travis87 0 #1 November 11, 2006 Hi, Today was my 20th jump... I waved off at about 4,000 and pulled a little above 3,500. Normally, the harness sits me up straight almost immediately and than opens up however this time, it didn't. After 3 seconds of not being lifted up vertically in my harness (still in stomach to earth position) I figured something was wrong so I figured I'd cutaway. Just as I reached down found my cutaway handle the harness sat me up. I checked my altimeter and I was at 2,000 ft. What could have taken it so long? Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shermanator 3 #2 November 11, 2006 Have your instructors talked to you about the possibility of your pilot chute getting stuck in your burble?... go talk to them and ask what that is and such.CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08 CSA #720 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
buzi 0 #3 November 11, 2006 I wasn't there to see it (maybe someone who saw you might be a good person to ask). But it could have been a pilot chute in tow, and when you reached for silver, you let the PC out of the burble. Don't forget your decision altitude, high speed malls require fast thinking. Blue skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites g2gjump 0 #4 November 11, 2006 What container were you Jumping? If it was a wings in particular I could help you out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites packerboy 3 #5 November 11, 2006 I wouldn't try BASE jumping with that config. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites darkwing 4 #6 November 11, 2006 there are about a half a dozen things it could be. Talk with instructors... -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vectracide 0 #7 November 11, 2006 Travis, Welcome to your first hesitation, and not your last one if you stay in the sport. I remember my first long hesitation very clearly, and I reacted the same way you did. Several years and many jumps later, I kinda laugh at that event as you will sometime. Here is the most likely scenerio. A pilot chute in tow is caused by the PC not clearing your burble. By this, I mean that the PC was caught in the dead air space just behind and above your back. There is alot of turbulent air in that location, and a PC can get "caught" in that air and dance around for a while. This can be caused by a lazy toss of the PC, or just dumb luck. Preventing this issue can be helped by a deliberate toss of the PC at full arm extension and having an optimum box body position. Now what you might not realize is why the PC cleared when it did before you could cut away. When you looked down at your handles to locate them, you brought your head and hands down to your chest. This tilted your body in a more head down position, and allowed for more air to clear past your neck and back. This new air grabbed your PC and yanked out your pin before you could even pull on your handles didn't it? Same event for me at around 50 jumps or so. Lessoned learned? For me it was to tilt my body in a head up or head down position if this ever happened again. You don't want to get in the habit of tilting a shoulder to clear your burble, as this will in the future, get you in trouble with canopies that don't like uneven body postion upon opening. Give it a try if it happens again before you go for your cutaway handle and silver, but only try it once. Remember, at your level, you only want to attempt one fix, and if that doesn't work.....chop it and reserve time. Good Luck ------------------------------ Controlled and Deliberate..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shermanator 3 #8 November 11, 2006 hmmm, I appologize for being the 100 jump wonder here.. but... isnt there a big difference between a pc in tow and a pc in burble? pc in burble is easily fixed by tilting a bit sideways.. or looking back at the pc, which cuases the airflow to change, grabbing the pc out of the burble and pull the pin, then bag linestrech ect ect. but pc in tow the pc is fully extended bridal length. but does not have enough force to pull the pin. either bridal being wrapped around something, misrouted, or pc was not cocked among the hundreds of other reasons that could cause a pc in tow. Please, someone correct me if i am wrong on this, and i will go about my day with this new knowledge. if i am not wrong.. i think it scares me a bit that somone with much more jump numbers than me does not know this difference.CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08 CSA #720 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Vectracide 0 #9 November 11, 2006 Sherm, I see what you are referring to, and as per your definition, you are correct. This might be just semantics, but I look at all PC's that are fully extracted and not fouled by any body part or caught on the rig (such as a flap) as a PC in tow. I think that what you are saying is that a PC in tow is a fully extended PC that has full inflation with no pin extraction, and a PC in burble is one that has not been fully inflated with no extraction pressure on the pin. Per the 2007 SIM, a PC in tow is considered a total malfunction, and a PC that is a burble is considered a PC hesitation. To me....their both behind me and I'm the one draggin it along.......in tow till fixed otherwise. What I would like to point out is that fixing a PC in tow, or burble for your definition, tilting sideways can get you into a situation where upon deployment when the PC clears, you can induce uneven inflation, resulting in linetwists caused by one side of the canopy inflating before the other. Now this most likely will not occur when flying student, or large square canopies, but it most definitely will cause a unwanted deployment sequence with an elliptical canopy. ------------------------------ Controlled and Deliberate..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites packerboy 3 #10 November 11, 2006 I'll take line twists w/ a cutaway/ reserve ride any day over a PC in tow cutaway/ reserve ride. Are you suggesting staying square and waiting for a PC in burble to clear itself? How do you know it's just a burble thing as opposed to a container lock? I'd rather not waste precious time worrying about it. Take a look.. if it's a burble thing it should clear by the motion of turning to look, if not.. you may have a container lock or an uniflated PC in tow.. very undesirable situations that should be dealt with without delay. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brettski74 0 #11 November 11, 2006 It sounds like this was a sub-terminal opening. I had the same experience when I test-jumped a Safire 2 I was planning to buy several months back. I exited, waited three seconds and then threw my pilot chute. About three seconds later I was wondering what's going on, looked over my shoulder to see everything streaming out and the canopy snivelling. Within about another half second, I was stood up and all was normal. I spoke with my instructors on the ground and their first response was that a sub-terminal opening may well be noticeably slower than one at terminal velocity. Keep in mind, though, I don't even vaguely resemble an expert, yet, so discuss this with your instructors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites recovercrachead 0 #12 November 11, 2006 QuoteSherm, What I would like to point out is that fixing a PC in tow, or burble for your definition, tilting sideways can get you into a situation where upon deployment when the PC clears, you can induce uneven inflation, resulting in linetwists caused by one side of the canopy inflating before the other. Now this most likely will not occur when flying student, or large square canopies, but it most definitely will cause a unwanted deployment sequence with an elliptical canopy. WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How cares get the shit out above you head then deal with it. I dont care if it twists like a candycane. Clear that burble. Cutway if need. Then pull the silver. Can it be any easier.Track high, Pull LOW!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites CSpenceFLY 1 #13 November 11, 2006 Thats what I was thinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FlyinseivLP2 0 #14 November 11, 2006 WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How cares get the shit out above you head then deal with it. I dont care if it twists like a candycane. Clear that burble. Cutway if need. Then pull the silver. Can it be any easier. I agree with this. Look over your shoulder. This will also spill air into your burble to help clear a hesitation. Vectracide, please remember that you are talking to someone with 20 jumps and many others with low jump numbers will be reading this. For one, people that need an answer to this question should not be jumping a canopy that will spin up on them with a little uneven body position. Secondly telling someone, with 20 jumps, to go head low could be very dangerous. I would much rather see them open with uneven shoulders than them frontlooping as their pin is pulled. To the original poster, please go talk with your instuctors about this and take the advice you get here with a grain of salt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
g2gjump 0 #4 November 11, 2006 What container were you Jumping? If it was a wings in particular I could help you out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packerboy 3 #5 November 11, 2006 I wouldn't try BASE jumping with that config. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #6 November 11, 2006 there are about a half a dozen things it could be. Talk with instructors... -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vectracide 0 #7 November 11, 2006 Travis, Welcome to your first hesitation, and not your last one if you stay in the sport. I remember my first long hesitation very clearly, and I reacted the same way you did. Several years and many jumps later, I kinda laugh at that event as you will sometime. Here is the most likely scenerio. A pilot chute in tow is caused by the PC not clearing your burble. By this, I mean that the PC was caught in the dead air space just behind and above your back. There is alot of turbulent air in that location, and a PC can get "caught" in that air and dance around for a while. This can be caused by a lazy toss of the PC, or just dumb luck. Preventing this issue can be helped by a deliberate toss of the PC at full arm extension and having an optimum box body position. Now what you might not realize is why the PC cleared when it did before you could cut away. When you looked down at your handles to locate them, you brought your head and hands down to your chest. This tilted your body in a more head down position, and allowed for more air to clear past your neck and back. This new air grabbed your PC and yanked out your pin before you could even pull on your handles didn't it? Same event for me at around 50 jumps or so. Lessoned learned? For me it was to tilt my body in a head up or head down position if this ever happened again. You don't want to get in the habit of tilting a shoulder to clear your burble, as this will in the future, get you in trouble with canopies that don't like uneven body postion upon opening. Give it a try if it happens again before you go for your cutaway handle and silver, but only try it once. Remember, at your level, you only want to attempt one fix, and if that doesn't work.....chop it and reserve time. Good Luck ------------------------------ Controlled and Deliberate..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shermanator 3 #8 November 11, 2006 hmmm, I appologize for being the 100 jump wonder here.. but... isnt there a big difference between a pc in tow and a pc in burble? pc in burble is easily fixed by tilting a bit sideways.. or looking back at the pc, which cuases the airflow to change, grabbing the pc out of the burble and pull the pin, then bag linestrech ect ect. but pc in tow the pc is fully extended bridal length. but does not have enough force to pull the pin. either bridal being wrapped around something, misrouted, or pc was not cocked among the hundreds of other reasons that could cause a pc in tow. Please, someone correct me if i am wrong on this, and i will go about my day with this new knowledge. if i am not wrong.. i think it scares me a bit that somone with much more jump numbers than me does not know this difference.CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08 CSA #720 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vectracide 0 #9 November 11, 2006 Sherm, I see what you are referring to, and as per your definition, you are correct. This might be just semantics, but I look at all PC's that are fully extracted and not fouled by any body part or caught on the rig (such as a flap) as a PC in tow. I think that what you are saying is that a PC in tow is a fully extended PC that has full inflation with no pin extraction, and a PC in burble is one that has not been fully inflated with no extraction pressure on the pin. Per the 2007 SIM, a PC in tow is considered a total malfunction, and a PC that is a burble is considered a PC hesitation. To me....their both behind me and I'm the one draggin it along.......in tow till fixed otherwise. What I would like to point out is that fixing a PC in tow, or burble for your definition, tilting sideways can get you into a situation where upon deployment when the PC clears, you can induce uneven inflation, resulting in linetwists caused by one side of the canopy inflating before the other. Now this most likely will not occur when flying student, or large square canopies, but it most definitely will cause a unwanted deployment sequence with an elliptical canopy. ------------------------------ Controlled and Deliberate..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packerboy 3 #10 November 11, 2006 I'll take line twists w/ a cutaway/ reserve ride any day over a PC in tow cutaway/ reserve ride. Are you suggesting staying square and waiting for a PC in burble to clear itself? How do you know it's just a burble thing as opposed to a container lock? I'd rather not waste precious time worrying about it. Take a look.. if it's a burble thing it should clear by the motion of turning to look, if not.. you may have a container lock or an uniflated PC in tow.. very undesirable situations that should be dealt with without delay. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brettski74 0 #11 November 11, 2006 It sounds like this was a sub-terminal opening. I had the same experience when I test-jumped a Safire 2 I was planning to buy several months back. I exited, waited three seconds and then threw my pilot chute. About three seconds later I was wondering what's going on, looked over my shoulder to see everything streaming out and the canopy snivelling. Within about another half second, I was stood up and all was normal. I spoke with my instructors on the ground and their first response was that a sub-terminal opening may well be noticeably slower than one at terminal velocity. Keep in mind, though, I don't even vaguely resemble an expert, yet, so discuss this with your instructors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
recovercrachead 0 #12 November 11, 2006 QuoteSherm, What I would like to point out is that fixing a PC in tow, or burble for your definition, tilting sideways can get you into a situation where upon deployment when the PC clears, you can induce uneven inflation, resulting in linetwists caused by one side of the canopy inflating before the other. Now this most likely will not occur when flying student, or large square canopies, but it most definitely will cause a unwanted deployment sequence with an elliptical canopy. WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How cares get the shit out above you head then deal with it. I dont care if it twists like a candycane. Clear that burble. Cutway if need. Then pull the silver. Can it be any easier.Track high, Pull LOW!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #13 November 11, 2006 Thats what I was thinking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FlyinseivLP2 0 #14 November 11, 2006 WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How cares get the shit out above you head then deal with it. I dont care if it twists like a candycane. Clear that burble. Cutway if need. Then pull the silver. Can it be any easier. I agree with this. Look over your shoulder. This will also spill air into your burble to help clear a hesitation. Vectracide, please remember that you are talking to someone with 20 jumps and many others with low jump numbers will be reading this. For one, people that need an answer to this question should not be jumping a canopy that will spin up on them with a little uneven body position. Secondly telling someone, with 20 jumps, to go head low could be very dangerous. I would much rather see them open with uneven shoulders than them frontlooping as their pin is pulled. To the original poster, please go talk with your instuctors about this and take the advice you get here with a grain of salt. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #15 November 13, 2006 I'm very surprised that, with 800 jumps, you don't know the difference between PC hesitation and PC-in-tow. Hesitation: PC caught in your burble. Most often caused by a lazy throw. Correction - disrupt the burble. An over-the-shoulder look quite often clears the PC off your back. PC In Tow PC out, bridle fully extended, no pin pull. Correction: Cutaway, deploy reserve. (Caveat....no I'll not say anything here because we are talking to students. Now is not the time for them to be attempting "advanced" maneuvers regardless of the wisdom, or lack thereof, of trying to clear a PC In-Tow.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SwampThing 0 #16 November 13, 2006 QuotePer the 2007 SIM, a PC in tow is considered a total malfunction, and a PC that is a burble is considered a PC hesitation. To me....their both behind me and I'm the one draggin it along.......in tow till fixed otherwise. Quote Then it's not semantics, the definition is clearly defined, you're using your own definition to possibly confuse someone that doesn't understand "YOUR" meaning. till fixed otherwise: there are two very different approaches to 'fixing' or dealing with two very different situations. You can call a leg strap a chest strap, but that doesn't MAKE IT ONE. The Pessimist says: "It can't possibly get any worse!" The Optimist says: "Sure it can!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites popsjumper 2 #17 November 14, 2006 I was much too harsh on Vectracide and I publicly apologize for my wise-ass comment about being surprised. He does understand the difference bewtween PCIT and PCH. I have no clue on what the hell I was thinking. Sorry Can I have a little salt with this crow?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
popsjumper 2 #17 November 14, 2006 I was much too harsh on Vectracide and I publicly apologize for my wise-ass comment about being surprised. He does understand the difference bewtween PCIT and PCH. I have no clue on what the hell I was thinking. Sorry Can I have a little salt with this crow?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
