Update from B Burke re: SDAZ landing policy

[LouDiamond 1]

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how many are they averaging now?

Based on your last statement, I can only assume you have never been at SDA other than specific times of the year. The people who do competitively swoop are usually there when there aren't large groups of people or boogies going on because they are usually on tour doing the circuit or they want to avoid the large crowds. Which means they practice pretty much when ever they want the remaining time of the year. Those that do remain and teach canopy control courses on a regular basis are teaching people to land their canopies safely and very few of those students are doing anything more than a 180. The issue here isn't about the local pros, it's about the many,many average skydivers with varying experience levels that show up, don't know when to back off and create unsafe situations that have resulted in accidents and deaths. Have you listened to the interview Brian B. did on skydiving radio? If not, I suggest you listen to it as he addresses this as well as the other points of contention you erroneously think exist. If you have and you still believe these things without actually going there and seeing for yourself, I can only assume you are choosing to ignore the facts and will continue to do so no matter how many times you are told otherwise.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[billvon 2,470]

>i think if their was a tram that picked people up from the alternates more people would use them . . .

Not a complete solution. Perris has a pickup truck, driven by a most dedicated staff member, who chases down cutaway mains and picks up anyone who lands off the grass any significant distance. Generally, if you land within half a mile of the DZ but not on the grass, Tim will have you back before the people who landed on the grass even cross the runway. But the grass is still a lot more popular.

I do agree that it's a good idea to have a service like this, though. It definitely helps encourage people to land out when traffic is bad.

[itllclear 1]

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Perris has a pickup truck, driven by a most dedicated staff member, who chases down cutaway mains and picks up anyone who lands off the grass any significant distance. Generally, if you land within half a mile of the DZ but not on the grass, Tim will have you back before the people who landed on the grass even cross the runway.

An it IS appropriate to tip the driver for the quick ride back to the packing area.

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your second sentence answered your question."

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[azdiver 0]

sda has the same thing an old van that they will go out into the desert that picks up outlanders. but considering sda has two trailers for hauling people out to the plane, i think they could use one to pick up people landing on the alternate and then make the alt at the tunnel a swoop specific lz, problem solved swoopers still can swoop when ever and not have to walk all the way back. it is almost 1/4 of a mile walk to the packing area from the tunnel where as the main lz is about 60 feet from the packing tents.

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

[Zenister 0]

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how many are they averaging now?

Based on your last statement, I can only assume you have never been at SDA other than specific times of the year..

I'm sure you know what assumptions are worth.
You still havent addressed the question.

How many swoops were made by the 'pros' at Eloy EVERY DAY until this policy was in place?

How many are made now?

How many 'Pros' (Both Fully Professional and Semi Professional swoopers) have worked there over the last several years? Pretty much every one of them swooped (more than 180) EVERY SKYDIVE.

That is now not allowed... so tell me why someone who's focus is canopy piloting and HPL would want to jump/work at Eloy, when by policy they can no longer practice what (for them) was their 'normal landing' and for many the entire point they skydive?? I've heard more than one say "If I could afford it, I would just do H&Ps all day."

How many people come to Eloy SPECIFICALLY for Canopy instruction (including swooping) from those resident Pro's? Why would anyone who's focus is canopy control and HPL even consider Eloy as a destination with this policy in place?

While we are on the subject of what the Top Tier does regularly, it is a very good thing Eloy has a tunnel, without it you'd likely start losing Freefly Coaches as well. How many of the Top Tier of Freefliers DO NOT SWOOP as a matter of course??

Why go to Eloy to train now when there are other equally professional dropzones without such restrictions?

All of these points of contention DO exist, no matter how you try to gloss over them up as non issues. I know very well what the problem is, there is no disagreement on that point. You however are doing a fabulous job of ignoring the problems with the current 'solution'.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[kallend 1,678]

So what is your solution to prevent swoopers from killing other skydivers?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[LouDiamond 1]

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How many swoops were made by the 'pros' at Eloy EVERY DAY until this policy was in place?

I know how this can seem confusing to you and it's clear now that you are not differentiating training from working.For those who work for the DZ in some form and are on a work jump, they are not swooping like they would in competition unless the conditions allow for it. There is a distinct difference in what you do at work and what you do on your time. That doesn't mean those people are not swooping, they are, just nothing over 180 in the main landing area.

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How many people come to Eloy SPECIFICALLY for Canopy instruction (including swooping) from those resident Pro's? Why would anyone who's focus is canopy control and HPL even consider Eloy as a destination with this policy in place?

A majority of the people that take those courses are still learning to fine tune their canopy control and as I stated, are not doing anything over 180 to begin with. For those who are working on things bigger than 180,which is a very limited amount, they arrange for it now, instead of doing it with normal traffic.

