Head to head tracking contest....

[jumper03 0]

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Because its likely that one or the other is not as good at tracking as the other(why else would there be so much shit talking going on??). When I track with a shorter, lighter jumper they almost always drop 500'-1000' feet below me. In my opinion that means they automatically lose because they aren't flying a straight flat efficient track in the first place...more of a bullshit track thats an abortion of headdown and tracking.

And if that lower person ends up 700-1000 ft AHEAD of you at the end of the track? The purpose of the track is to cover horizontal distance

Scars remind us that the past is real

[wmw999 2,129]

Ah, but is the tracking time-based, or altitude-based? Because if I were to track to 1000' I'd probably beat a whole lot of people.

Normally, the idea is to track to a certain altitude and then pull. If you want horizontal distance, you need some sort of ground-based lens with concentric circles that you can use to measure the two against. Either that, or you have a bidding contest between the two of you for the judge's predetermined decision

And good luck

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ChrisL 2]

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1) Because one will have a snivelly canopy and one will not.
2) Because your alitmeters will not be calibrated the same.
3) Because one will stop, wave off, check for traffic and then pull. The other will just pull in a track to make themselves look better.

I know all that. My point was that using altitude as a point to judge this "contest" when you both agree on the pull altitude makes no sense.

__

My mighty steed

[HillerMyLife 0]

Right...but isn't the overall purpose to cover horizontal distance while also minimizing loss of altitude?

Someday Never Comes

[pilotdave 0]

All that matters is horizontal distance covered over a fixed vertical distance. Best glide ratio wins, regardless of horizontal or vertical speed.

If you race for horizontal distance over a fixed time, you might get very different results. A freeflyer might be able to backslide REALLY fast in a head-down position and get an incredible horizontal speed... but a terrible glide ratio. "Tracking" like that won't work after breakoff, where you have a fixed vertical distance between breakoff and pull altitude.

Dave

[Fast 0]

The way that I have always worked this out is this. Get out and get next to the person. Both start tracking at same time. I wear video and track. As I track I tend to be much higher than anyone who has challenged me to a tracking contest so I just keep looking down at them till pull time or I see them pull. If you look around enough on the video you will get a good reference point. I have always found that it is pretty clear who is a better tracker. At my DZ the list of people who have beat me in a tracking competition is pretty short. (Yes, I am tooting my own horn)

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Brains 2]

I like Fast's idea and that is how we have done it before too.

Funny story about a tracking contest like that. A good friend of mine was at space games ( i think) and they had a tracking contest so he entered, he drew Olav in the first round. He suggested rock,paper,scissors to see who exited first and who would chase. Then they had to explain how to play rock paper scissors. He lost (not olav), so at exit time he dives out and gets a heading and starts tracking as fast and flat as he possible could. He notices he can't see the olav anywhere and thinks he is kicking his ass till he looks down and olav is on his back under him, waves, and disappears.

Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you.

[jakee 1,257]

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so at exit time he dives out and gets a heading and starts tracking as fast and flat as he possible could. He notices he can't see the olav anywhere and thinks he is kicking his ass till he looks down and olav is on his back under him, waves, and disappears

Cool story

But (serious question) if he was tracking as best he could wouldn't he be looking down anyway?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[BlueSBDeath 2]

Steve, here is how you do it:
Track parallel to jump run with a ground observer to decide who won!! Like the attachment shows.

This is how we did it at Lost Prairie.

Good times!!!

Arvel

BSBD...........Its all about Respect,

USPA#-7062, FB-2197, Outlaw 499

[nbblood 0]

If you want to make sure that one doesn't get a jump on the other you can exit in a two-way round, facing each other. Orient so that when you both turn 90 it will be perpendicular to the jump run. On an agreed upon signal, turn 90 left or right and start tracking in the agreed upon direction. Pull at the agreed upon altitude. Have a ground observer judge. Make sure you have a plan if its neck and neck at the end to break off and gain separation.

The flattest track doesn't always win. Some people get incredible horizontal speed in a steeper track. They may get to pull time faster but they may go a lot farther horizontally.

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[pilotdave 0]

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The flattest track doesn't always win.

Yeah, it does. If you fall faster (vertically), you can still win by moving faster horizontally. But regardless of your speed, the flatter tracker will always win... unless maybe you're tracking into the wind and judging it from the ground. It's not about speed, it's about glide ratio. As I said in a previous post, that's true unless you judge it based on horizontal distance covered over a certain time. A steeper track might go farther over a 30 second period, but will not go farther over a 5000 foot descent.

Dave

[nbblood 0]

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The flattest track doesn't always win.

Yeah, it does. If you fall faster (vertically), you can still win by moving faster horizontally. But regardless of your speed, the flatter tracker will always win... unless maybe you're tracking into the wind and judging it from the ground. It's not about speed, it's about glide ratio. As I said in a previous post, that's true unless you judge it based on horizontal distance covered over a certain time. A steeper track might go farther over a 30 second period, but will not go farther over a 5000 foot descent.

Dave

No it doesn't. I understand what you're saying and agree with your principles, but let me give you a crude example. If one tracker tracks for 30 seconds (steeper)at 20 mph forward speed and another for 60 seconds (flatter) at 5 mph speed, the one with the steeper track is going to go farther horizontally. Twice as far in this example. I know this is a crude example and not really feasible. I just use these numbers to illustrate my point.

It is very much possible for a steeper tracker to go farther in the same vertical distance. I promise you.

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[Scoop 0]

Put a set of scales on the wall of a tunnel and see who creates the greatest 'push' with their head . Be like watching a sperm trying to bust its way in

[jakee 1,257]

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If one tracker tracks for 30 seconds (steeper)at 20 mph forward speed and another for 60 seconds (flatter) at 5 mph speed, the one with the steeper track is going to go farther horizontally.

Dave is basing his meaning of the words 'steep' and 'flat' on glide ratio, you're basing it on fall rate. Other than that, you're both saying the exact same thing

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pilotdave 0]

In your example, the one with the faster fall rate has a flatter track. Even though he's falling faster, he is falling at a shallower angle. He's just moving faster down the slope.

Look at it this way: faster faller covers the same vertical distance in half the time, so he has double the fallrate. At the same time, he has 4 times the horizontal speed. He is the more efficient tracker.

In this case, he would win both for distance covered over a certain time (aka speed) AND also distance covered over a certain vertical distance. But there are cases where a person could have greater horizontal speed and still lose a contest for tracking the farthest over a vertical distance.

If we changed the numbers in your example to horizontal speeds of 10 and 5, they would be falling on the same path and would get equally far by pull altitude. Maybe you'd use horizontal speed as the tie breaker.

The tracking skill that matters is maximizing horizontal distance over a fixed vertical distance. Doesn't matter how fast you can track... at least not directly. What matters is how far you can track after breaking off. Realistically, you'll need fast speed to go far... but fast is no good if it also means steep.

Edit: I'm sure somebody will point out there are cases where speed does matter, like a multi-wave breakoff. You don't want the second wave passing the first wave. So speed is important for maximizing separation in a case like that. But you'd get the same separation if everybody had the same slow speed and same glide ratio and you would if everybody had the same fast speed and same glide ratio. Speed only matters when slow people are in front.
Dave

[AdD 1]

I ran into this exact situation once. We exited a few miles upwind from the dz and lit her up, I was winning till I deployed and watched my friend keep tracking for awhile. I would say he won the race, but I didn't have to walk back to the dz. I barely cleared the fence on the runway and landed downwind, had to fly my ass off to make that one.

Life is ez
On the dz
Every jumper's dream
3 rigs and an airstream

[nbblood 0]

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In your example, the one with the faster fall rate has a flatter track. Even though he's falling faster, he is falling at a shallower angle. He's just moving faster down the slope.

Look at it this way: faster faller covers the same vertical distance in half the time, so he has double the fallrate. At the same time, he has 4 times the horizontal speed. He is the more efficient tracker.

In this case, he would win both for distance covered over a certain time (aka speed) AND also distance covered over a certain vertical distance. But there are cases where a person could have greater horizontal speed and still lose a contest for tracking the farthest over a vertical distance.

If we changed the numbers in your example to horizontal speeds of 10 and 5, they would be falling on the same path and would get equally far by pull altitude. Maybe you'd use horizontal speed as the tie breaker.

The tracking skill that matters is maximizing horizontal distance over a fixed vertical distance. Doesn't matter how fast you can track... at least not directly. What matters is how far you can track after breaking off. Realistically, you'll need fast speed to go far... but fast is no good if it also means steep.

Edit: I'm sure somebody will point out there are cases where speed does matter, like a multi-wave breakoff. You don't want the second wave passing the first wave. So speed is important for maximizing separation in a case like that. But you'd get the same separation if everybody had the same slow speed and same glide ratio and you would if everybody had the same fast speed and same glide ratio. Speed only matters when slow people are in front.
Dave

Now I agree with everything you've just said. I think we are saying the same thing in different ways. When I think flat I'm thinking body position. When you explain flat, you're talking about travectory. I agree with all of the above.

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[78RATS 0]

It was me so I can tell you he went by really fast.

The way they did it at Space Games (back in the day) was to fly a jump run parallel to the DZ (off set a mile or so) and track head to head.

Rule was you had to be open at 3K. They used Protracks to verify.

Just did it like a single elimination tournament.

The finals were a three way. Olav and Rook tracked farther but busted the minimum opening altitutde. Mike Swanson ended up getting 1st.

Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

[DSE 3]

Pilotdave, thanks for posting this info.
Over the weekend, had a track-off with a tall, skinny kid with tracking pantz, I was wearing jeans and sweatshirt and outweigh him by 40lbs.
He didn't have a prayer. I was farther out an significantly faster. surprised me that even with his pantz, I was roughly 200 yards ahead.
rules were similar, gotta dump by 3K.
Can't wait to try it again wearing *my* tracking pantz.

[JayFitz164 0]

I've got $50 on the lady.

[Eule 0]

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Like the attachment shows.

This is the very same attachment, but as PDF instead of Powerpoint. Just so more people can see it.

Eule

PLF does not stand for Please Land on Face.

[freeflysteve 0]

Track from exit to pull height.
Whoever cant fly canopy back to dz tracked the farthest and is the winner!

Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting!