Who enforces BSRs?

[diablopilot 2]

We know who should, but who does, and how?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Elisha 1]

What are BSRs?





















kidding (but you said you're an asshole now, so this should be trivial by comparison)

[tdog 0]

Quote

We know who should, but who does, and how?

Ok, I will bite...

You are trying to stur up some long argument here...

But, more importantly:

"Who determines that enforcement of BSRs is so lax that people are getting hurt?"

Except for crash landings - we don't have lots of areas in our sport where trends are hurting people.

[diablopilot 2]

Well you know how I like to stir the pot, but I am also trying to point out a flaw in the system.

Who enforces BSRs?

S&TAs? Not as often as we'd like to think. To often they are not out in the field, or are hamstrung by the DZO/DZM.

Instructors? We might mention them, but too often are ignored.

DZOs? Most of them have a great apreciation of saftey in our sport, but when things get trivial, who wants to be bothered?

Jumpers? Yeah right.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[gauleyguide 0]

...gravity!?

"Don't keep your pilot chute a secret"

[stratostar 5]

For me it would depend on what BSR is busted and who did it. For example, my 73 yr old jump buddy who has been jumping for 50 yrs now smokes it down and pulls under 1k, I won't say a word to anyone other then him and then I will only give him a little shit for it. WHY because he has been pulling low longer then I have been alive,and has more low pulls then most people have jumps and if he is down and dirty he planned to be there, that is why.

Now one of my students or fresh A license dose the same thing, they will be met in the LZ and have a good talking too and based on their answer I will decide what action to take, give the wrong answer you get reserve handle yanked and grounded for 30 days. They do it again there is no talking to just a handle yanked, 3rd time I will ask the DZO to send them packing.

Now having said that, I have only had a couple people who just didn't get it and it wouldn't matter how many times you talked to them. The last lowtimer I met in the LZ was at last years Richmond boogie, she will tell you, I was standing in the LZ waiting on her to land after a low pull (1500ft) with under 70 jumps. What was said was, why did you pull well under 2000, she said I pulled a 2.5, I said bullshit the fans not the players, why did you pull so low? Answer was the velcro on her wrist mount was in the way. I laughed and said you really need to think up a better excuse, who do you think your fooling here, if I see you pull that low again I will ground you the rest of the boogie, now go get packed and get your deployment alti back up where it should be. She went on doing as she should and thanked me later for calling her on it. The reason I didn't take any action (other then telling others to keep an eye on her) was because she knew she screwed up bigtime.

Now just reading that story it could sound as if I was being a dick, when in fact it was a normal tone of voice and she knew she was busted when she landed based on the smile/blush on her face and she did try to think up a good excuse. There has never been another issiue with this person pulling low and I don't think we will see it again unless there is a really good reason to be there, and we haven't had a problem with her again.

At this point I could care less about the BSR's being broken, unless your one of the students under my supervision or a instructor working with them, or endangering the well being or lives of others around you. Now FAR's is a whole other story.

DZO's & S&TA's should be enforcing them but a lot don't and some are real hard ass about it and you won't see many busted if any at those DZ's.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[billvon 2,400]

>Who enforces BSRs?

In the end, DZO's. They're the only ones with any real power at any drop zones. Good DZO's listen to their S+TA's and instructors so they don't have to be the "cop".

>DZOs? Most of them have a great apreciation of saftey in our sport,
>but when things get trivial, who wants to be bothered?

Most don't want to be bothered - which is why they often listen to their S+TA's and back them up, so they don't have to listen to someone's excuses for doing stupid shit.

[glorystomper 0]

Quote

...my 73 yr old jump buddy who has been jumping for 50 yrs now smokes it down and pulls under 1k, I won't say a word to anyone other then him and then I will only give him a little shit for it. WHY because he has been pulling low longer then I have been alive,and has more low pulls then most people have jumps and if he is down and dirty he planned to be there, that is why.

Let me get this straight - because he has a lot of jumps, you think it's ok for your buddy to pull below 1k? Meanwhile, you're supporting a formal rule that would essentially ban swooping from many small DZs because you think swoopers are a danger? If you're going to get on a soap box about safety, a little consistency would be well advised. How can you expect to be taken seriously as a safety advisor if you're going to selectively advocate such reckless behavior?

Whoever enforces the BSRs had best be consistent about it.

[mnealtx 0]

The same folks that would enforce the W/L BSR that you were all in favor of a year or so back...



That said - I think it has to come from jumpers as well as the DZO's...but at least a BSR will give them some teeth and tone down some of the "he's just against swoopers" BS that you *KNOW* some will pull...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[stratostar 5]

Quote

a little consistency would be well advised

I have always said if you want to kill yourself fine go right ahead and do so, you want to endanger others with your actions get the fuck off the DZ!

It is no diff then if you want to jump a bed sheet, fine. if you want to hook yourself into the ground, fine do it away from where others are landing and the students don't have to watch it.

How can you expect to be taken seriously as a safety advisor if you're going to selectively advocate such reckless behavior?

Quote

For one thing I'm not an S&TA, and with some poeple I see don't pulling low as "reckless behavior" dangerous YES, reckless, NO. And that is not saying it isn't reckless for some people to do, I don't advise people to do it, but if your going to do it you better have your shit together.


***because he has a lot of jumps, you think it's ok for your buddy to pull below 1k?

I didn't say I thought it was ok, don't put words in in my typing! What I'm saying is if there is anyone I know who can do as safe as it can be done it is this guy, and if I was going to do it he is the guy I would turn to for help in doing something that crazy, not because he has a ton of jumps but because he has the experiance (many years worth) of doing it. Just like if I wanted to get into the PST I would ask JC or Clint to train me, swooping is just as dangerous as low pulls.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[itllclear 1]

Quote

We know who should, but who does, and how?

As a legal procedure, except for an action against a rating holder, which can be done by an S&TA, only USPA by an action of the Board of Directors under section 1-6 of the Governance Manual. http://uspa.org/publications/manuals.pdf/Gov.Man.April06.pdf This basically requires the Regional Director to start the procedure after being informed of the matter from an S&TA, and the penalty that can be imposed is revocation or suspension of a rating or membership in USPA. These actions are not that common, and usually are as a result of some action so outrageous that there is little controversy as to whether the action is warranted.

As a practical matter, a DZO can use the BSR's as justification for saying "I don't want your business." Of course, a business owner can say that at any time for just about any reason, so long as it's not a civil rights violation. Many DZO's set regulations much stricter than the BSR's and ground people for violations without intervention of USPA.

There have been instances in which USPA has revoked/suspended a membership, and a non-USPA Group Member DZ has allowed the individual to jump.

Bottom line, except in exceptional circumstances, safety enforcement is a DZO issue. Many DZO's like BSR's because they save the DZO the work of setting up individual safety policies by saying "You violated a BSR. I have take some action against you, or my USPA Group Membership is at risk."

BSBD

Harry

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[crazydiver 0]

Quote

Quote

a little consistency would be well advised

I have always said if you want to kill yourself fine go right ahead and do so, you want to endanger others with your actions get the fuck off the DZ!

It is no diff then if you want to jump a bed sheet, fine. if you want to hook yourself into the ground, fine do it away from where others are landing and the students don't have to watch it.

Would that person with 70 jumps who pulled low not be "only endangering herself?" This must be OK from what you are saying. And yet...you reprimanded her.

Caveat: I think you were correct in speaking to the person...however...to say that if a person wants to endanger themselves and you are ok with it, then why is this person an issue for you?

Cheers,
Travis

[ebusto 0]

Quote

... give the wrong answer you get reserve handle yanked and grounded for 30 days. They do it again there is no talking to just a handle yanked ...

Everyone makes mistakes, otherwise there would be no injuries or fatalities. In those situations, I applaud your decision to talk to people and point out those potentially harmful mistakes. However, I sure hope you are joking about pulling their reserve handle.

Anyone who touches my gear without my permission better have a cup handy.

[stratostar 5]

Quote

I sure hope you are joking about pulling their reserve handle

That is very old school style of grounding, and no I'm not kidding, if your so stupid to do something that would require a grounding on the spot the other riggers won't repack you. (you really fucked up super big time for that to happen)

Quote

Anyone who touches my gear without my permission better have a cup handy.

While that maybe true, if you need to get a handle yanked, then more then likely there will be some jumpers being held back from kicking your ass.

With that said the last time I saw handle yanked was in 85. even though there have been many who should have had it done, I can think of a few dead people who may not be dead now had it been done to those who took them out, despite being talked to time and again they didn't stop till someone else paid a price for their actions and in some cases even then they didn't stop.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[billvon 2,400]

>Anyone who touches my gear without my permission better have a cup handy.

It's still done occasionally, but generally reserved for the worst offenses.