------- All this is the somatic response to perceived danger. This is the process referred to as the "James-Lange Theory". My mind is driven by my body. By body is reacting in a stereotypical manner, and is spiraling down into a panic state. ------- The goal should be to steer that drive rather than to fight or subcome to it. -------- My mind notices what is happening. My mind sees the state of the body, and interprets the situation as dire, and out of control. I begin seeing danger where there is none. -------- Starting to lose rational control -------- I am in "self-protection mode". I want to preserve my own life, but have found myself without contexually appropriate coping mechanisms. I am off the map. All I can think of is the fact that I am in unfamiliar circumstances, and that I do not know what to do. My mind races, but has nothing specific to chew on. I see problems, rather than solutions. I see myself as unable to expect what is going to happen next. I retreat inside my thinking, and my body remains in control of the situation. ------------- Houston, rational control has been lost! -------------- My neo-cortex begins to shut down. My visceral awareness of where my limbs are, and what is happening inside my body becomes diminished, and the horse is out of the barn, running for the fence. My access to the knowledge that I learned in the calmer state (in the classroom) is lost. I am drifting toward a waterfall without a paddle. ---------- Hystrical catatonia, fear frozen stiff, the mind has gone somewhere else. ---------- So tell me again how fear is a good thing for skydivers? + You seem to be combining what I described as fear and an unrestrained reaction to fear together and calling that fear. Such a combination lacks a good point in regards to skydiving. This is however how the mind suppresses memories of an overwhelming event, and unless one is falling from the sky, it functions to help the psychi survive by insulating it from an otherwise seemingly uncontrollable situation. This is fear allowed to run wild. My point is that through mental training one can hopefully avoid letting things get that far out of hand, just as through physical training one can hopefully avoid letting a malfunction get too far out of hand. Thus, one needs to know what to do about malfunctions, and one needs to know what to do about fear, because they both happen. Am I making any sense here? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,410 #60 December 28, 2004 Quote My muscles contract. My blood vessels constrict. My heart has to work harder due to the increased resistance caused by state-specific high blood pressure. The rate of my heartbeat increases. My fists clench and my palms sweat. I fidget around, and my eyes look around wildly, not really focusing on anything in particular. All this is the somatic response to perceived danger. This is the process referred to as the "James-Lange Theory". My mind is driven by my body. By body is reacting in a stereotypical manner, and is spiraling down into a panic state. My mind notices what is happening. My mind sees the state of the body, and interprets the situation as dire, and out of control. I begin seeing danger where there is none. I am in "self-protection mode". I want to preserve my own life, but have found myself without contexually appropriate coping mechanisms. I am off the map. All I can think of is the fact that I am in unfamiliar circumstances, and that I do not know what to do. My mind races, but has nothing specific to chew on. I see problems, rather than solutions. I see myself as unable to expect what is going to happen next. I retreat inside my thinking, and my body remains in control of the situation. My neo-cortex begins to shut down. My visceral awareness of where my limbs are, and what is happening inside my body becomes diminished, and the horse is out of the barn, running for the fence. My access to the knowledge that I learned in the calmer state (in the classroom) is lost. I am drifting toward a waterfall without a paddle. Well, I'll be damned! Brian, you just described my first date!"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #61 December 28, 2004 QuoteWell, I'll be damned! Brian, you just described my first date! LOL, exactly, its all about stress management. The same techniques apply to any stress causing situation. Breath control, meditation and visualizations are being used to improve the performance of corporate officers to pro basketball players. Psychocybernetics and Raja(mental)yoga are among the things I have studies for this. You have to be able to fly your mind through the fear stream, as well as your body through the air stream Even with all this effort I still lose the ability to speak coherently and tend to drool in the presence of beautiful women Actually, I'm better than that now, I can get a few words out at a time, although I still carry a hankerchief just in case Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #62 December 28, 2004 I read about James-Lange Theory. I see where your getting your perspective from. They call maintain that the increase heart rate, raised blood pressure, muscular tension etc... is the actual emotion or in this case fear. From my studies in physics, I have acquired the skill of investigating a non-observabable factor through the observable reactions it causes in other things. Accordingly, I hold fear to be a non-observable factor and the the measurable physical quantities and disorientation you described as reactions to that non-observable factor. Although I maintain a different perspective than the James-Lange Theory, it is good to talk with someone that is rational and conversant about the foundations of their opinion rather than just being a butthead. Aside from our difference in the definition of fear, our approaches to dealing with it are similar, even if yours are more well defined There have been some excellent responses in this thread, I have enjoyed reading all of them. Since I have over an hour and a half in the tunnel my fear concering my first jump is about equipment failure and landing errors. That is to say, I need some more confidance in the dependability of the equipment and my ability to land a canopy. My fear was most intense when I realized that I now had sufficient ability to maneuver in free fall, and realized I was clueless about how to land. I know about the landing pattern, but somehow that fails to provide any comfort. I probably made this worse by reading the incidents forum for months in order to understand what could go wrong. It has been interesting feeling how my fear has changed, as I have gained knowledge, from freefalling to landing over the course of being a complete newbie to being able to belly (Mantis Rocks) and back fly. I'm still working on back flying actually The biggest step in my adventure, the one off the plane, remains before me to be faced in the near future, and I am just savoring every moment of anticipation. Cheers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Punky_Monkey 0 #63 December 28, 2004 Fear for me was the "Door" still hate it but learned to deal with it...The ride up I would be telling myself I can't do this. What am I doing this for? I would get down and be giddy like a little kid on x-mas. I still hate the door but had to find a way to deal with it. It started with getting for warning to when the door was going to open. JM would turn and say in about 30 seconds the door will open. After this going on for several jumps. Becoming more involved with checking my equipment I became more comfrotable. It went to what am I doing this for, I can't do this to...You did this how many times before? You and your instructor checked over your gear you know it is fine. Still hate the door but no warnings anymore and when that good all door opens I just tell myself. You can do it, you have done it and you love this once your in the air. The more exposure I got to the door the better it became. I more or less got used to the fear and it calmed down to an extent that I could deal with it. I also had fear of being off radio. What if I did something wrong. I flared at 30 feet and really scared myself even thou I could have stood that landing up. A few jumps after that they were ready to pull me off radio and I fought with them. I got to keep the radio and guess what...All of a sudden they are telling me jokes and singing to me...Still wouldn't give it up even thou I was doing it on my own. Then this weekend I kissed it good-bye...Jumped in the snow...Lost sight of the airport and couldn't find it...Made a decision to find an out found a nice big field and landed. (During landing pattern in field did find airport again) All on my own. Got back to hanger said didn't want the radio anymore. They knew I was going to land in the field and didn't say anything!!! They could have helped!!! But then again it was jump 20...Because they didn't say anything and I did it all on my own I gave it up. If they would have helped out I would probably still be reaching for the radio. In this case I think it is fear in the form of lack of confidence and when put to the test and found out I could and had done it on my own I found that confidnce and realized I could handle it. Well, that's just my fear story's and how I handled them. Still do hate that door, but no longer fear it.******* Punky Monkey You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #64 December 28, 2004 I read the other night on the Ranch's site that if you lose the radio contact during AFF, land using 1/2 brakes, without flairing, and PLF. I forgot to mention that the more I talk with experienced skydivers with hundreds or thousands of jumps, and read little tidbits like that, the more I get a sense of calm. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Punky_Monkey 0 #65 December 30, 2004 I wasn't suppose to have the radio on that jump...I do read all I can and talk to everyone I can and that does help calm me down...But until I prove to myself that I can do something I am very fearful of it...Hence why they kept telling me jokes and singing to me on the radio...They knew I could do it I just had to prove it to myself that I could do it...Guess it's a confidence issue..******* Punky Monkey You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #66 December 30, 2004 Hence why they kept telling me jokes and singing to me on the radio... That's sweet Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Punky_Monkey 0 #67 December 30, 2004 It was....It was also nice of them to let me make the decision to pull myself off of the radio...Actually since they were only telling me jokes and singing they already had pulled me..But having the security of the radio and knowing someone was there did help alot....******* Punky Monkey You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vertifly 0 #68 December 30, 2004 I learned to funnel fear early on. If fear is an emotion, which I believe that it is, then i can re-focus that emotion on my physical gear. Hence the more afraid that i become, the more safe that i am. And that's how i do it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #69 December 30, 2004 That exactly what I mean by steering it rather than trying to get rid of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WrongWay 0 #70 December 30, 2004 My way of dealing with fear is breathing and releasing all the tension in my body. I'll shake my shoulders and tell them to relax as I exhale. Sometimes I'll laugh at myself for getting stressed out, and that helps. Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BrianSGermain 1 #71 December 30, 2004 QuoteI learned to funnel fear early on. If fear is an emotion, which I believe that it is, then i can re-focus that emotion on my physical gear. Hence the more afraid that i become, the more safe that i am. And that's how i do it. We deal with fear in two ways: 1) Manipulation of Perceived Ability, which involves addressing control issues. Gear checks, knowing the spot, and staying aware of our surroundings is how we increase our perceived ability to handle the situation. 2) Direct manipulation of our arousal level. This means consciously calming ourselves down through Ujaia breathing, decreasing our musclular contraction, and de-escalating our overall emotional response. +Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #72 December 31, 2004 PS. I forgot to mention the most important thing about overcoming door fear ... Relax ... and just go with the dive flow. Relax ... aaaaah and just do it. Relax. Yes, relaxation IS the key. Don't relax to the point that you forget to look at your altimeter, but do relax and breathe and realize why it is that you returned. There has got to be something fun about it don't you think? Keep us posted on how your progression continues if it does. We've all been there at the door and after a while we just keep going back. Don't give up. Relax.Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Croc 0 #73 January 2, 2005 Perhaps you are confusing an awareness of danger with fear. Fear has no redeeming qualities, but an awareness of danger is nescessary to respond to emergencies. I suspect that it is possible to have that awareness without fear."Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so." Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #74 January 2, 2005 I thought that I had clearly stated that fear arises from the subconcious, a low level physical reaction to precieved danger, and that one must be prepared to recognize fears presence and deal conciously and effectively with it. Brian claims, according to the theory he supports, that there is a underlying universal arousal factor that is then turned into a specific emotion by the minds interpretation of the context of the situation. It is a more complex generalized perspective. When the mind interpretets danger, the universal arousal is turned into fear, "given an affective tone" of fear. He then goes on to apply fairly standard stress management techniques to deal with it: Breath control, visualization/medetation, being attentive to your gear and surroundings. I also use my own combination standard stress management techniques, taken from both old and new disiplines: Raja Yoga and Psychocybernetics etc... Our approaches to fear abatement apparently differ only in the defination of fear itself. We both then use similar standard techniques to deal with it. His perspective of fear is interesting and new to me, I have been giving it some thought lately and will probably research it more thoroughly. I follow the keep it simple approach. So, I like to keep my fundimental definitions and techniques so simple that even my subconcious can understand them. These may appear, to those who think truth has to be complicated, to be too simple. So the question that remains in my mind is that, is there practical value to be gained by defining fear as he does when his resulting techniques for dealing with fear are so similar to standard approaches. I am tending to doubt there is any additional value to be gained in regards to skydiving, however it may be useful to better understanding emotion in general. That's what I will be giving the thought to Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites arni999 0 #75 April 29, 2006 I just wanted to bring this thread back into the limelight again as it has given me many answers to questions that i have pondered over for a long time, and i wanted others to see how fear seems to affect most skydivers. i had an underlying fear after gettin gto level 6 on my AFF and then quitting due to fear (and lack of trust in my AFF instructor but thats another matter). Anyway, i hope people find this usefull again (if yo havent already read it) Happy Jumping Mikey ------------------------------------------ Fear Is Weakness Leaving Your Body Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. 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Avion 0 #62 December 28, 2004 I read about James-Lange Theory. I see where your getting your perspective from. They call maintain that the increase heart rate, raised blood pressure, muscular tension etc... is the actual emotion or in this case fear. From my studies in physics, I have acquired the skill of investigating a non-observabable factor through the observable reactions it causes in other things. Accordingly, I hold fear to be a non-observable factor and the the measurable physical quantities and disorientation you described as reactions to that non-observable factor. Although I maintain a different perspective than the James-Lange Theory, it is good to talk with someone that is rational and conversant about the foundations of their opinion rather than just being a butthead. Aside from our difference in the definition of fear, our approaches to dealing with it are similar, even if yours are more well defined There have been some excellent responses in this thread, I have enjoyed reading all of them. Since I have over an hour and a half in the tunnel my fear concering my first jump is about equipment failure and landing errors. That is to say, I need some more confidance in the dependability of the equipment and my ability to land a canopy. My fear was most intense when I realized that I now had sufficient ability to maneuver in free fall, and realized I was clueless about how to land. I know about the landing pattern, but somehow that fails to provide any comfort. I probably made this worse by reading the incidents forum for months in order to understand what could go wrong. It has been interesting feeling how my fear has changed, as I have gained knowledge, from freefalling to landing over the course of being a complete newbie to being able to belly (Mantis Rocks) and back fly. I'm still working on back flying actually The biggest step in my adventure, the one off the plane, remains before me to be faced in the near future, and I am just savoring every moment of anticipation. Cheers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Punky_Monkey 0 #63 December 28, 2004 Fear for me was the "Door" still hate it but learned to deal with it...The ride up I would be telling myself I can't do this. What am I doing this for? I would get down and be giddy like a little kid on x-mas. I still hate the door but had to find a way to deal with it. It started with getting for warning to when the door was going to open. JM would turn and say in about 30 seconds the door will open. After this going on for several jumps. Becoming more involved with checking my equipment I became more comfrotable. It went to what am I doing this for, I can't do this to...You did this how many times before? You and your instructor checked over your gear you know it is fine. Still hate the door but no warnings anymore and when that good all door opens I just tell myself. You can do it, you have done it and you love this once your in the air. The more exposure I got to the door the better it became. I more or less got used to the fear and it calmed down to an extent that I could deal with it. I also had fear of being off radio. What if I did something wrong. I flared at 30 feet and really scared myself even thou I could have stood that landing up. A few jumps after that they were ready to pull me off radio and I fought with them. I got to keep the radio and guess what...All of a sudden they are telling me jokes and singing to me...Still wouldn't give it up even thou I was doing it on my own. Then this weekend I kissed it good-bye...Jumped in the snow...Lost sight of the airport and couldn't find it...Made a decision to find an out found a nice big field and landed. (During landing pattern in field did find airport again) All on my own. Got back to hanger said didn't want the radio anymore. They knew I was going to land in the field and didn't say anything!!! They could have helped!!! But then again it was jump 20...Because they didn't say anything and I did it all on my own I gave it up. If they would have helped out I would probably still be reaching for the radio. In this case I think it is fear in the form of lack of confidence and when put to the test and found out I could and had done it on my own I found that confidnce and realized I could handle it. Well, that's just my fear story's and how I handled them. Still do hate that door, but no longer fear it.******* Punky Monkey You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #64 December 28, 2004 I read the other night on the Ranch's site that if you lose the radio contact during AFF, land using 1/2 brakes, without flairing, and PLF. I forgot to mention that the more I talk with experienced skydivers with hundreds or thousands of jumps, and read little tidbits like that, the more I get a sense of calm. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Punky_Monkey 0 #65 December 30, 2004 I wasn't suppose to have the radio on that jump...I do read all I can and talk to everyone I can and that does help calm me down...But until I prove to myself that I can do something I am very fearful of it...Hence why they kept telling me jokes and singing to me on the radio...They knew I could do it I just had to prove it to myself that I could do it...Guess it's a confidence issue..******* Punky Monkey You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #66 December 30, 2004 Hence why they kept telling me jokes and singing to me on the radio... That's sweet Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Punky_Monkey 0 #67 December 30, 2004 It was....It was also nice of them to let me make the decision to pull myself off of the radio...Actually since they were only telling me jokes and singing they already had pulled me..But having the security of the radio and knowing someone was there did help alot....******* Punky Monkey You may never get rid of the butterflies, but you can teach them how to fly in formation Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vertifly 0 #68 December 30, 2004 I learned to funnel fear early on. If fear is an emotion, which I believe that it is, then i can re-focus that emotion on my physical gear. Hence the more afraid that i become, the more safe that i am. And that's how i do it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #69 December 30, 2004 That exactly what I mean by steering it rather than trying to get rid of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites WrongWay 0 #70 December 30, 2004 My way of dealing with fear is breathing and releasing all the tension in my body. I'll shake my shoulders and tell them to relax as I exhale. Sometimes I'll laugh at myself for getting stressed out, and that helps. Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BrianSGermain 1 #71 December 30, 2004 QuoteI learned to funnel fear early on. If fear is an emotion, which I believe that it is, then i can re-focus that emotion on my physical gear. Hence the more afraid that i become, the more safe that i am. And that's how i do it. We deal with fear in two ways: 1) Manipulation of Perceived Ability, which involves addressing control issues. Gear checks, knowing the spot, and staying aware of our surroundings is how we increase our perceived ability to handle the situation. 2) Direct manipulation of our arousal level. This means consciously calming ourselves down through Ujaia breathing, decreasing our musclular contraction, and de-escalating our overall emotional response. +Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NoShitThereIWas 0 #72 December 31, 2004 PS. I forgot to mention the most important thing about overcoming door fear ... Relax ... and just go with the dive flow. Relax ... aaaaah and just do it. Relax. Yes, relaxation IS the key. Don't relax to the point that you forget to look at your altimeter, but do relax and breathe and realize why it is that you returned. There has got to be something fun about it don't you think? Keep us posted on how your progression continues if it does. We've all been there at the door and after a while we just keep going back. Don't give up. Relax.Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Croc 0 #73 January 2, 2005 Perhaps you are confusing an awareness of danger with fear. Fear has no redeeming qualities, but an awareness of danger is nescessary to respond to emergencies. I suspect that it is possible to have that awareness without fear."Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so." Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Avion 0 #74 January 2, 2005 I thought that I had clearly stated that fear arises from the subconcious, a low level physical reaction to precieved danger, and that one must be prepared to recognize fears presence and deal conciously and effectively with it. Brian claims, according to the theory he supports, that there is a underlying universal arousal factor that is then turned into a specific emotion by the minds interpretation of the context of the situation. It is a more complex generalized perspective. When the mind interpretets danger, the universal arousal is turned into fear, "given an affective tone" of fear. He then goes on to apply fairly standard stress management techniques to deal with it: Breath control, visualization/medetation, being attentive to your gear and surroundings. I also use my own combination standard stress management techniques, taken from both old and new disiplines: Raja Yoga and Psychocybernetics etc... Our approaches to fear abatement apparently differ only in the defination of fear itself. We both then use similar standard techniques to deal with it. His perspective of fear is interesting and new to me, I have been giving it some thought lately and will probably research it more thoroughly. I follow the keep it simple approach. So, I like to keep my fundimental definitions and techniques so simple that even my subconcious can understand them. These may appear, to those who think truth has to be complicated, to be too simple. So the question that remains in my mind is that, is there practical value to be gained by defining fear as he does when his resulting techniques for dealing with fear are so similar to standard approaches. I am tending to doubt there is any additional value to be gained in regards to skydiving, however it may be useful to better understanding emotion in general. That's what I will be giving the thought to Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites arni999 0 #75 April 29, 2006 I just wanted to bring this thread back into the limelight again as it has given me many answers to questions that i have pondered over for a long time, and i wanted others to see how fear seems to affect most skydivers. i had an underlying fear after gettin gto level 6 on my AFF and then quitting due to fear (and lack of trust in my AFF instructor but thats another matter). Anyway, i hope people find this usefull again (if yo havent already read it) Happy Jumping Mikey ------------------------------------------ Fear Is Weakness Leaving Your Body Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Avion 0 #69 December 30, 2004 That exactly what I mean by steering it rather than trying to get rid of it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WrongWay 0 #70 December 30, 2004 My way of dealing with fear is breathing and releasing all the tension in my body. I'll shake my shoulders and tell them to relax as I exhale. Sometimes I'll laugh at myself for getting stressed out, and that helps. Wrong Way D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451 The wiser wolf prevails. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BrianSGermain 1 #71 December 30, 2004 QuoteI learned to funnel fear early on. If fear is an emotion, which I believe that it is, then i can re-focus that emotion on my physical gear. Hence the more afraid that i become, the more safe that i am. And that's how i do it. We deal with fear in two ways: 1) Manipulation of Perceived Ability, which involves addressing control issues. Gear checks, knowing the spot, and staying aware of our surroundings is how we increase our perceived ability to handle the situation. 2) Direct manipulation of our arousal level. This means consciously calming ourselves down through Ujaia breathing, decreasing our musclular contraction, and de-escalating our overall emotional response. +Instructional Videos:www.AdventureWisdom.com Keynote Speaking:www.TranscendingFEAR.com Canopies and Courses:www.BIGAIRSPORTZ.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NoShitThereIWas 0 #72 December 31, 2004 PS. I forgot to mention the most important thing about overcoming door fear ... Relax ... and just go with the dive flow. Relax ... aaaaah and just do it. Relax. Yes, relaxation IS the key. Don't relax to the point that you forget to look at your altimeter, but do relax and breathe and realize why it is that you returned. There has got to be something fun about it don't you think? Keep us posted on how your progression continues if it does. We've all been there at the door and after a while we just keep going back. Don't give up. Relax.Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires." Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Croc 0 #73 January 2, 2005 Perhaps you are confusing an awareness of danger with fear. Fear has no redeeming qualities, but an awareness of danger is nescessary to respond to emergencies. I suspect that it is possible to have that awareness without fear."Here's a good specimen of my own wisdom. Something is so, except when it isn't so." Charles Fort, commenting on the many contradictions of astronomy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Avion 0 #74 January 2, 2005 I thought that I had clearly stated that fear arises from the subconcious, a low level physical reaction to precieved danger, and that one must be prepared to recognize fears presence and deal conciously and effectively with it. Brian claims, according to the theory he supports, that there is a underlying universal arousal factor that is then turned into a specific emotion by the minds interpretation of the context of the situation. It is a more complex generalized perspective. When the mind interpretets danger, the universal arousal is turned into fear, "given an affective tone" of fear. He then goes on to apply fairly standard stress management techniques to deal with it: Breath control, visualization/medetation, being attentive to your gear and surroundings. I also use my own combination standard stress management techniques, taken from both old and new disiplines: Raja Yoga and Psychocybernetics etc... Our approaches to fear abatement apparently differ only in the defination of fear itself. We both then use similar standard techniques to deal with it. His perspective of fear is interesting and new to me, I have been giving it some thought lately and will probably research it more thoroughly. I follow the keep it simple approach. So, I like to keep my fundimental definitions and techniques so simple that even my subconcious can understand them. These may appear, to those who think truth has to be complicated, to be too simple. So the question that remains in my mind is that, is there practical value to be gained by defining fear as he does when his resulting techniques for dealing with fear are so similar to standard approaches. I am tending to doubt there is any additional value to be gained in regards to skydiving, however it may be useful to better understanding emotion in general. That's what I will be giving the thought to Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites arni999 0 #75 April 29, 2006 I just wanted to bring this thread back into the limelight again as it has given me many answers to questions that i have pondered over for a long time, and i wanted others to see how fear seems to affect most skydivers. i had an underlying fear after gettin gto level 6 on my AFF and then quitting due to fear (and lack of trust in my AFF instructor but thats another matter). Anyway, i hope people find this usefull again (if yo havent already read it) Happy Jumping Mikey ------------------------------------------ Fear Is Weakness Leaving Your Body Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 3 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
arni999 0 #75 April 29, 2006 I just wanted to bring this thread back into the limelight again as it has given me many answers to questions that i have pondered over for a long time, and i wanted others to see how fear seems to affect most skydivers. i had an underlying fear after gettin gto level 6 on my AFF and then quitting due to fear (and lack of trust in my AFF instructor but thats another matter). Anyway, i hope people find this usefull again (if yo havent already read it) Happy Jumping Mikey ------------------------------------------ Fear Is Weakness Leaving Your Body Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
