Samurai136 0 #26 October 2, 2006 This "strike" idea has no merit. For two reasons: 1: The strike organization doesn't give out the ratings. 2: The USPA gives out AFF ratings... etc ergo.... DUH! What business owner would hire an "experienced Instructor" from the union when the rank and file skydiver can get an instructor's rating from the USPA and go straight to work for the DZO? For this Idea to work, you would need to have all the I'E's in the sport on board. Is that going to happen? probably not."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #27 October 2, 2006 QuoteSometimes the truth does hurt. Do you mean to imply that I personally comprimise safety for money!?! Do you know how many times I've grounded student load for winds and taken flak for being overly cautious? Do you know how many times I've discussed whether or not to send up loads with my instructors and given them the decision? Do you know how many times I've called booked tandems and told them not to come out because of weather? (and I'm not talking about prepays) I get yelled at by students and criticized by up jumpers for being way to cautious. And I have never ever criticized an instructor for a safety issue but rather backed them every time even when the DZ loses money because of it. That's what hurts. Knowing that inspite of what I do I'm considered a money grubby DZO who'll send up his grandmother in a huricane to make money on a load. By the way, I spent three years as an instructor and made $1200 per month working the same hours you did an addition 4 working for strictly jump credit (once had 30 jump tickets I was too busy instructing to use) and for the last 5 years, I've had my own DZ and made even less. I understand the concept of being underpaid in skydiving. (That's why it's important to find the job rewarding in other ways.) If I was paid an instructor wage, I would have been paid an extra $7500 this year for Tandems, FJC, IAD, reserve packs and regular packs. Instead I make less and do the DZO stuff on top. DZs like mine pay as much as we are able to. When we can't afford to pay or staff, we take the pay cut so that the instructors maintain thier wages. I pay myself last.(not a wise thing in business but this ain't a business) How is our DZ not paying enough when the instructors make more from students than the DZ does? That's the truth. That's why it hurts to be considered to be a money hungry leach.I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #28 October 2, 2006 QuoteThis "strike" idea has no merit. For two reasons: 1: The strike organization doesn't give out the ratings. 2: The USPA gives out AFF ratings... etc ergo.... DUH! What business owner would hire an "experienced Instructor" from the union when the rank and file skydiver can get an instructor's rating from the USPA and go straight to work for the DZO? There are other reasons too... Basic economics... High supply, low demand...easily replaceable. The sport will only suffer, and get a worse name. It will bury itself in apathy and anger if the quality of AFF or TI's go down, injuries will likely rise, yadayadayada. If you want to unionize, when skydiving was at its peak was the right time. Or when the next wave/peak comes, just before the crest. Extract the word "Skydive" from the conversation and subsitute most any service industry title in the conversation, and you'll find much of the same sort of discussion. The only difference is that typical employees/contractors don't take a leap of faith from 13K every day wanting that a small bit of nylong and string will assure a save arrival back on the earth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pms07 3 #29 October 3, 2006 Quote If you want to know what kills enthusiasm for the sport it's trying turning the DZ into a money machine. DZOs aren't the only one who are focused on the almighty dollar it's also some instructors. That's what kills the enthusiasm. I didn't start a DZ because I thought I'd be able to make money and do free jumps. I started a DZ because I loved teaching new jumpers. The feeling I get when I help someone find the strength to conquer a fear is amazing. To me Skydiving is not about making money, it's about doing what you love. Anyone (DZOs or instructors) who is trying to make skydiving a lucrative career is hurting the sport and probably should leave. I really don't understand that type of thinking but one thing I do understand is that it is infectious and destroys the bond people have with the sport. Focusing on money is poison to the sport. Okay, let me know when you have a couple of million $ invested in aircraft and facilities (think places like Eloy, Perris, Z-Hills, etc...). I'll come by for the cheap or free jumps you plan to offer. I'll show you enthusiasm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HeatherB 0 #30 October 3, 2006 QuoteAll of us, every single AFF Instructor must stand up for a living wage. What do you believe constitutes a living wage? What do you think is fair pay for doing an AFF jump or teaching a FJC? And where would that money come from? Raising student jump prices? Raising experienced jumper prices? Out of the owner's pockets or management's pockets? Somewhere else? I'm not an AFF instructor but I'm curious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #31 October 3, 2006 QuoteDo you mean to imply that I personally comprimise safety for money!?! Not at all. My statements ware generalizations about the industry. As such, they hold true. There are exceptions to every rule though. DZO's could change things if they wanted to. They don't want to. Why? They like it the way it is. They want staff turn-over. If you run a good DZ, then this affects you too. If you charge the student more so you can afford to pay for proffessional, experienced Instructors, your competition will under-cut you. If you spend the money on safety, your margins are smaller than the DZO that doesn't. The industry doesn't reward quality. It won't change because the Instructors that realize how bad it is are in the minority. The majority of Instructors are happy as clams just to get paid. By the time they join the crowd that understands how messed up things are, they have already trained several people to replace them and the cycle continues. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
teason 0 #32 October 3, 2006 QuoteOkay, let me know when you have a couple of million $ invested in aircraft and facilities (think places like Eloy, Perris, Z-Hills, etc...). I'll come by for the cheap or free jumps you plan to offer. I'll show you enthusiasm... Who the hell's gonna lend me a couple million, I can't make a 182 profitable! And that's kinda the point. Besides, if you are only coming to DZ because it's cheap or free, you're way too dollar focused. By the way, how did you make the leap from "treating people fairly, not comprimising safety for a buck and creating a DZ to be proud of" to "giving away free jumps from an otter"? Just incase you missed the point, here it is more plainly. I took offense to a generalization. I tried to put forward the point of view of the DZO who doesn't whore his/her morals for money. I also put forward the what I feel is the positive attitude for being in the sport and how foolish it is to be in this business for money and how harmful that attitude is for the sport. Finally, I tried to demonstrate that you can own a DZ and be pissed on by people who you pay more than you pay yourself. Some of us make a real sacrifice to provide a place for people to jump. It was just a contrary view to the "DZOs are the fat cats raking in the cash on the backs of poor starving instructor whose safety they disregard." point of view. I was a poor starving instructor for 7 years and a poorer starving DZO for 5. I had no illusion that I would make millions but I didn't intend on running a charity. All I wanted was to be able to make $30,000 per year, buy a house and start a family. (I lost my home, my family and even my dog do to the financial strain) I never thought I'd lose everything while being thought of as a money hungry bastard (and I have been told that I am). I've really sacrificed everything. I thought I'd at least get something worth more than money. I thought I'd get respect for my efforts. All I get is disdain. By the way, try reading an economics book called "Small is beautiful" (I think it's by Paul Berger) You may find it enligthening. Skydiving should be more than "how big's the plane" and "how much are the jumps". Maybe I just have a different view coming from a small market with weekend instructors.I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #33 October 3, 2006 >>This DZO smiled but answered [the] question. His reply was both sad and true at the same time; "You guys [Instructors] are knuckleheads, and a dime a dozen, and you always will be . . . !" Derek, Thanks for recalling that one in your undercarriage. I'd forgotten it, but it still gives me a giggle. Now, I just have to fit it on a sign . . . NickD BASE 194 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #34 October 3, 2006 I worked as a full time Instructor for a year and a half. I worked 7 days a week, 12+ hours a day. 1000 jumps/year @ $25.00/jump. You do the math. No benefits. No paid time off. No health insurance. Treated like an Independent Contractor and expected to act like an employee. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The "independent contractor" scam used by many American DZs is a clear violation of union labor laws. A couple of DZs have been "busted" by the government. Maybe more DZs need to be busted before they will quit cheating staff out of health insurance, paid time off, vacation time, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jlmiracle 7 #35 October 3, 2006 QuoteWe need to unionize and we need to go on strike. All of us, every single AFF Instructor must stand up for a living wage. I am instructor at a weekend only dz. I love it. I have a real job with real wages. Instructing suplements my non-working jumps and allows me to do coach jumps for free (which I know really pisses off the "full timers" at other dz's). Its been no secret tha tif you try to make a living skydiving, you will live below the poverty line. I, am not willing to live like that, which is why I have a full time job outside of skydivng. As far as starting a union, who would be the the Union represenative, how much money would you have to give up for union fees. Unions are the downfall of america. I would never join one. jBe kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pms07 3 #36 October 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteOkay, let me know when you have a couple of million $ invested in aircraft and facilities (think places like Eloy, Perris, Z-Hills, etc...). I'll come by for the cheap or free jumps you plan to offer. I'll show you enthusiasm... Who the hell's gonna lend me a couple million, I can't make a 182 profitable! And that's kinda the point. Besides, if you are only coming to DZ because it's cheap or free, you're way too dollar focused. I'm just trying to help you focus on your philosophy. Cheap or free jumps aren't a bad thing and if you want to run a DZ that doesn't "whore" after money...it seemed like a logical to plan me. Big planes and competitive jump prices, a living wage for professional instructors and DZOs...won't ruin the sport. If I were only going to the DZ for cheap jumps I would have probably quit 30 years ago. Lighten up... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andrewwhyte 1 #37 October 3, 2006 Quote Its been no secret tha tif you try to make a living skydiving, you will live below the poverty line. My employees are far from rich but they don't live below the poverty line. Their problem (and mine) is finding work in the winter. Those who go to the US successfully tend not to come back. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #38 October 3, 2006 QuoteQuote Its been no secret that if you try to make a living skydiving, you will live below the poverty line. My employees are far from rich but they don't live below the poverty line. Their problem (and mine) is finding work in the winter. Those who go to the US successfully tend not to come back. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Agreed. I work for the same DZO as Andrew Whyte. The first couple of summers that I worked for him, had to return to my old job at an American loft. After a couple of years of worrying that I might not return, the boss offered me a 12 month contract to repair his student gear over the winter. Fortunately, his offer coincided with US efforts to tighten work visas for foreigners, after 9/11. Pay is not great, but it is better than collecting UI or finding a "real job" during the cold months. As far as I know, I am the only year-round employee at a Canadian DZ. The boss is also pretty good about time off. For example, he gave me a week off - paid - to visit my dying mother during July. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