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Why go to Eloy to train now when there are other equally professional dropzones without such restrictions?

Well for one, because its now safer for EVERYONE. All the other reasons such as aircraft, weather ,etc are already major factors. Swooping isn't banned there, there are just more defined rules on when and where it can happen.

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All of these points of contention DO exist, no matter how you try to gloss over them up as non issues. I know very well what the problem is, there is no disagreement on that point. You however are doing a fabulous job of ignoring the problems with the current 'solution'.

HMM, let me see if I have this straight. The current solution reduces the chances of people running into and killing each other. How is that solution a problem exactly? I am not ignoring the "problem" as you put it and I don't think SDA is either. The majority of skydivers out there "get it". The difference is that those who don't "get it" think there is a problem with the solution. More importantly, how can you put more credence in the wants of a few over the good of the many and believe it is more important than a human life?

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[rehmwa 2]

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How many 'Pros' (Both Fully Professional and Semi Professional swoopers) have worked there over the last several years?

How many of the Top Tier of Freefliers DO NOT SWOOP as a matter of course?

I love this presumption - luckily, Top Tier RW types at least don't have to worry since they don't swoop. You, know, guys like Shannon and Ian.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Jumpah 0]

I'd like the following questions answered by someone who knows the answer (no guesses):

How many professionals have left Eloy solely because of this policy?

What percentage of the professional population does this represent?

[LouDiamond 1]

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How many professionals have left Eloy solely because of this policy?

To date, none.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[ORANGENBLUE 0]

Dusty will be leaving soon.

After spending a week there, I witnessed at least two close calls, three times where people were landing the wrong direction after the pattern had been set (into the wind) and one person doing 360's in the pattern. The new policy has done nothing to increase safety. If anything it has made it harder to predict what people are doing in the pattern. FYI only one of the instances that I saw was a swooper contributing to the problem.

[riggerrob 562]

Then the @$$hole doing 360 in the pattern needs to hear harsh words from DZ management!

Back in 1980 (Easter Boogie in Z-Hills), the DZO (Hooper) had harsh words with me about hook turning.

His harsh words worked on me!
My approaches got far more predictable and the swelling in my knee subsided.

Why change an old behavior that worked?

Stupid manuvers - in the landing pattern - deserve harsh words from DZ management!

[azdiver 0]

i dont think his leaving would be solely based on the landing policy, as bryan burke said in his interview on the radio 270 can be done at the tunnels lz just have to tell manifest. but i dont see alot of those swoopers using it.

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

[Remster 24]

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Dusty will be leaving soon.

My take on this was that this was in the works well before this all started, for completely unrelated issues. But, Dusty would be the one to confirm.

Remster

[toronto_bill 0]

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but i dont see alot of those swoopers using it.

Are back to back loads an issue? Or is it too far to walk?

My two cents is SDAZ is trying to make it safer. I respect them for that. We don't like it too much, but we're the problem as jumpers. After 4 fatalities, its totally justified until things change.

Is Eloy the best spot to train to swoop aside from jumpable days/year?? Low humidity, and high elevation? I am not on the PST...but 'competition climate' on average is what?

Bill

[gjhdiver 0]

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it is effectively banned.

Then go somewhere else. Seriously.

I ran a drop zone that was nearly as large as SDAZ, and to be frank, it was always the people wanting to do the more extreme stuff that put us all at the greatest risk, both personally and financially. To assume that SDAZ just want to ban swoopers for purely financial reasons is absurd. They've worked fror years to try to accomodate them it seems. However, I see no reason for them to continue to expose the visiting jumpers to added risk, or themselves to liablity by allowing it to continue. We lost two good people on Dec 30 there from exactly this approach, one of them from our own DZ.

The bottom line is that the swoopers are a marginal part of the business that expose the DZ to risk in any number of ways. If all you want to do is swoop, then a small Cessna DZ makes much more sense. You'll get out low, do your thing and have the sky pretty much to yourselves. They'll appreciate your business and probably make a lot more out of you. You'll get to fly the way you want without restrictions.

I had to restrict a lot of things that smaller DZ's can accomodate when I was running Z Hills. It wasn't that I didn't like them or had anything against them, it's just that they didn't mesh with the special considerations that come with running a large multi-plane turbine DZ. Just because there are locals jumping at these big DZ's doesn't make them a club. They exist becuase they service tourists, and that's pretty much the way it is. Try not to take it personally.

[mirage62 0]

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Dusty will be leaving soon.

So if Dusty does leave that would be ONE.

Hardy the mass desertion that many people would claim would happen.

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[azdiver 0]

i think its the distance right now as to why no one is using it, i agree that they are try to make it safer and i applaud their efforts. before this change i avoided the main at all cost for fear i would end up in someones blind spot or cut some one of that was in mine.

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak