What to do when Jump Pilot isn't licensed???

[Digitalmafia 0]

Interesting questions posed in this thread.
I have one BIG problem with a non-commercial rated pilot at a DZ:
It is very unfair to students and tourists (tandems) as neither probably know enough to ask the right questions about this AND I am positive that they would (I would) take it for granted that the guy flying the plane isnt properly licensed...

Two follow up questions:

1. Are balloon pilots commercially rated? what does this mean for jumping from Balloons? How does that work.

2. IF you are one of the guys who thinks you shouldnt rat out the dz etc for pilots that are not properly certified-what about instructors (not properly certified) too? Getting to altitude is dangerous, jumping out of the plane is dangerous - so would you turn a blind eye as well?

-this is not a challenge as much as a hypothetical question as I dont think most DZ's would condone or allow it-but it poses an interesting question as I see the pilot and the instructor as an important part of the jump..

[diverds 0]

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To JudyJ: Do the decent thing and confront the individual you believe to be flying jumpers against FAA policy. If they don't respond, then consider going to the FSDO. This is serious stuff, admittedly, but have a little compassion before you screw with someone's life this profoundly

Well said.

-Dave

Skydive Radio

[skinnyshrek 0]

if you want to rat on the pilot judy. While your at it rat out the pilots that help us out sometimes and let us bust clouds, or the pilots that take off a little after sunset just to give us that 1 more jump.
The best way to handle this is approach the pilot in question and talk to him. If this is not a good enough option for you then go find yourself another DZ.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[Pulse 0]

It's too bad that being 'qualified' means little of one's skill and more about how many hoops have been jumped through. The older I get the more I realize 'training' is more an exercise in exposure of ideas and test-taking. In the event of an incident, it is used as a vehicle to determine where to place blame. Not that this is all bad. But the product of such training being labled as 'qualified' without second thought is disturbing.

Why doesn't a 'qualified' pilot get the rating? No one here can answer that one. Perhaps he doesn't have the money. Perhaps he has the skills but figures why jump through the hoops? Perhaps he's a horrible pilot that wouldn't be able to cut it? I don't know...and very few of us here have any idea. But automatically assuming someone without a rating is dangerous is rather silly. Assuming someone is safe because they HAVE a rating is downright dangerous. 'Qualified' doctors make stupid, and sometimes arrogent, mistakes all of the time. As do 'qualified' pilots. Recently at our drop zone we had a 'qualified' pilot taxi to the wrong runway in 25 knot winds. Proving that ANYONE is capable of a little oversight.

If you are right and you do know what you're talking about, at the very best I see this as technically correct/socially gray. I will also add that skydivers seem to be fairly poor at realizing what is and isn't safe when it comes to aircraft at times.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[NickDG 23]

>>1. Are balloon pilots commercially rated? what does this mean for jumping from Balloons? How does that work.<<

Balloon pilots are rated just like all pilots. If you hand a balloon pilot x-bucks for a lift he needs a commercial ticket.

However, if you just show up at a balloon launching field early in the morning and stick your thumb out (or up, I guess) and someone takes you for laughs and no money then no, they can be just private pilots.

To further convolute the OPs question, back when Perris was just a dirt strip and a fuel pump, and long before Ben owned it, it was just a place local crop dusters would stop and refuel. The late Dick Pedley, who didn't want to pay the three bucks it cost to jump at Lake Elsinore, would hang out by the Perris pumps with his gear and bum flyaways.

After awhile the pilots started charging him a buck and after some farmer McNasty complained (about some crops being mysteriously trampled) the feds got involved. Dick told me the local FAA guy said no problem as he (Dick) was just "chipping in" and the pilot's were going up anyway.

The point is, to this day, the FARs can say one thing and FISDO can say another. It's all in how they want to interpret things at the local level. So you may walk in and complain about this guy and get fast action, or they may listen, take note and watch you leave – and then have a good laugh at your expense.

The FAA can be a really screwed up organization. I remember walking into the San Diego FISDO/GATO at Montgomery Field during the early 80s and asking to take the Rigger's written exam. And I swear, the guy said, "The what? Do we even give that?" After I convinced them they did, it took an hour of rifling through file cabinets, with me helping, to find a copy of the test . . .

NickD BASE 194

[Pulse 0]

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if you want to rat on the pilot judy. While your at it rat out the pilots that help us out sometimes and let us bust clouds, or the pilots that take off a little after sunset just to give us that 1 more jump.

EXCELLENT point. We are very conveniant at picking our evils aren't we?

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[tombuch 0]

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With this pilot, who by all reports has been flying jumpers for years, would be well aware of the reg's and rules for using his ticket, and to chose to disrgard the law for many years, tells me he don't give a fuck about the laws and rules for pilots, what else dose this guy blow off because he don't like the laws /rules, rigging and aircraft maintaince, maybe?

Two different but interesting points.

First, your point that if the pilot is blowing off this reg, he may well be blowing off others is a good one, and a big reason for treating this visible violation seriously.

Second, you note that he is probably aware of the regulation and is blowing it off because he doesn't give a damn. That my be true, or he may just be an oldtimer who thinks the regulation says something less than it does. One of the big training areas for a commercial pilot is regulations, and specifically what a commercial pilot can do, what a "hold out" is, and what operations require an operators certificate under part 119. A private pilot often doesn't understand what the regulation allow and limit, and may not even know about part 119. It may be that this guy thinks he is legal. Thus, it would be a good idea to suggest that he call the local FSDO himself and ask about the regulatory limits on a private pilot. If he is belligerent and refuses to get a formal interpretation, the jumper should make the call to the FAA.

I do think it is better to chat with the guy first and help him to get legal, or to learn what legal is, and if he keeps at it, then call the FAA.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[ltdiver 3]

Another point that hasn't been raised in this thread is the issue of 'what if'.

If there is an incident (god forbid) with any DZO's operation the first thing the FAA will look at is if EVERYTHING is in compliance with the law.

If everything IS, then a DZO has little to worry about. If things AREN'T, then his ass is hung up to dry. Not only by the law, but by the public (read:family members of the injured).

So, it's best to keep your nose clean and know you're in the right, than skirt the law and be found wanting...eventually. Cheaper, too.
If we want to be self-policing in the future, wouldn't it be wise to stay on the up-side of the law? If we continue to fail at this on our own we may be very sorry one day when the Feds take over for us.

Just my .02.

ltdiver

Don't tell me the sky's the limit when there are footprints on the moon

[MakeItHappen 15]

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this is how I discovered that this dzo was only a private pilot. He's been doing this for years...

The *this* refers to looking the person up in the FAA airmen's directory.

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I don't jump there.. It's not in California..

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not my home DZ and not where I jump anymore..

What I do not follow is how you know that xyz DZO, with only a PPL, is flying jumpers?

So you looked up this person in the FAA Airmen's directory and it shows that he only has a PPL.

But how do you know that he is flying jumpers?

You've repeatedly said you do not jump at this DZ, so how do you know that this person is flying jumpers?

Sorry, I don't follow you.

It's not a crime to be a DZO with *only* a PPL or *student license* or no pilot's license at all.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[stratostar 5]

She used to jump there and was a student there before relocating to cal. (via PM's exchanged)

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[MakeItHappen 15]

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She used to jump there and was a student there before relocating to cal. (via PM's exchanged)

OK

OK, I got the idea.

OK, I can figure out what DZOs are OK with that.

OK, but has she jumped at said OK dz recently to verify that said OK DZO is really putting out jumpers today, last week, last month?

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[stratostar 5]

No it's not OK but I guess it could be alright. And it's not the first time even in my part of the country I have heard it's OK with some DZO's in hicksville parts of the country.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[MakeItHappen 15]

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No it's not OK but I guess it be alright. And it's not the first time even in my part of the country I have heard it's ok with some DZO's in parts of the country.

It is not ok if this is continuing.

Let me know the details.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[stratostar 5]

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It is not ok if this is continuing.

All kidding aside, I agree with you. I believe this is the same place I have heard about this before more then 5 years ago, not sure, but it is in the right part of the USA, so it could be. I have the impression a visit was not long ago and with a well respected socal local in tow who I trust 100%, I don't know judy, she could be full of shit as far as I know, but I know some flame retardant old guy to speak the truth and I trust his eval.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[bodypilot1 0]

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When you go to the Doctor.. and he really isn't a doctor,,, but he gave you a thorough exam......

you'd be OK with that too?>?

That has to be one of the silliest comparisons I've heard!

I'm going to get more popcorn........


Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[steveorino 7]

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When you go to the Doctor.. and he really isn't a doctor,,, but he gave you a thorough exam......

you'd be OK with that too?>?

That has to be one of the silliest comparisons I've heard!

I'm going to get more popcorn........


Be safe
Ed

Hey, when you got an axe to grind, any comparison that gives you the last laugh works, eh?

steveOrino

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Hey, when you got an axe to grind, any comparison that gives you the last laugh works, eh?

Hey Steve,

This sounds like a saga for DZComic. You could have your fictitious DZO, Floyd, *deal with* the rumor mill.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[steveorino 7]

I thought about it, but her 15 minutes of fame will have to come from someone else besides me.

steveOrino

[Andrewwhyte 1]

One of my neighbours didn't do a very good job of clearing the snow from her sidewalk. Now where is that number for the city. I wonder if I can report that dangerous asshole who changed lanes against the solid line at the same time or do I have to call a different number for that. Damm! I almost crashed writing his license number down; reckless bastard.

[skinnyshrek 0]

while your at it call the city about some drinking beer on the airport. I know most dz's don't do such a thing but if you come across one

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?

[JUDYJ 0]

OK..

it's not about fame is it???

IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough!

[JUDYJ 0]

laughing?????

all those people who are unjured or killed because people aren't thinking or just wanting this to be a "FUN" time...

THE RULES ARE MEANT FOR A REASON AREN'T THEY?? WHY DO SOME PEOPLE NOT HAVE TO FOLLOW THEM??

there are serious issues with serious concerns. If you can't underestand then say so but don't pick a fight you can't win..

IF you are going to be Stupid - you better be tough!

[steveorino 7]

But WHY are YOU picking these rules? You jump 1400 miles away. The pilot has a spotless flying record, with more hours flying a cessna jump plane than anyone in the surrounding 5 states. He has over 2000 jumps and is an AFFI. Quit kidding yourself. This is NOT about your concern for anyone's safety. It is not even about you're such a stickler for the law. It is about getting even for your children being banned from the DZ.

steveOrino

[bozo 0]

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But WHY are YOU picking these rules? You jump 1400 miles away. The pilot has a spotless flying record, with more hours flying a cessna jump plane than anyone in the surrounding 5 states. He has over 2000 jumps and is an AFFI. Quit kidding yourself. This is NOT about your concern for anyone's safety. It is not even about you're such a stickler for the law. It is about getting even for your children being banned from the DZ.

AHAAAAAAA ! And now the rest of the story.
Theres always another agenda.

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

[skinnyshrek 0]

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But WHY are YOU picking these rules? You jump 1400 miles away. The pilot has a spotless flying record, with more hours flying a cessna jump plane than anyone in the surrounding 5 states. He has over 2000 jumps and is an AFFI. Quit kidding yourself. This is NOT about your concern for anyone's safety. It is not even about you're such a stickler for the law. It is about getting even for your children being banned from the DZ.

So her kids act like cunts at a dropzone now she wants some pilot to suffer. fUCKING PATHETIC. . glad you brought it up steve.

http://www.skydivethefarm.com

do you realize that when you critisize people you dont know over the internet, you become part of a growing society of twats? ARE YOU ONE OF THEM?