Not planned - dumping in place - reason to get upset?

[motorheaddown 0]

Sorry for the spam, but I need some feedback whether or not I'm justified feeling pissed.

Twice over the last couple of months, one of my teammates pulled in place while me and our third teammate tracked off. The guy who dumped in place did it because our spot was pretty long, and he's been injured in the past landing off.

It bugs me for two reasons: 1) It's just plain unsafe. It doesn't follow our dive plan, and if someone else dumps in place (which I won't) it creates a real hazard. 2) It's selfish and not indicative of a team player. So what if he gets back to the DZ; he's not going to jump until EVERYONE from the team lands, is packed, and is ready to go on the next load.

My two best skydiving friends died 5 years in a double fatality because they collided under canopy, and recently we had two very experienced jumpers survive a canopy collision because they didn't track their asses off. The option of landing off versus dying is a no-brainer, IMO. Unfortunately, I just don't think he gets it.

I kinda got in his face about dumping in place, but he didn't apologize until the next day. When I first told him why it bothered me, he just said "thanks".

Don't get me wrong... he's a good guy, and I do trust him. But I just don't think he gets the whole "team" concept.

Would you be pissed? Am I off base? How would you handle bringing it up?

Thanks,
-scott

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Be pissed because it could kill someone.Do you have a cameraman??I would not trust him as far as I could throw him.He will throw you under the bus if it means him coming out all right.


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[CSpenceFLY 1]

One more thought.If you have an off heading opening and he has a mal. where does that put you???


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[JohanW 0]

If there's a camera on the jump, there's no discussion possible - the camera gets to dump in place. Everyone else tracks off. If there's no camera, you could plan for one person to pull in place - but having everyone track creates more separation overall. If you didn't plan it this way - dive the plan. If more than one person decides to pull in place - you fill in the blanks. There might be two blanks to fill in

If he's having issues landing off, address those. Plan to land together, whether on the DZ or out.

While being pissed might not produce the desired result, I wouldn't say you're way off base here. But do try to get him to see the error of his ways - and if it takes having someone else talk to him, have someone else talk to him (with him).

It is a safety issue, so it should be taken seriously, by him and you. Just yelling at each other isn't going to do much good.

Johan.
I am. I think.

[motorheaddown 0]

We have camera - it's a freefly team, but the camera guy always tracks off both in our free round and speed round jumps.

I took him aside and kept my voice down after cooling off a bit. So, I did the best I could about keeping my composure. I was just stunned that he did it again. That's bugging me, too.

-scott

[billvon 2,435]

>Would you be pissed?

Nope, I'd just talk to him about it. If he said "hey, I dump in place, that's what I do because of X, Y and Z" then I could either decide I was OK with that, or that I wasn't OK (and thus wouldn't jump with him any more.)

If he said "OK, then I won't dump in place any more" then great.

If he says "OK, I'll fix that" and _then_ keeps dumping in place, then I'd get annoyed.

>How would you handle bringing it up?

"Handle" it? What's there to handle? Ask him about it and tell him your concerns. This isn't something you have to tiptoe around.

There is nothing inherently wrong with one team member dumping in place and the rest tracking off; it's what most 4-way teams do with their cameraman. But it does have to be planned beforehand.

[motorheaddown 0]

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>Would you be pissed?

Nope, I'd just talk to him about it. If he said "hey, I dump in place, that's what I do because of X, Y and Z" then I could either decide I was OK with that, or that I wasn't OK (and thus wouldn't jump with him any more.)

If he said "OK, then I won't dump in place any more" then great.

If he says "OK, I'll fix that" and _then_ keeps dumping in place, then I'd get annoyed.

>How would you handle bringing it up?

"Handle" it? What's there to handle? Ask him about it and tell him your concerns. This isn't something you have to tiptoe around.

There is nothing inherently wrong with one team member dumping in place and the rest tracking off; it's what most 4-way teams do with their cameraman. But it does have to be planned beforehand.

All good advice. Thank you very much!
-scott

[sundevil777 94]

It seems that it may now be a habit.

I would demand that he break the habit, or else face a violent reaction.

No pussyfooting around the subject is needed, in my opinion. That sort of tolerance will only allow him to rationalize his selfishness.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,435]

>I would demand that he break the habit . . .

Why? Do you see anything wrong with having one jumper pull in place, provided it is planned for? I've been on a _lot_ of dives where that is done, for reasons ranging from a new canopy, to a breakoff signal, to a new jumper who's nervous about opening low.

[recovercrachead 0]

If he does it again, Pull his silver handle on the next jump. Then he will stop.

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[CSpenceFLY 1]

The topic of this thread says "Not planned"


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[sundevil777 94]

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>I would demand that he break the habit . . .

Why? Do you see anything wrong with having one jumper pull in place, provided it is planned for? I've been on a _lot_ of dives where that is done, for reasons ranging from a new canopy, to a breakoff signal, to a new jumper who's nervous about opening low.

