evilivan 0 #1 August 6, 2004 OK, first the small print.... I attended the UK Nationals this past weekend, and being forced to stay on the ground due to an injury I was in a position to observe people under canopy more so then usual. Two things stood out so much that I thought it worth mentioning here: 1) Congestion over the landing area: People seem to be in such a rush to get to finals as soon as possible. With only three 4-way teams on each load, it was very easy to observe how the groups were landing in relation to each other, and more often then not groups 2 and 3 would spiral down and join group 1 at the 1000ft mark over the landing area, resulting in lots of congestion..... This is really really stupid, even more so because of how avoidable it is. If you are not first out or have a lightly loaded canopy - don't try and land first!! I often saw a high performance canopy setting up for landing, when a much bigger canopy spiralled down and then floated around in the airspace..... Collisions are bad at the best of times, but if it happens below 1000ft when the pilots are concentrating on landing its almost guaranteed to be fatal. 2) Camera flyer deployment altitude Fortunately this wasn't as bad/regular as the above, but I saw several camera flyers deploying at the same time as the team - i.e. going down the middle as the team tracked off and opening when they do. This halves the horizontal separation between the camera flyer and all the team members - I have seen multiple broken ribs and internal injuries as a result of this (not at this meet). The whole point of the camera flyer dumping in place is that they do it when the team tracks off, creating vertical separation... Sermon over Ivan Edited to add: I know that I only briefly touched on wing loading as part of the landing issue, and that this also has a big bearing on the landing order. Edited (again) to add: this was not specific to the UK Nationals, it was just that I has the unusual experience (for me) of spending a lot of time at a busy DZ on the ground. Edited (again again) to add: just read this back, and damn! I sound very up me own arse. Sorry about that... Still think they are important safety points though, so I'm leaving it."If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation." David Brent Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
towerrat 0 #2 August 6, 2004 ***) Congestion over the landing area: People seem to be in such a rush to get to finals as soon as possible. With only three 4-way teams on each load, it was very easy to observe how the groups were landing in relation to each other, and more often then not groups 2 and 3 would spiral down and join group 1 at the 1000ft mark over the landing area, resulting in lots of congestion..... This is really really stupid, even more so because of how avoidable it is. If you are not first out or have a lightly loaded canopy - don't try and land first!! I often saw a high performance canopy setting up for landing, when a much bigger canopy spiralled down and then floated around in the airspace..... Collisions are bad at the best of times, but if it happens below 1000ft when the pilots are concentrating on landing its almost guaranteed to be fatal. ----------------------------------------------------------- just to add to this, one of the thing I've noticed on our DZ is that jumpers tend to jump in groups with similar experience. This includes canopy experience, and wingload. It happens a lot that there will be a larger group of RW flyers with largish canopies followed by a group of highly experienced freeflyers with tiny canopies. This tends to make for congestion in the pattern, and I've seen it get pretty scary.Play stupid games, win stupid prizes! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #3 August 6, 2004 QuoteWith only three 4-way teams on each load, it was very easy to observe how the groups were landing in relation to each other, and more often then not groups 2 and 3 would spiral down and join group 1 at the 1000ft mark over the landing area, resulting in lots of congestion..... That's a pet peeve of mine also. I jump a big, slow canopy, so I can interfere with the long swoops that the people with high performance canopies like to make. Yet people spiral down to my level, and then gripe about me being in their way on final approach. Doh! One should begin their landing strategy the moment their parachute opens. If you want the landing area to yourself, then seek out an altitude that no one else is using. If you spiral down to the same level of others, you have no right to bitch about traffic. And if you see someone trying to "get away" from you, by spiraling or floating - let him! Don't mimic his actions to stay with him. He's trying to get away from you for a good reason! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,427 #4 August 6, 2004 >That's a pet peeve of mine also. I jump a big, slow canopy, so I can >interfere with the long swoops that the people with high performance >canopies like to make. Yet people spiral down to my level, and then gripe >about me being in their way on final approach. How does this happen? I would think that (assuming opening at similar levels) spiraling by smaller canopies would put them far beneath you. I often spiral down after big-ways because, at almost 2:1, I can be one of the first down and basically "get out of the way" of everyone else. The high pullers (camera) and large canopies land last. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skreamer 1 #5 August 6, 2004 Quotejust read this back, and damn! I sound very up me own arse. Sorry about that... Why apologize for giving good advice? Hell, the advice you gave me recently was sound, my motivations weren't (expect some out of hours calls soon... ). So did you do the BPA thing and give all the offending canopy pilots a public bollocking when they landed? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
D22369 0 #6 August 6, 2004 Yet people spiral down to my level, and then gripe about me being in their way on final approach. Doh! *** When I am flying video for tandems I usually pull around 4-5000' (depends on what alt the tandem pulls at) If you fly a large low wingloaded canopy and pull at 2500' or higher and fly a relatively relaxed pattern (ie: no spirals), I can easily join you without my doing a single spiral, my wingloading is 2-1 and my canopy is quite ground hungry when the brakes are released. BUUUUTTT......you are low and slow, and unless the rules have changed that means technically you have the right of way..... I hook when I can, and dont when there is traffic, I hate when I have to land "normal".... but I dont bitch about it. RoyThey say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deuce 1 #7 August 7, 2004 Quoteonly three 4-way teams on each load That's 15 skydivers a load, right? With camera? Two things: one, in the bigger picture, that is not a lot of skydivers if everybody follows the rules. Two, what were the rules. Bill's statement about spiralling down out of big ways is different than the rules I had to follow at the sequential record last April, and the Herc boogie that we just finished. Rules there were 90 degree turns only (I got dinged for doing a flat 180 at Herc, one more and I'd have gotten axed) no spiraling down, no hooks. So, at Herc, we had 40+ skydivers in each narrow landing area, and at Z-hills we had 130-something (at the beginning) landing in one very big landing area. So, 15 way should be able to play nice in one landing area, and however many it is should all follow the rules (whatever they may be) Most RW folks want to see the initiation of the track as it is an important part of the skydive. Even if the camera flier pulls at the same altitude as the competitors, the camera flier should have just as much separation as everybody else, if they have decent tracking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #8 August 8, 2004 Quote>That's a pet peeve of mine also. I jump a big, slow canopy, so I can >interfere with the long swoops that the people with high performance >canopies like to make. Yet people spiral down to my level, and then gripe >about me being in their way on final approach. How does this happen? I would think that (assuming opening at similar levels) spiraling by smaller canopies would put them far beneath you. The high pullers (camera) and large canopies land last. For people on the same formation with me, yes, I'm usually the last to land, and they aren't a problem. The usual interference is from people further back in the Otter, such as free-flyers, tandem cameramen, etc. Basically, guys that open higher, but want to get to the ground fast. They come out of the sky blowing by me. I'm not bitchin' about that - they have a right to their own landing style. I always appreciate a little wave or leg-kick, as a sign of recognition that they know I'm there. That helps me feel better that they aren't going to hook a turn into me without realizing I'm there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakydiver 0 #9 August 9, 2004 "It happens a lot that there will be a larger group of RW flyers with largish canopies followed by a group of highly experienced freeflyers with tiny canopies. " lol What you think RWers don't have pocket rockets?? That is honestly one of the funniest statements I've seen on DZ.com period. -- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." -- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JKT 0 #10 August 10, 2004 I guess what they are implying is that the latter group(s) of RW are likely to be lower experienced jumpers (e.g. solos/two ways/early four ways) who are much more likely to have relatively large canopies. The first group(s) of freeflyers are likely to be experienced jumpers so vice versa... FWIW, the latest issue of the UK's skydive mag has an article about the introduction of a new BPA Canopy Handling rating system (presumably requiring some "official" instruction to go along with it). I suspect/hope that these types of issues are going to be a part of the instruction.----- Official 100 jump wonder Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
obelixtim 100 #11 August 12, 2004 The BPA thing will be to form a committee to look into it for 6 months, then make 100 recommendations about what should be done by someone..... Probably come up with a rule that inconvieniences the maximum number of people for the minimum amount of safety for the most amount of time..... Then find that nobody takes any notice of the rule apart from some poor sap of a student who complies, then gets bollocked for nothing.... True to form.....My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
evilivan 0 #12 August 12, 2004 Quote The BPA thing will be to form a committee to look into it for 6 months, then make 100 recommendations about what should be done by someone..... Probably come up with a rule that inconvieniences the maximum number of people for the minimum amount of safety for the most amount of time..... Then find that nobody takes any notice of the rule apart from some poor sap of a student who complies, then gets bollocked for nothing.... True to form..... Something wrong with the date on this posting, it should be reading about 5 yrs into the future....."If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation." David Brent Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
