wind

[degarmo 0]

This may just be the stupidest question ever asked, but...when you are under canopy and cant see the socks or their are no other jumpers, or you land first etc. why cant I tell wind direction from, say 3,500ft or so? Im currently doing static jumps, and its apparant to me that Im just missing something here...any advice?

WHAT A DIZZY DANCE~SINKIN INTO SWEET UNCERTAINTY

[pilotdave 0]

Most of the time the wind direction is pretty much the same before you get on the plane as it is when you land. One trick is to face into the wind on the ground and see where the sun is. It'll be in about the same direction under canopy when you're facing into the wind.

Dave

[arai 0]

well apart from seeing socks, you can notice smoke column directions, waves on the water etc, but you should be able to stay over the dz until you can see the socks. I think they have to be visible from a 1000 feet.

In the pff course they mentioned to me flying your canopy in a box and watching the ground for winddrift.

ei pick a landmark and try and fly yourcanopy straight for a few seconds, look through your legs and notice if you are drifting off that straight line relative to the ground, then turn 90 degrees and do it again. once you have flown your box pattern you should be able to find a good indication of your wind direction and strength by how each leg of your turn was affected by drift. The box allows you to get a good idea because if you just flew east and got pushed to the north, the wind could be from the south, southeast, or southwest. But by flying the box (or at least more than 1 leg) you can narrow down the wind direction.

apart from that you should have an initial guess because you looked at the sock *before* you entered the aircraft, and during the plane ride up ... right?

[waltappel 1]

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This may just be the stupidest question ever asked, but...when you are under canopy and cant see the socks or their are no other jumpers, or you land first etc. why cant I tell wind direction from, say 3,500ft or so? Im currently doing static jumps, and its apparant to me that Im just missing something here...any advice?

It's easy.

Pull down on both toggles slowly until you hear the wind noise get very quiet. Be careful, though, if you pull too far the canopy will stall and, while fun, you may consider it a bit unnerving.

Anyway, with your canopy speed very slowed down, look between your feet at the ground below and watch the direction that your canopy tends to drift. This technique works anywhere and anytime you can see the ground.

Before you try it, talk with your instructor about stalls and flying your canopy in deep brakes. Tell him/her you want to try this technique.

Walt

[Reginald 0]

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It's easy.

Pull down on both toggles slowly until you hear the wind noise get very quiet. Be careful, though, if you pull too far the canopy will stall and, while fun, you may consider it a bit unnerving.

Anyway, with your canopy speed very slowed down, look between your feet at the ground below and watch the direction that your canopy tends to drift. This technique works anywhere and anytime you can see the ground.

Before you try it, talk with your instructor about stalls and flying your canopy in deep brakes. Tell him/her you want to try this technique.

Walt

Well usually it's half brakes but more importantly this does nothing to tell a person about the ground winds. This is called an "upper wind assessment" and rarely are the uppers and the ground winds the same direction....

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[waltappel 1]

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It's easy.

Pull down on both toggles slowly until you hear the wind noise get very quiet. Be careful, though, if you pull too far the canopy will stall and, while fun, you may consider it a bit unnerving.

Anyway, with your canopy speed very slowed down, look between your feet at the ground below and watch the direction that your canopy tends to drift. This technique works anywhere and anytime you can see the ground.

Before you try it, talk with your instructor about stalls and flying your canopy in deep brakes. Tell him/her you want to try this technique.

Walt

Well usually it's half brakes but more importantly this does nothing to tell a person about the ground winds. This is called an "upper wind assessment" and rarely are the uppers and the ground winds the same direction....

You bring up a good point.

You can use the technique at pretty much any altitude, and while the ground winds and uppers are often in different directions it's unusual (at least in my experience) for them to be in drastically different directions. That can and does happen, though, so I always look for indicators all the way down.

Walt

[davelepka 4]

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its apparant to me that Im just missing something here...any advice?

What you're missing is a better understanding of the jump you are about to make. Before you board the plane, make sure you know the following - wind speed and direction, direction of jump run, your intended exit/opening position, and your intended landing area, and the pattern you will use to get there.

Before you leave the plane, and once you are under canopy, make sure you know where the DZ is. Combine this with the information you gathered before the jump, and you should have no problem figuring out where to go, and what to do.

[degarmo 0]

Thank You. I believe a better understanding of the jump Im about to make is the obvious first, along with the other excellent techniques mentioned here should certainly give me some food for thought. Thanks guys!

WHAT A DIZZY DANCE~SINKIN INTO SWEET UNCERTAINTY

[mjosparky 3]

Make up something like this check sheet and fill it out before each jump. The act of filling it out makes it much easier to remember the facts.

Jump planner

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Peej 0]

I was taught on my canopy course a while back that you can also point your canopy in one direction and take note of how fast you are going. Then steer it in the other direction and focus on how fast you're going. The faster direction is down wind.

It's importnat that you only do this above 2000 feet. I'd hate to have you trying to do this low to the ground.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[MB38 0]

When I'm too high to see the flags, I look at the swoop pond. Generally one side of the pond will be smooth and the other side will have waves/ripples. The smooth side is the direction the wind is coming from.

The attached picture is a crop of a picture taken at 4,200 feet. Note the smooth areas on the left-most sides of the pond versus the choppier water on the right-most sides.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[BRYANGOESBOOM 0]

You must have really good vision

Not only will you look better, feel better, and fuck better; you'll have significantly increased your life expectancy. --Douva

[kallend 1,644]

Jumping at Skydive Chicago yesterday, on my 2nd jump (birdman solo, so no-one else around when I landed) the wind tee and flag near the hangar indicated NE wind. The wind sock half way down the runway indicated west, and the flag at the south end of the landing area indicated south. So I landed southeast!

I thought only Perris and Eloy had this problem.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Well usually it's half brakes but more importantly this does nothing to tell a person about the ground winds. This is called an "upper wind assessment" and rarely are the uppers and the ground winds the same direction....

Rarely? Although the uppers (12K feet) are often up to 90 degrees off from ground winds, the winds aloft at 2-3K feet are usually very close in direction to the ground winds. Occasionally I'll see wind shears ( a reversal in direction or sudden change in velocity) below 2000 feet, but it's unusual where I jump. The wind drift method was very handy to determine ground winds back in the day of round chutes. Of course, it was much more obvious under a round chute whhich way the wind was blowing.

[Reginald 0]

Must be nice to jump in such a docile climate. Of course ‘round these parts we use a chain for a wind sock...

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[waltappel 1]

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You must have really good vision

You may need to lower your screen resolution to see it, but it clearly shows a boundary of calm water along the edge where the wind is coming from and a bunch of ripples on the water downwind of the calm water.

The pond, or whatever it is, is square, and that makes it a bit tricker to get wind direction from than an irregularly shaped pond, but you can still get the idea.

Long, skinny swoop ponds won't be any help. You need a larger body of water to use as a wind indicator.

While water certainly does work and I do use it if there is some around, I consider watching your direction of drift from deep brakes to be the most reliable because it always works the same and doesn't rely on any particular type of land feature or finding a smokestack or anything like that.

Walt

[degarmo 0]

Perfect...just what I needed...I DO need a better understanding of the jump...if I made sure I knew that info prior to and while during the jump, you're right, there shouldn't BE any question as to what to do or where to go. But, ha ha knowing me, I'll find one or two to ask...I truly appreciate the time you (all) give here...couldn't do it without ya...

WHAT A DIZZY DANCE~SINKIN INTO SWEET UNCERTAINTY

[kelpdiver 2]

don't presume that the wind on the LZ prior to takeoff is what the wind will be when your parachute opens.

[degarmo 0]

ok now Im just confused...help!!

WHAT A DIZZY DANCE~SINKIN INTO SWEET UNCERTAINTY

[davelepka 4]

Help has arrived - pay no attention to kelpdiver.

Yes, the wind can shift, and typically, the shift will be less than 15 or 20 degrees either way. Your plan will not change until maybe when you are on the downwind leg of your landing pattern. At this point take a look at the wind sock, and if it has shifted a bit, you can over or under turn your turn to final to line up with the wind.

Wind shifts greater than this are on very light wind days, often times conditions will be stated as light and variable. On these days, confer with an instructor when making a flight plan to see what the DZ policy is on this.

Some DZs will pick a direction, and thats the way you land all day. In this case it's easy to make and use a plan.

Other will have you follow the first jumper down. In this case, you will still know your exit/opening points before the jump, and make up two plans to cover the two directions you are most likely to be landing. Under canopy, once you see the direction others are going, simply follow the appropriate plan.

The more you work with these factors, and see how one thing leads to another, the easier it will be to make a plan. Soon enough you won't have to write anything down, and at some point just a glance at the wind sock on the way to plane will be enough. There are times that I don't even do that anymore.

Figure on writing stuff down for 30 to 50 jumps, and ease into doing the figuring in your head. Try to log 1000 jumps or so before you ignore the windsock.

[kelpdiver 2]

He asked what do to do if he couldn't see other jumpers or windsocks. IE - an off landing. Or maybe everyone else is doing a tracking dive after him. I don't think your advice does that question justice. And presuming winds will hold is just wrong. I'm very interested in effective ways to make a determination on wind - deep brakes seems the most useful approach so far discussed.

This weekend I saw winds reverse 180 from my landing to walking in. In that case, yeah, it was the light and variable stuff and so long as someone doesn't choose to freak out and do a low turn into the wind (which we know happens a lot), no great harm would be done in landing the wrong way.

But during the night jump (planned jumps) at the Byron boogie, it went from light and variable to 15+ during our flight. I went too deep and didn't make it back, turning 90 to avoid the canal. Another guy or three landing by the runway.

Some DZs are very predictable with wind direction and speed. Many are not.

[davelepka 4]

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He asked what do to do if he couldn't see other jumpers or windsocks. IE - an off landing.

Read the thread. I explained how he could inform himself so he knows what he will do before the plane takes off.

Unless his off ifeld landing is 300 miles from the DZ, proper flight planning will have him well infomed and ready for all sorts of eventualities.

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I'm very interested in effective ways to make a determination on wind - deep brakes seems the most useful approach so far discussed.

Thats a useful approach if you find yourself under-informed. If you are aware of wind direction, jump run direction, and your exit point relative to the DZ, you don't need to land on the DZ to know which way is into the wind. You don't even need any outside indicators (water, smoke, etc.).

As far as your night jump example, if the winds went from L&V to 15+ during the course of a ride to altitude, the conditions were not condusive to making a night jump.

In the unlikely event that rouge winds gusted to 15+, at night, ground personel should contacted the pilot via aircraft radio, both for the safety of the jumpers and the pilot.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Thats a useful approach if you find yourself under-informed. If you are aware of wind direction, jump run direction, and your exit point relative to the DZ, you don't need to land on the DZ to know which way is into the wind. You don't even need any outside indicators (water, smoke, etc.).

Thanks for choosing to be adversarial rather than answering the questions, Dave. That's a useful approach.

Sorry - it's bullshit. If you rely on LZ wind prior to takeout and jump run direction, you're under informed. (The latter makes as much sense as relying on the pilot's GPS)

[davelepka 4]

OK, so your opinion is that I'm A) adversarial, and B) not really offering a complete answer.

I'd like, then, to take this oppertunity to point out that your post was both adversarial -

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- it's bullshit.

-and at the same time didn't provide and facts to back up your opposition to my posts.

That aside, what do feel is lacking from my proposed flight plan? If you know the location of the DZ, and location of the exit point, you have directional awareness. Combine this with your knowledge of the wind speed and direction, and bingo, you're informed. You know where you are, where the DZ is, which direction to face for landing, and how for downwind to get before turning onto final. What more do want?

In the case of L&V winds, the direction you land is becomes only relevant for the sake of working with traffic over and around the DZ. If you're landing off, the direction has no meaning.

Are there days when the wind is up, and shifting a significant amount? Yes there are. Are they in the minority in terms of weather phenomenon? Yes they are. Do they predominatly occur on days with a high level of atmospheric instability? Yes they do. The same type of days when skydiving, especially for a newer jumper, might not be a good idea? Yep, those are the days.

So really, what's your problem? This issue here, I got it covered. Trust me. For longer than you've been jumping, I've been thinking about how to relate the nuts and bolts of canopy flight to newbies.

You keep focusing on how to figure out wind direction from under canopy. I'm telling you, figure it out before you take off. How far off field are oyu that you can't see the DZ as a reference? Why would you jump out on that type of spot? Getting out of the plane would have been your mistake. Instead of teaching jumpers how to dig themselves out of the trouble they get into, why not teach them to stay out of that trouble in the first place.

A guy with a written flight plan will have an active role in the jump operations. When they get to the door they will check that what they see matches what they planned on seeing. If it's that different than what they expect, they won't jump. See?

If they jump anyway? They're an idiot, and couldn't think their way out of a paper bag, let alone determine wind speed or direction from under canopy.

[speedy 0]

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The latter makes as much sense as relying on the pilot's GPS

Which most jumpers seem to do

Knowing the ground wind direction at take off, jump run direction and your exit point relative to the DZ are important in my opinion. It's not enough, but at least it's a start.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl