Dangerousmind86 0 #1 June 21, 2007 So on jump number 22 I pitched at about 5300' and had the hardest opening I've ever had. I was flying a 210 Saber 2 loaded at 1.13-1 with 5-600 jumps on the line set. I was pretty stable upon opening but I couldn't believe the opening shock. So damn hard it snapped both my brake lines. The left was right above the finger trap to the toggle and the right was right below the upper line group 6 inches from the finger trap. I had about 5 line twists so I kicked out of them but Fu%& I was hurting! I grabbed my toggles and stuffed them in my jumpsuit and did a controlled canopy check and pumped my rear risers. Checked for any other trailing lines and decided I was good. I flew it nice and easy while practicing rear riser flares and landed it on the rears with a nice controlled but slide My rigger is replacing the brake lines and going over the canopy today so thats covered. I know I had my slider up and un-colapsed. so htat wasn't the problem. I may just need to pack better What say you?ANDY Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 4 #2 June 21, 2007 Those sare fairly standard places for lines to break under heavy loads. You might contact PD and see if they recommend a larger slider. ALthough this canopy may not have a history of bad/hard openings. They put a bigger slider on my pal's sabre2-190 and it is much better now. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #3 June 21, 2007 Do you REALLY know your slider was on stowed and up? You might actually only know if there is video!In my much younger days I actually got to the point of putting the bag in the container with the slider still at the links. While this is very hard to imagine I actually believe I may have done this once. I had an opening on a Cirrus Cloud main that had me hanging in the harness for 1500' and checking my pants for real. I have never, on any canopy and on any jump ever had an opening any where near that hard. And this was on a big puffy 5 cell non zp with dacron lines. Yours may well have been the dreaded line dump. Do a search, read the stuff on PD's web site and good job checking things out. While cutting away might have been an appropriate option for some I'm always glad to see someone heads up enough to keep their main and not go to their last chance to live if they don't have to. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yardhippie 0 #4 June 21, 2007 I imagine that was the factory set of lines? Are you sure about the number of jumps? Hard openings can break lines, sometimes those hard openings are packing errors, sometimes its fall rate. If your jump numbers are correct and you packed it, theres a good chance its a packing error: loose tail, semi-collapsed slider, or others I dont know. Glad to hear you're ok and landed safely.Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD "What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me "Anything you want." ~ female skydiver Mohoso Rodriguez #865 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #5 June 21, 2007 Good job assessing the situation. Alot of people would have cut that away. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nbblood 0 #6 June 21, 2007 Do you know that the slider was ALL the way up, against the canopy. If it slides, even a few inches you could potentially get slider rebound that may cause a harder than normal opening. On opening the slider initially goes the rest of the way up til it hits the canopy, then rebounds quickly down the lines, or shoots down the lines. This causes the canopy to inflate faster. If you don't control the slider while putting the canopy in the bag, or check to ensure it is still all the way up, it can happen. OTOH, I know of a couple people that had real trouble with their Sabre2's and hard openings. One of which had an opening very similar to the one you described, resulting in a cutaway. Another that resulted in compression fractures of vertabrae. The broken lines were on a Sabre2 210 and the canopy was eventually replaced by PD. I have a ton of jumps on Sabre2s and the only times I had hard openings were while pulling while still in a track. Then they were rather brisk.Anyway, good job handling the situation. Glad it worked out for you and hope you can figure out the problem. Blues, Nathan If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 93 #7 June 21, 2007 Are your d-bag's locking stows (or at least the middle ones) broken? Perhaps the canopy dumped out before line stretch, some call it line dump, others call it bag dump.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #8 June 21, 2007 Are you sure the brakes were stowed? Who packed the main? Quote So on jump number 22... I was flying a 210 Saber 2 loaded at 1.13-1... Umm... never mind... I won't go there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #9 June 22, 2007 It's common for canopies to start opening worse as the line set ages. Not normally that hard though . Ask your rigger to check the trim and see if the canopy needs a reline. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dangerousmind86 0 #10 June 22, 2007 Yes I know the slider was up because I definately remember packing it an sperating my lines. I had to collapse the slider after the opening so I know it was open. When I daisy chain my lines after landing my slider stops the last link at the top of the lines. This keeps it at the top. I dunno, people at my Dz have also suggested line dump ANDY Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bch7773 0 #11 June 22, 2007 had you been tracking before deployment? MB 3528, RB 1182 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #12 June 22, 2007 How tight were the rubber bands - around your line stows? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dangerousmind86 0 #13 June 22, 2007 Yes I was tracking a bit and I know that didn't help. ANDY Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dangerousmind86 0 #14 June 22, 2007 Not nearly tight enough. I'll be double wrapping from now on. I just jumped the chute again yesterday with the new lines and it flew great. I'm rolling the nose now and double checking my slider over and over ANDY Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mktoson 0 #15 June 22, 2007 Instead of double wrapping large rubber bands why not just get small rubber bands on those stows? So far, this is the oldest I've ever been. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dangerousmind86 0 #16 June 22, 2007 The first half are. I'll be replacing the rest on my next jump. Thanks!ANDY Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bwilling 0 #17 June 22, 2007 Quote Instead of double wrapping large rubber bands why not just get small rubber bands on those stows?Crazy While I agree that could be the most appropriate step, and certainly the most preferable one as opposed to double stowing, I'm convinced it's not viable in some cases... I've had an out of sequence deployment. It wasn't a 'hard' opening, it was a 'violent' opening, and it broke 10 of 18 lines on the canopy. I packed it, just as I had the previous 50+ times that all opened fine. I'd never been happy with tightness of my stows, despite using small bands. It was micro lined 7 cell canopy, and even with the small bands, the stows weren't anywhere near tight. I don't really blame the canopy in question, people have had hard openings on a wide variety of canopies. But I suspected bag strip, so when I replaced it, I decided to see for myself what kind of pull force was really involved on the canopy I currently owned. PD publishes specs for stow retention force, it's 8-12 pounds. It's also pretty easy to measure within reason, I just bought a fish scale, and set up some pull tests. I was surprised by the results. The canopy I currently jump is a 9 cell, with dacron lines, so lots of bulk... I still don't get quite 8 pounds of pull force with the small bands on anything but the locking stows, above the cascades. It takes large bands, double stowed, to get 12 pounds, even with my bulky lines. So that's my current setup, small bands on the 4 locking stows, large bands doubled up on the remaining stows. I've experimented, and I won't argue that the small bands release more smoothly, and are logically at least, less likely to be whipping the deployment bag into a frenzy and inducing line twists. In real life, I've got more jumps double stowing now than I had not (50 plus each way), and single stows still lead 1-0 in the line twist dept. If you double stow, I'd highly suggest using a standard mil-spec band, because they break. And in my not so scientific test, occasionally the double stows 'hang up', and only release because they break the band, at roughly 20 pounds in my tests. If the band doesn't break... it's gonna be ugly! I have a humongous pilot chute on my rig, so I'm less concerned about whether it has the pull force to break the band if need be, than I am about having another one of those openings. Disclaimer - I'm not a rigger, or even a really smart guy. I'm just a guy that got whacked, and bought a fish scale. YMMV "If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peek 20 #18 June 22, 2007 QuoteI just bought a fish scale, and set up some pull tests. Disclaimer - I'm not a rigger, or even a really smart guy. I'm just a guy that whacked, and bought a fish scale. YMMV Thank you for taking the time to put a little science into it instead of just guessing like most people, (including some riggers.) Hard openings are seldom caused by just one factor. Your rig is a system, and many things must be considered to insure proper deployment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jbanning 0 #19 June 22, 2007 I fly a sabre and i have found out with mine that if the nose isn't rolled and tuck way back in it opens very hard, its a charactersitic of the canopy. I have never flown a sabre 2 but I would assume it would be about the same! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #20 June 22, 2007 Quote ...When I daisy chain my lines after landing my slider stops the last link at the top of the lines. This keeps it at the top. I dunno, people at my Dz have also suggested line dump not to nitpick, but anything you do while daisy chaining your lines / carrying your rig in / whatever... has nothing to do with how your slider is positioned durring packing. The easiest way for your slider to get out of place is poor slider control when you are folding the canopy into the bag. Other problems can include bad quartering though I have found that to be much less likely of a problem.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fast 0 #21 June 22, 2007 QuoteI fly a sabre and i have found out with mine that if the nose isn't rolled and tuck way back in it opens very hard, its a charactersitic of the canopy. I have never flown a sabre 2 but I would assume it would be about the same! And you would be wrong to make that assumption. They are for all intents and purposes completely different canopies.~D Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me. Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #22 June 22, 2007 QuoteI've had an out of sequence deployment. Can you please give some more details about this? -Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bwilling 0 #23 June 22, 2007 QuoteCan you please give some more details about this? Sure. I called it an out of sequence deployment, because it wasn't just a hard or unusually fast opening, the kind that happens 'normally', but a little too fast for comfort. I think the bag got stripped prematurely, because before I got to full line stretch, I'm pretty sure I already had an inflating canopy. To say there was no 'snivel phase' would be a gross understatement! Unfortunately there's no video, but it felt like running into a brick wall. I've never experienced anything remotely like that, despite jumping back when our all F-111 canopies were designed to open 'fast'. I'm actually glad it broke 10 of 18 lines, because all that energy was going somewhere (most likely my body!) before it was released. I never saw any of the inflation of course, I pitched, yelled, looked up, saw stars, trailing lines, and a canopy that looked like a cigar, and chopped. I was lucky to survive with little more than a sore neck for a few days... but I can fully understand the potential for it to be much worse now. "If all you ever do is all you ever did, then all you'll ever get is all you ever got." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #24 June 22, 2007 Ahhh, so by out of sequence, you mean you believe the canopy as inflating before you had line stretch? That is a definition of the term I am not terribly familiar with, I was envisioning something totally different, thanks for the clarification. It would seem to me that this type of opening would have been so violent, it would have given more than a sore neck, or you are just tough! I will post an opening that I caught on video, it sounds like a freaking cannon went off! Kicked my helmet with my R foot, could barely breathe and definitely saw stars for a while, was in bed for days and did no jump for around a month. Will look for that vid…Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dangerousmind86 0 #25 June 22, 2007 In reply to "Fast" I was just mentioning this to provide a reasonable proof that my slider was at the top of my lines. not at the bottom as some have suggested.ANDY Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
