When low go for reserve, not main!

[el_chester 4]

On saturday a friend of mine and her freefly instructor lost track of altitude.

As a result they both had their cypres fire on them as they were pulling their main. The instructor landed both canopies (don't know what configuration).

Her canopies went into a downplane from which she cut away at an estimated 400ft according to an eyewitness I spoke to on the ground. She was reaching up to get the toggles when she hit the ground. VERY fortunately she came out of it totally unharmed, not a scratch.

When discussing this with somebody today, I heard that the only lesson to be learnt was "don't lose track of altitude" and "don't trust your life to an audible." I want to share my point of view that the other very important lesson is "When you're low go straight for your reserve, not your main".

I really don't want to imagine what would have happened if she had cut away a split second later, or if her main and reserve had entangled.

*please* don't post if you're going to flame her or the instructor for having lost track of altitude. My intention in posting here is to discuss the subject of having a hard deck and sticking to it. Of course she knows that if they didn't put themselves in that situation in the first place this discussion would not take place.

PS I have no accurate info on whether he was wearing audibles, she was but didn't hear it.

--
Be careful giving advice. Wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it.

[wmw999 2,121]

The one thing is that when you're in a hurry (and ground rush will bring that on), then you're much more likely to do what's automatic, which is to go for your main. Really. In the time it takes you to think -- dang I'm low, don't go for main, go for reserve, your main will probably already be out.

There's at least one jumper here with a sub-500 foot opening where he went for his main, for exactly that reason.

So be ready to deal with situations as they come, but pulling your main when you're in a hurry is likely, so think about it.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[steve1 5]

I know the smart thing to do would be to go for your reserve, but this almost never happens. I'm no expert, but I have gone really really low twice in my life. The first time was in the 70's when none of us were watching altimeters. I could see the ground coming up really fast but pulled my main instead of my belly reserve. I had canopy at 500 feet. Not smart, but I just wasn't thinking quick enough to do anything else. Muscle memory kicked in and I went for the wrong handle.

Last summer I had a Cypress fire at Lost Prairie. A variety of things went wrong, but it was mostly because I had my head up my rear. And I threw out my main instead of going for my reserve handle. I was over a hill across from the DZ. Believe me the trees were getting really big when both canopies openned. They were both flying well, one behind the other, so I landed both. When the ground is coming up that fast, most people don't think smart....Steve1

[el_chester 4]

That's a good point. I beleive it's also why they both pulled main instead of reserve.

However, I beleive that after this has happened to someone close to me, now if I should ever find myself in such a position (and I really don't plan to), then I have a bit of a better chance of going for the reserve, just because I have been thinking about this for 3 days straight. It's also the reason for my post - to get people to give this a thought. The more we know before an emergency, the better we might deal with it.

I love the signature of one of the people who posts here: "I wonder how many lives have been saved because dropzone.com exists?" (or something similar)

--
Be careful giving advice. Wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it.

[BlindBrick 0]

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However, I beleive that after this has happened to someone close to me, now if I should ever find myself in such a position (and I really don't plan to), then I have a bit of a better chance of going for the reserve, just because I have been thinking about this for 3 days straight.

Many, many studies in psychology and physiology will disagree with you. We are currently studying this kind of stuff in my Science of Peak Sport Performance class and visualization is an enhancement rather than a substitue in high-stress physical situations.

Don't get me wrong, Visualization helps, but in a high-stress situation, the odds, and RL experience, say that you will revert to what you've trained, ie throwing out the main. Now if you had a training altimeter and repeatedly reached for silver when you were way low, that might be a different story.


-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[billvon 2,400]

>now if I should ever find myself in such a position (and I really don't
> plan to), then I have a bit of a better chance of going for the
> reserve, just because I have been thinking about this for 3 days
> straight.

I can understand the thinking, but I don't think you would. It's not like deciding to do a floater exit instead of a diving exit - it's like putting an "emergency brake" button on your dashboard and telling yourself that if you are ever about to be in a collision, you will not hit the regular brakes but instead push the button to activate the super braking system. That system might work really well, but if someone ever does stop suddenly in front of you, your right foot is going to find that brake. That instinct is simply too ingrained for most drivers to overcome.

Case in point - I once did a stupid dive. We planned a 7 point 4-way on a cloudy day where we knew we would barely get 5000 feet. During the dirt dive I asked one of the jumpers (an AFF-I) what he would do if he found himself at 1000 feet. "I'd open my reserve," he said, and pantomined pulling the reserve.

We made the jump, we all went low, he found himself at 1000 feet, and he opened his main. His cypres fired.

Now, this was a very current 4-way jumper and AFF-I who taught emergency procedures every weekend. He knew he might go low. He had just practiced opening his reserve. And he still couldn't make himself open his reserve. Given that, if you are not an AFF-I who teaches this stuff every weekend, and if you don't assume you will go low and practice opening your reserve before every jump - your odds of being able to do it are probably even lower than his were.

On the other hand, this _can_ be learned. If you want to learn it, make practice jumps with a tersh and practice opening your reserve relatively low in freefall (say, 2000 feet.) If you do it enough, eventually that will start to take over from your other muscle memory and you may be able to overcome the pull instinct. But like anything else it takes training and time, and most jumpers are not willing to put in that time.

[Shotgun 1]

I had a jump similar to this once...

I was doing a solo headdown jump, focused on the mountains on the horizon... It was going better than usual (staying vertical), which probably means that I was going a lot faster than usual... so my "internal clock" was off. The first time I decided to look at my altimeter, I got slightly unstable which caused me to get a glimpse of the ground, at which point I no longer needed to see my alti because I was obviously low. I quickly arched and pulled my main at the same time, as the siren on my Dytter went off (the last setting at 1500 ft. - I had not heard the first two warnings). My main opened much faster than usual, most likely because of my increased speed, but it seemed like I only had time to unstow my toggles and quickly find a place to land.

This jump turned out ok, but it left me wondering if I had done the right thing. I do not jump with an AAD, and I have a pillow handle for my reserve which I have never pulled in freefall before - I pull it every time I have my reserve packed, and it is definitely harder to pull than a D-ring. So in this case, had I decided to go for my reserve, there's a good chance it would have taken me longer to pull the handle than it did for me to pull my main. Not to mention I would have been landing off with a Tempo 120 that I had never flown before. So basically I decided that I had done exactly the right thing for that situation (considering the gear I was using) and that the only lesson I could learn from that was to not lose altitude awareness.

I was also glad that I was not using an AAD on that jump because I probably would have had to deal with two canopies out. So it made me think that if I do decide to jump with an AAD that I would need to be prepared to go for my reserve if I ever found myself low again... but honestly, no matter how much I try to grill that into my head, I can't see my automatic reaction ever being anything other than to pull my main... something to think about whether you jump with an AAD or not.

And something to think about if you do choose to jump with an AAD - if you lose altitude awareness, the AAD may save your life, but you're also a lot more likely to have to deal with a two-out situation that could have serious consequences...

[el_chester 4]

You are probably very right. That's why i said in my previous post "a bit of a better chance of going for the reserve", 'cause I know instinct might kick in. Still, it would suck if muscle memory killed you, wouldn't it? Being a relatively low-timer I am obsessed with learning as much as possible to make myself as safe as possible. And I would like to think that all this time I am spending reading old incidents will -if ever needed- help me make a better decission than to let muscle memory injure or kill me.

But I don't in the least challenge you guys - most likely if scared by ground rush, my hand will find my pilot way faster than my brain can think "you're low! - remember Paula! - pull reserve!"

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the odds, and RL experience, say that you will revert to what you've trained

What does RL mean? "Real life"?

--
Be careful giving advice. Wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it.

[Kramer 0]

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When low go for reserve, not main!

I've got one better for ya: Don't go low.

The FAKE KRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMER!!!!!!!!!

[el_chester 4]

i suppose you didn't read the first message in the thread, did you?

--
Be careful giving advice. Wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it.

[Maxx 1]

I had almost the same situation 2 years ago.. I was also with a freefly instructor and he briefed me before to fly daffy after i heard the dytter, just to try that position out. I did so and when i turned away to track i had already passed 2400ft.. I ended up pulling my main at 1800ft. Everything went OK and I had no cypres fire. I never thought about pulling my reserve, because I was just in a hurry to pull my main. Things happen fast when you come closer to the ground.. I learned a lesson from it: Never do any more freefly after you heard your dytter, even if it's only for 1 or 2 seconds..

Just my thoughts..

Feet up,
Max

[freakydiver 0]

Yah but with your canopy in the 70s fast openings were the norm. So where low pulls. If you are below your harddeck, go for reserve, its not worth a packjob price over a life.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[Reginald 0]

Interesting tangent…
I visualize going to my reserve first in a particular circumstance. When I am sitting by the door and after we hit 1,000 feet, I have to open the door to let the cool air in (hey it’s Texas it’s smothering heat 9 months a year). I have an irrational fear of falling out when I open the door or when I’m siting by it after I open it. Falling out at 13,500 might be funny but falling out at 1,300 feet isn’t. I visualize hitting the reserve. It’s funny the fear of falling out goes away at about 2,500 feet, an altitude I’ve deployed at, at terminal. Oh sure it’s an irrational fear but nonetheless one I have.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[DrewEckhardt 0]

The instinctive response to pull when you see ground rush is _very_ strong.

Seeing the walls go by on every side I pulled early on my first jump into the cave of the swallows, where it's close to 150 feet in diameter.

[Liemberg 0]

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"When you're low go straight for your reserve, not your main".

Not much point in "training a procedure" that - in all likelihood - you will forget when you need it.
Besides, there is/will be an altitude where you 'switch' (i.e. above it - go for main / below - go for reserve) You'll be screaming through that altitude at 200km/h, you wont be parked there for a couple of seconds to asses the situation.
(Then again - if you wait long enough the situation resolves itself at the cost of a cypres cutter )

The only thing I can imagine is an emergency bail out below my hard deck where i'd have a few seconds to 'make a plan'. (on a previous occasion I managed to leave the drogue-release in the pilot's lap, prior to exit...)
Other than that I'll try not to lose track of altitude....

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[Mad47 0]

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And something to think about if you do choose to jump with an AAD - if you lose altitude awareness, the AAD may save your life, but you're also a lot more likely to have to deal with a two-out situation that could have serious consequences...

The possibility of 2-out is a very common anti-AAD argument. The number of documented Cypress saves (ok, documented reserve deployments initiated by Cypress) is available. It there any data on number of fatalities due to Cypress fire leading to main-reserve entanglement?

I have no problem jumping without an AAD but I prefer to use one.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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When discussing this with somebody today, I heard that the only lesson to be learnt was "don't lose track of altitude" and "don't trust your life to an audible." I want to share my point of view that the other very important lesson is "When you're low go straight for your reserve, not your main".

[snip] My intention in posting here is to discuss the subject of having a hard deck and sticking to it. Of course she knows that if they didn't put themselves in that situation in the first place this discussion would not take place.

I talked to both jumpers involved on this dive. They both understand that they lost altitude awareness. The instructor/coach (not an official USPA type, but a well-recognized FF instructor) definitely admitted 'I fucked up.' The 'student', a jumper with about 200 jumps, was very upset and scared about the jump. Both of these jumpers have been humbled and appreciate the importance of pro-actively maintaining altitude awareness.

Many years ago I said 'I do not plan to go in.' to Bill Deli. His immediate reply was 'No one ever does.' This immediately crystallized the concept of 'Plan to survive' in my mind. IOW, do things and have actions in the dive flow that enhance your survival. It is not enough to have a plan to leave when you hear your audible go off. You have to do altitude checks, via an altimeter or ground check within the dive. Your plans must be something positive, eg 'I will do an altitude check.' as opposed to a negative 'I will not go low or lose track of altitude.' Pro-active measures will enhance your survival.

Events on a dive can also be used to gauge altitude. See Survival Tip The concepts in this article can be applied to FF too.

When I jump with newer jumpers or organize loads, I tell others never to trust me for break-off altitude. I try to convince people that I am totally clueless, but nothing could be further from the truth. I build in altitude checks for myself as well as the new jumpers. I was recently 'caught' doing an altimeter check (third from right - top row). Someone told me about this photo. He thought I was geeking the camera, but I was really doing an altimeter check.

There seems to be a number of two-ways going low recently.
- Atlanta
- Amy & friend
- photographer and FF jumper for a photo shoot
- Cross Keys
- the two jumpers in this thread

That's five within the past few months. Two-ways have to have both jumpers doing altimeter checks. The leader or more experienced person should take this responsibility very seriously. When I do an altimeter check in front of a new jumper, they follow by doing an altimeter check. This reinforces what the ground looks like at each altitude and develops an internal clock. These are survival skills.

More experienced jumpers should also realize that different exit altitudes will screw up your internal clock. After returning from Thailand with jumps from 23K, the short 12.5K jumps were over very quickly.

Differences in terrain color and visibility can play tricks on your altitude awareness too. Browns or greens or 5 miles visibility vs. 60 miles visibility give you a different perspectives. Build in altitude checks to learn what the ground looks like at each altitude.

As to whether or not you can plan to pull reserve once you know you are under a grand - that is something you can mentally practice and hopefully never have to try out for real.

Altitude awareness is extremely easily to loose. You have to be pro-active in maintaining altitude awareness no matter how many jumps you have.

For completeness, the one and only time I put complete trust into someone else for break-off altitude is on world record or special big-way dives. But - and there is a but here - if I believe they busted the break-off altitude I will leave if I'm in the first wave. This happened on a 50-something-way recently. The person docked on the pull out person did not release the grip on the pull-out person, so the break-off signal was a bit low. I left when I saw the pull-out person frantically trying to shake-off the person docked on him. Then again, there was the time where a first-wave pull-out person had a 5 sec pilot chute in tow. Everyone in the first wave stayed until the person was extracted from the formation. The 2nd and 3rd pull-outs came quickly. Break-off sequence was pretty close to normal, but at a lower altitude and the 2nd and 3rd waves were packed closer together. The trade-off is increased and orderly separation from other jumpers at the expense of a lower break off altitude.

Plan altitude checks to enhance your survival.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[steve1 5]

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Yah but with your canopy in the 70s fast openings were the norm. So where low pulls. If you are below your harddeck, go for reserve, its not worth a packjob price over a life.

Para-commanders do open quicker I guess. I don't recall seeing a lot of low opennings back then though. I know people tell stories of low opennings happening all the time, way back when, but to tell you the truth I didn't see a lot of it. Our club would ground you if you did go low, even then. I doubt if this grounding process helped much. The ground rush from 500 ft. was enough to put the fear of God into me. Reserve pack jobs back then were only five bucks so that wasn't really a factor. The point is you just don't have time to think of a reserve being a faster way to get canopy. In fact I've never heard of anyone pulling a reserve at a lower altitude to save their bacon instead of a main. Maybe someone somewhere did, but I've never heard of this. As someone already mentioned I'd go for my reserve if I had to exit lower, but who can think fast enough when they suddenly realize they are low after a long freefall, when there are no seconds to spare. I appreciate other thoughts on this. Maybe with the proper training this could be possible...Steve1

[friflaj 0]

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I have an irrational fear of falling out when I open the door or when I’m siting by it after I open it.

If it makes you feel any better, I have over 700 jumps and I still don't like opening the door, or closing it after a mid-run. Doesn't matter at what altitude . The jitters are over the second the door is fully open, though.