Dumpster 0 #1 December 7, 2004 Just wondering how many DZ's in the U.S. are flying the PAC 750 yet? What's your opinion? Easy Does It Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
altichick 0 #2 December 7, 2004 Davies in Northern CA has one... ...not heard of any others yet. Don't sweat the petty things... and don't pet the sweaty things! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Brains 2 #3 December 7, 2004 Heard rumors of one dz in TX getting one. Haven't heard any more lately about it though. Never look down on someone, unless they are going down on you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chopchop 0 #4 December 7, 2004 Have you jumped one? Ick.. I think it's made for the kiwis.. It's certainy not made for full-size American males like me.. chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #5 December 7, 2004 QuoteIt's certainy not made for full-size American males like me.. Your ass get stuck in the door or something? Ok, seriously, what exactly don't you like?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumperconway 0 #6 December 7, 2004 QuoteQuoteIt's certainy not made for full-size American males like me.. Your ass get stuck in the door or something? Ok, seriously, what exactly don't you like? But Dave it's your DZ talked about! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chopchop 0 #7 December 7, 2004 QuoteYour ass get stuck in the door or something? Nah.. my ass may be wide but the Pac door is mucho wider than that.. It is very wide.. just not very tall.. The plane, especially near the door is very cramped inside. With my camera helmet on, even sitting on the floor, I had to bend my neck to the side or look at the floor. Our T.I.s hated it as well.. Too much sliding around on their asses trying to get to and out the door.. Other than that, it's fast, has a big door with room for plenty of floaters out there and is pretty in pictures.. We call it the cartoon plane from Davis.. chopchop gotta go... Plaything needs a spanking.. Lotsa Pictures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dumpster 0 #8 December 7, 2004 Haven't jumped one yet. We're considering one for our DZ. A couple folks are flying out to Cali to scope it out this month. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #9 December 7, 2004 Jumped it at WFFC this year. I'm 6'2 and did'nt have any issues in the door. WAY easier to jump then a Cessna.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #10 December 7, 2004 QuoteWAY easier to jump then a Cessna. That's a pretty low standard, considering what other options it's competing with. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #11 December 7, 2004 QuoteThat's a pretty low standard, considering what other options it's competing with. I don't think you understand what market the plane was designed to fill. It is priced and designed to take 182 DZs into a turbine AC. So it was designed to be able to fly very light (4 jumpers) and still turn a profit for the load. No other turbine out there can do that, that is in the same class. A porter could, but that's a whole 'nother box of worms for most DZs.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #12 December 7, 2004 I doubt very much that a DZ will make a profit flying a PAC 750 with 4 jumpers. Yes, the plane may make a profit, but a DZ won't. I see the PAC750 in the same class as King-airs, Caravans, and -24 otters. I think it's telling those are the same aircraft UTC uses in their cost comparisons. I do not see a $995,000 aircraft as a viable alternative to a $60,000 one. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dumpster 0 #13 December 7, 2004 We've been leasing turbines for the summer season for several years now- First a King Air for a couple years, then an Otter and last year a Caravan. I think the way the numbers are working out we may be able to purchase a PAC for less than leasing the Caravan, in addition to the lower operating cost. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #14 December 7, 2004 Quote I doubt very much that a DZ will make a profit flying a PAC 750 with 4 jumpers. Ok, let me explain this a little bit to you. As per the numbers I've seen (not from the factory), a 750 will make more money per load with 4 jumpers in it due to the use of fuel and tac time then a 182 with 4 jumpers in it. Quote see the PAC750 in the same class as King-airs, Caravans, and -24 otters. I think it's telling those are the same aircraft UTC uses in their cost comparisons. It is and its not. King Airs, not cost effective due to maintance (2 engines), fuel consumption (2 engines), gear maintance and issues and insurance. It VERY hard to get a new policy on King-airs right now due to previous skydiving activity and crashes (gear up landings, etc). Caravans are REALLY expensive, even for old models, the engines are smaller and it climbs slower. -20 Otter, once again, 2 engines, higher maintance. Never mind the size and fuel consumption of the plane and the climb rate of a -20 otter. The price is still very high on these guys since they're so desireable to many other operations besides skydiving. Basically, I'm getting the impression you've never been "on the other side of the fence" running numbers for different AC trying to decide the next step for a DZ, have you?--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #15 December 7, 2004 No, I don't run a DZ. I do have pretty good math skills, and I can't see how someone can fly a million dollar airplane with 4 $20 slots and make a a finance payment, never mind have something left over. With an interest free loan, a million bucks over 10 years is a hundred grand a year. If fuel were free, pilots grew on trees, and maintenance was a thing of the past, that plane would have to fly 1250 4-slot loads just to keep the bank off your back. If you've got some different numbers, please post them. As far as I can see, there isn't any way for a DZO to put food on the table by flying that plane with 4 jumpers. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #16 December 7, 2004 QuoteAs far as I can see, there isn't any way for a DZO to put food on the table by flying that plane with 4 jumpers. You're right, there isn't. There also isn't a way for a DZO to put food on the table by flying a 182 very easily. The point was, money returned per load, it is possible to fly a 750 and have a slightly higher profit with 4 jumpers on board, then a 182 going to 11k with 4 jumpers. It has to do with cost break down for 100hr maintance and fuel consumption. Is that how you want to fly it? No. To not just operate at a break even or slight gain for the load, but to operate at a break even or profit for paying the note and all, 6 jumpers are needed. That ofcourse changes if there are students or tandems on board, since a DZ makes a little more off of those then a fun jumper. You were jumping steps on me Andy. I was NOT saying you could pay for the note by sending 4 jumpers up, but that the load would be past the break even point for the cost of flying a load. Thus you're not operating at a total loss. That's important, since then you know that you can occasionally send the plane up with 4 and not loose your ass, like you would flying a King-Air, an Otter or a Caravan.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dumpster 0 #17 December 7, 2004 I would think that taking four jumpers on a PAC would be fairly uncommon. Perhaps the usual minumum would be 6-8 jumpers on a PAC. On weekends, put two 4-way teams on there with video and maybe a Tandem pair, or a bunch of Tandems and/or AFF1 students, a 10-way and a few freeflyers, etc - and we're talking some considerable revenue to offset those few 4-jumper loads that barely pay fuel and pilot. And I imagine we'll still have our faithfull Cessna for low-ceiling hop-n-pop days, too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robertmicp 0 #18 December 7, 2004 I have jumped the PAC750 at Skydance (Davis, CA) about 30 times and love it. Climbs like a demon with a full load to 13k very fast. Yes, if you by the door, very cozy, but, your out first Also, I think they took the camera step off the PAC750 at this time. "Also I heard the voice of the Lord saying who shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, here am I, send me." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dumpster 0 #19 December 7, 2004 I've talked to a guy who did wingsuit jumps from the PAC at Rantoul, said the "low" tail wasn't a biggie. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #20 December 7, 2004 I did wingsuit jumps and freefly and hybrid jumps from the PAC we have in Switzerland. The tail is no biggie, as long as the CG of the plane is respected and not everyone is at the door.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #21 December 7, 2004 QuoteI've talked to a guy who did wingsuit jumps from the PAC at Rantoul, said the "low" tail wasn't a biggie. Someone always has to cause trouble: wingsuit PAC-750XL tail trike. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #22 December 7, 2004 dave, did Bgill explain exactly how he exited ?? I also know of people who flew ABOVE the stab of the Porter...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #23 December 7, 2004 Yeah, there was an article on bird-man.com but it looks like they took it down. He's also a friend aquantence (j/k bobby!) of mine, so I've heard the story. He CLAIMS his wings were collapsed. You can't trust anyone with spikey hair though. But anyway, he managed to go up on exit, with his legs together and arms in or whatever wingsuit flyers are supposed to do on exit. The stabilizer hit him between the legs, but luckily he's got nothing there except wing material, which ripped. No damage to himself or the plane. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 135 #24 December 7, 2004 well just with any kind of aircraft, there are things to take care. Before and during flight, on jumprun and at the exit.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skydive2 1 #25 December 7, 2004 Ok, let me explain this a little bit to you. As per the numbers I've seen (not from the factory), a 750 will make more money per load with 4 jumpers in it due to the use of fuel and tac time then a 182 with 4 jumpers in it. *** your not too smart are you? Lance Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
