Sport Suicide - Discussion

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Three our of four of the last deaths in the UK have been 'apparent' suicides. This is really becoming a major problem now.
Something needs to be done about this. I dont know what though.

So long as you can keep the regulating types convinced that this means the sport itself is rather 'safe,' the main damage is being done to the people witin the sport. Financial and emotional costs are high for such selfish acts.

There was a wave of suicides at a couple of the local gun ranges where people would rent guns, sometimes even get an instructor, and then kill themselves. In response they now will only rent to those that bring a weapon or a friend.

I don't know how you can screen student skydivers. They're acting squirrely enough to start with.

[bigway 4]

My point with this is that the only media i ever see in the UK about skydiving in the three years i have been here is what has turned out to be three apparent suicides.
Now, I agree with you, the dropzones where these happen must be devastated, it must put the shits up the operators taking new people on board and the financial lost this particular dropzone could suffer just coming into the UK summer could be huge. I hope it is not but i must say, i have not heard much about this in the media this time. Maybe i am not looking though.
The BPA are trying so hard to get media out there for us, i have just been speaking to the media co-ordinator last week and he is saying that television stations here are not really interested in covering skydiving, This guy is trying so hard to get good stuff out there and now this happens, this just damages everything good that could have been shown. Myself just had a proposal i have been working on for some time involving celebs over here being voted by text messages on national television to take a tandem skydive, while little segments showing stories from other jumpers how skydiving has changed their lives for the better and then putting in segments of records from around the world. A production company that has a top show over here was getting involved to back this for the proposal, as well as us having a dozen celebs already saying yes they would take part. Today i get an email from this production company saying that they can not take part in this anymore and are pulling out before it goes any further as with recent events it is not something they can be part of. I know now that my proposal is going to come back hard and hit me in the face from the network that were fairly interested in hearing more about it. Do not mistake this for me losing out, this was something i wanted to happen for the UK skydiving development.

My point is no matter how hard this country tries to put a good, safe light on this sport, how can the BPA survive if every year someone uses our sport for such a selfish act? I know there would be a long way to go yet but if much more of this continues surely skydiving to the general public is going to start looking like a portal to take your own life and then the small amount of jumpers in this country (4000) are going to have to pay the price of this with more restrictions and more health checks or even higher insurance costs, not just with the BPA but also with their life insurance.

I dont know what they can do but i sure hope they can do something to stop this. If i ever meet someone new and they know i jump they dont go "WOW", they dont go "COOL" and ask the standard Wuffo questions, they straight away refer back to the 2 suicides before this, now there is three that are in the media spot light. You can see from the reports, even the media is reffering back to previous suicides.


Sorry mods if this is not right for the forum delete if you want but this seems to be where the discussion on this is.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[pincheck 0]

There is not much you can do to prevent this kind of thing if the person doesn't show any outward sign of instability. If they do its up to the instructor to inform the dz owner who then can decide what they want to do. The very nature of this kind of thing is not advertised by the people who do it and usually will come out of the blue.

The person i feel for the most isn't the person who committed suicide, its the poor bloody instructor who dispatched and had to watch this happen. Think how upsetting it would be for them.

Billy-Sonic Haggis Flickr-Fun

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Quote

I don't know how you can screen student skydivers.

Its hard to screen anyone for suicidal thoughts. The people who actually commit suicide give almost no indication of what they are going to do. If they do its usually because the right person came along at the right time and did something to help them reconsider. Once someone is hellbent on killing themselves then they will usually find a way.

As far as what another poster said as "kicking them after they bounced" thats not only insensitive but just cold hearted. Yes it sucks that someone did that, and did it while skydiving. However until you have walked a day in his shoes, you have no idea. Suicide is wrong, and if it were a sport skydiver who went in as thier method I would think it was more hurtful to the sport. He was a wuffo, it was his first jump. He wasnt part of the skydiving world and I think that anyone who is part of this world (well most) would never consider suicide by skydiving.

Suicide is a selfish act, and affects the people left to wake up every morning. That being said, its not up to us to judge him nor his actions. Its up to us to support those who now have to live with seeing it or supporting those who know the person. Its hard to continue to be mad at someone who isnt around to try to justify their actions. Death is forever, sadly people think the pain that brings them to suicidal thoughts will last forever and they choose to make a decsion they cant take back.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[bigway 4]

Quote

As far as what another poster said as "kicking them after they bounced" thats not only insensitive but just cold hearted. Yes it sucks that someone did that, and did it while skydiving. However until you have walked a day in his shoes, you have no idea. Suicide is wrong, and if it were a sport skydiver who went in as thier method I would think it was more hurtful to the sport. He was a wuffo, it was his first jump. He wasnt part of the skydiving world and I think that anyone who is part of this world (well most) would never consider suicide by skydiving.

That was me.
I am going to edit that from what i said as you are right it is wrong. I did put in brackets that it was a figure of speech, i never felt that way, i just was trying to portray how mad i am about this.

I know suicide is very sensitive, i come from the country that has the highest teen suicide rate in the world. I have been to 9 suicide funerals of friends i grew up with and old school mates.
I had a friend kill herself when she was 16 cause she did not want to have sex with her boyfriend.

Please let me retract what i said, i know in writing it can sound very cold hearted, i more was just trying to say how mad it makes me that someone come to something i love so dearly and took ther life. It is also makes me very mad that our 'brothers' out there have to deal with this rubbish when this is not what the signed up for.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

I understand and I am sorry you have lost so many people to this silent killer. It angers me to that it happens. It angers me more that those who do commit suicide do not give family and friends a chance to help them. Sometimes the cure for those thoughts is simple. Often times people regress their emotions so much that there are few to no signs of the impending actions. When I get angry at things like suicide, I try to think of (use this guy as a example) "just how he must have felt as he cut those lines... knowing that soon he was going to die." Most people are scared to face death.... someone commiting suicide has lost all fear of the unknown because they in thier mind have felt to much fear during the known. I dont know if that makes sense but its my thoughts.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[RandomLemming 0]

Quote

My point with this is that the only media i ever see in the UK about skydiving in the three years i have been here is what has turned out to be three apparent suicides.

To be fair, just this morning I saw something skydiving related on the BBC. It was the breakfast sports presenter doing a tandem for his 1 mile charity thing.

[Richards 0]

Quote

Its hard to screen anyone for suicidal thoughts. The people who actually commit suicide give almost no indication of what they are going to do. If they do its usually because the right person came along at the right time and did something to help them reconsider. Once someone is hellbent on killing themselves then they will usually find a way.

Those are both common misconceptions about suicide. In reality most suicides do give some indication of their intent beforehand. It has also been found that often seriously suicidal people do not always find a way. With proper help they can often (not always) overcome suicidal tendencies. If you google search "suicide myths" you will get a number of sights that will confirm what I am saying.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[tnscorcoran 0]

I've a friend who works as a psychiatrist in a prison. The prison population has a notoriously high rate of suicide, as one would expect.
Yet even in such a small sample of people with such a high propensity to commit this act, it is incredibly difficut to predict who will do it when - even by highly trained and experienced professionals - psychiatrists.
There is no way screening can ever be contemplated - it would be impossible to do with any degree of accuracy.
As I see it, this incident is better than a jumper accidentally going in - this person would have killed themselves some other way if they had not chosen skydiving.

[catfishhunter 1]

A skydiver that wanted to die this way would make it look like a high speed mistake not a suicide.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[skybytch 259]

Quote

A skydiver that wanted to die this way would make it look like a high speed mistake not a suicide.

Not neccessarily. The guy I knew who did it told a friend that there was a note in his truck just before he left the plane for his hop and don't pop.

[Buried 0]

I dunno, in the end it is just a method. There are so many methods available to kill ones self. Should we start screen motocycle or auto drivers for this too?

In the end it is primarily up to the person and their friends to watch over eachother in a time such as that. Of course there are those who you would never suspect and maybe that could be drug induced too, but I just think that there is no way around it.

with that said - There should be no formal regulation or rule for that. people just need to be aware of those around us

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[bigway 4]

Quote

A skydiver that wanted to die this way would make it look like a high speed mistake not a suicide.

Where did you get that information from??

The guy in Scotland went to another dropzone away from his home dz and took his rig off in front of his mate while in freefall. (so i heard)

It seems you are pressuming that some of the incidents in this sport are suicides covered up. Are there any you are reffering to?

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[bigway 4]

I think i bought up this screening people thing.

The problem is, i was saying that it would suck if this trend was to continue cause then we would have more restrictions placed upon us such as screening and background checks, mental health reports etc.... In no way do i think this is a good idea cause i for one know i am pretty fucked up and dont want my license to be taken away

The fact is, the BPA is very strict as it is here concerning practical participation in this sport, if many more incidents like this occur surely the restrictions would get a lot more stricter.

People kill themselves many ways, but we are in a minority sport over here that is sometimes frowned upon by the public, we dont need this. If someone wants to kill themselves, do it with a belt or pills or something where they are not going to hurt a whole community in the long run.

Three years ago this Steven Hilder accident'suicide/murder happened and out of the last three deaths i have heard about over here the media has twice reverted back to telling the story of Steven Hilder. Even for some of us the way they are telling the story while speaking about the suicide is getting some of us confused with 'how did the scissors get in the car' For an average person they are going to maybe start thinking it is murder and that we murder our own. No matter what way the press tell this story the public are going to see skydiving over here as a way to kill yourself with a smile or a community full of murderers.

This is a big deal when there is only 4000 jumpers in a country and three out of four deaths in the last few years have been reported as suicides.

Needs to be treated like a big deal. When someone goes in on a regular jump, it is a big deal and we learn ways to help stop that from happening again. When someone kills themselves are we meant to just learn nothing from it so it can happen again? Just 'oh well, nothing you can do about it'

What can we do about it? I dont fucking know but there has got to be something.

A few more of these incidents over the next couple of years and my heart tells me that skydiving will not be such an easy sport to take up over here in the UK.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[catfishhunter 1]

Quote

Quote

A skydiver that wanted to die this way would make it look like a high speed mistake not a suicide.

Where did you get that information from??

The guy in Scotland went to another dropzone away from his home dz and took his rig off in front of his mate while in freefall. (so i heard)

It seems you are pressuming that some of the incidents in this sport are suicides covered up. Are there any you are reffering to?

I am not reffering to anything. A skydiver (not someone wanting to make someone else feel bad) who just had enough and wanted one last jump would go out in the least upsetting ways to those he cared about. Here is the scenario. Death at reserve line stretch would be questioned as to what happened, hard pull,baglock,lost altitude awarness etc and some may wonder about suicide but I tried to deploy the reserve so you wouldn't really give it much credence now would you?

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[steve1 5]

Quote

There is not much you can do to prevent this kind of thing if the person doesn't show any outward sign of instability.reply]

I've known a lot of skydivers who may have shown many signs of instability, but they weren't suicidal. But don't discount this either, because it could be a factor.

People who commit suicide often leave a trail of signs, before actually committing the act. If a person starts talking about their own death or suicide, don't take this lightly. That is what is on their mind, and they may be contemplating doing just that. It's almost like a cry for help that many people discount.

If you are in doubt, come right out and ask that person if they are thinking of committing suicide. This won't put the idea in their head, and they may just say yes. If they have a lethal plan in mind, it is time to get worried, and get help for that person.

These are some warning signs that come to mind:
1. Is there a history of suicide in the family
2. Males are 4 times more likely to complete an act of suicide than females. Females have a greater problem with depression but they often choose less lethal means (where there is a chance to change your mind, before dying) . Men often choose very lethal means that often have a bloody end.
3. Ethnicity...The White Race has the highest rate of suicide
4. Is there a history, present or past, of mental illness.
5. Have their been previous suicide attempts
6. Substance abuse problems or even drinking on top of depression can lead to suicide.
7. Has the client had any recent losses in their life.
8. Childhood abuse (particularly sexual abuse) is a big red flag
9. Impulsivity
10 Current physical problems
11. Big changes in their normal behavior
12. Current medications
13. Are lethal means available (Skydiving for example) Guns are often the choice of suicide. (Particularly for men)

A screening instrument may not work, because not everyone is honest on this. So this probably wouldn't help a DZ much. Counselors often talk to family members. Their imput can help greatly, if they are reliable.

Some people who commit suicide actually start feeling less depressed prior to the act. So a lift in spirits is not always a good sign.

If a person starts giving away their stuff this can be a red flag.

One more thing...May has the highest rate of suicide of any month.

These are some facts that come to mind, (when evaluating suicide). I may have missed some others that are important. I'm just a school counselor so I refer any student out who meets some of these criteria and a Psychologist makes the hard decision of what to do next.

If a student is talking about suicide and has a plan...I get them help. Suicide is very preventable in most cases, if they can get the help they need.