Nothing wrong when it is planned, but it is a habit for the guy in question. He's likely to do it when it is not planned.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[flyangel2 2]

Well, it sounds like it's a four way team. A four way team needs to get along since they are spending so much time together.

I agree, the pulling in place is not planned. It sounds like the OP talked to his teammate and now hopefully it's worked out.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[motorheaddown 0]

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We have camera - it's a freefly team, but the camera guy always tracks off both in our free round and speed round jumps.

I took him aside and kept my voice down after cooling off a bit. So, I did the best I could about keeping my composure. I was just stunned that he did it again. That's bugging me, too.

-scott

As mentioned above, we are a freefly team. Dumping in place was NOT planned. That's what bugs me the most. I talked to him about it after the first time, but he dumped-in-place again last weekend. That's when I got a little pissed.

We're also fairly experienced. We both have 1200+ jumps; so, he should know better.

-scott

[ntacfreefly 0]

Alternatively, if he likes dumping in place so much and your cameraman likes to track - plan for him to dump in place instead of the cameraman.

There should be plenty of sky for 3 people, with 2 tracking in opposite directions if he takes the 'camera role' at pull time.

edit: And for all the 'pull the silver' or 'violent reaction' folks out there - do people a favor and stay off teams if that's how you deal with your teammates. Try communicating (not directed at the original poster).

Blues,
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[chaoskitty 0]

I'm not a super experienced freeflyer so this may be a silly question.. but lets say you're head down at break off. This guy is just bellying out and pulling in place? You want to belly out long enough to slow down from the ff speeds.. why not take that time to track anyway?

Maybe he is a weak tracker and thats the source of the problem?
Either way, everyone on the team should know what everyone else is doing at break off, particularly if one is pulling in place.

[pchapman 262]

I'd like to hear the answer to chaoskitty's question!

Another fairly obvious but unanswered issue is why the center puller didn't track off high, before dumping. That would remove the safety issue of pulling in place, and leave only the issue of how the team works together given that one person is wary of off-landings.

The center puller might only have noticed the bad spot late in the dive, or was trying to stick to the plan for the working part of the dive, before getting a little extra deployment altitude for himself while others were tracking.

[78RATS 0]

You also need a cool ending to your free round. Pulling in place may not be what the judges are looking for.

Scoring is the priority.

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[rehmwa 2]

1 - if you have a cameraman, then that a very bad thing. (I'm speaking from RW where the camera is always above). For VRW, the camera is likely below, so it might be different.

2 - if no camera, it then depends on who's on the jump. If it's all people that fly well and have good communication, then it's not a problem, the dump in place person will be much higher than the other 3 and not a problem at all. Heck, if planned, it's a very good idea.

3 - I don't like impromptu actions if it's bigger than 4 people. why 4 and not 5 or 6? just my threshold for dealing with the unexpected sits there....

But, if he ever has a mal or another issue, it's less likely the teammates will notice him and follow his stuff down.

It's no more a biggie to me than having a teammate that's just lousy at tracking but tries hard (been there, done that). In that case, I'd rather he did just open at a different altitude.

Stay aware and always know where your teammates are and don't let the little things bug you.

(I'd ignore all the "flip, tough guy" responses here. People aren't that big of dopes in real life).

The only way it would piss me off (if he's not endangering our cameraman) is if he opens high and then spirals down into us once he realizes the spot is good. IF he's higher, then he needs to stay in a good pattern.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[motorheaddown 0]

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You also need a cool ending to your free round. Pulling in place may not be what the judges are looking for.

Scoring is the priority.

Agreed. Our planned ending is to link in a head-down/stand totem and spiral past the camera as he floats up past us creating a real sense of speed. So, the cameraman is actually the only one who can pull in place.

-scott

[recovercrachead 0]

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If he does it again, Pull his silver handle on the next jump. Then he will stop.

This might be to much. Dump his main after exit. Now thats better because he has more time to think about it.

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[sundevil777 94]

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And for all the 'pull the silver' or 'violent reaction' folks out there - do people a favor and stay off teams if that's how you deal with your teammates. Try communicating (not directed at the original poster).

It wouldn't matter to me whether he is on my team or not.

Communication did happen, it didn't work. The fact that it didn't work is why I would be so upset. Either he is selfish or it is a hard habit to break. Either way, to accomodate the selfishness/habit by allowing it to continue is very wrong, in my opinion.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[billvon 2,435]

>Nothing wrong when it is planned, but it is a habit for the guy in question.

OK, I thought you meant that the habit of pulling in place was bad (which, as you mention, isn't.) Sorry.

[AMax 0]

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Would you be pissed? Am I off base? How would you handle bringing it up?

The whole team concept means that you talk to your teammate (or a whole team) before discussing the issue on a public forum. Clearly, your intentions are good but I (personally) would still be upset if my teammates did something like that to me.

Edit to quote one respected competitor:

"Do you want to be right or you want to have a team?"

[tbrown 26]

The guy who dumped in place did it because our spot was pretty long, and he's been injured in the past landing off.