It's interesting to note that even most normal people have felt suicidal at some time in their life. If this feeling persists or keeps coming back get yourself help.

Most people may have little insight on this problem. It's hard to imagine why or how anyone could take their own life. Depression can cause great disability and is a huge killer. According to the World Health Organization 1.53 million people will kill themselves in the year 2020....Steve1

• Quote

[jumpingjimmy 0]

why have my posts been removed?

[billvon 2,442]

>why have my posts been removed?

A few postd have been deleted as a result of some PA's. I went one post too far back in the thread, and ended up deleting one of your posts that was fine - sorry about that. Here it is:

---------------

(JJ said)

I agree with the "kick them as they bounce" comment.... what would be better is if you get the timing just right and drop kick them as they bounce and try and get them over the club house... kind of like a conversion in rugby

personally, i don't see it as a big deal that people want to commit suicide by skydiving, it's up to them how they do it. has student numbers dropped since Steven Hilder? Have tandem numbers dropped since Steven Hilder? i'd guess at not to be honest. i would even go as far to say that it would attract more people to tandems just because it's brought tandems to their attention. how many people who are thinking of taking up skydiving think "hey, i want to take up skydiving but i'm not sure if its safe or not... but wait, i remember Steven Hilder killing himself so i think i'll not take it up now"

i mean come on..... people know it's a dangerous sport, Steven Hilder is just curiosity for people, his suicide would have not made a blind bit of difference in stopping people taking this up.

[jumpingjimmy 0]

thanks
i didn't notice any PA's i must pay attention a bit more

i seriously don't think anything can, or even should be done to stop suicides in sport. if you're help bent on killing yourself, you'll only go and find another way if some do-gooder stops you. i think suicide is terrible, but i'm all for letting people commit it if they want to... i think we are too hung up on life is golden in todays society. If you're so depressed that you want to kill yourself, what right has anybody else to say you can't do it? it's your life, you have the right to end it if you want.

[Ron 7]

Quote

A skydiver (not someone wanting to make someone else feel bad) who just had enough and wanted one last jump would go out in the least upsetting ways to those he cared about

So not true. At that point they are not thinking about others.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

Quote

I think that anyone who is part of this world (well most) would never consider suicide by skydiving.

Not true. Many think of it as a way to go out in the sport they loved. There are a good number of high experienced jumpers that have killed themselves in the sport.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Trae 1]

in reply to "this screening people thing. "
....................................

I saw a guy once who wasn't allowed to jump because people thought he was a suicide risk.

He was devastated by this treatment.

Talking to him afterwards it was clear to me that he was just like any other person really wanting to skydive. He may have been a suicide risk,(I tried not to judge the poor bloke,) but it seemed more that he was a very problematic student and that his instructors just couldn't handle him.

There had been a couple of bounces in the recent past and evryone was a bit overly sensitive and jumping at shadows. I also feel there was a bit of an attempt to rush to shut the gate after the horse had already bolted.

People started looking at each other and particularly strangers with newly acquired suspicous eyes. A fair bit of amateur social psyching became common place.

DZ's as psych evaluation centres just don't cut it somehow .

Too many pots calling the kettle black.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

I think that anyone who is part of this world (well most) would never consider suicide by skydiving.

Not true. Many think of it as a way to go out in the sport they loved. There are a good number of high experienced jumpers that have killed themselves in the sport.

Were I faced with a terminal illness and the accompanying few weeks of pointless existence, I'd certainly think about going out on my terms, in the air or under the water. Though I'd want to do it in a way that doesn't put others out.

[jumpingjimmy 0]

i think people are wrong to say suicide is the cowards way out, to me, its quite the opposite. I'm sure it must take guts to face such a decision and to go through with it

[catfishhunter 1]

Quote

Quote

A skydiver (not someone wanting to make someone else feel bad) who just had enough and wanted one last jump would go out in the least upsetting ways to those he cared about

So not true. At that point they are not thinking about others.

Oh? Which would you prefer some sad suicide note leaving everyone thinking they could have done something to stop it and spend the rest of their lives questioning everything they did/didn't do or grieve at what they only know to be a tragic accident.

Ron I respect your opinions. You one of the few people I pay attention to when they post about jumping. I see where your coming from and your right going out period is selfish but if one could easy the pain of ones loved ones after they have made up there minds, it is by far a better choice from my perspective. And that would be the last selfhless act amongst a sea of selfishness........

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.