why?

[LegallyGirl 0]

im new to it, why back-up parachute pack by rigger than main by urself or packer? is it different pack way? why aad allow exprience open back up parachute at 750ft? it too low.

[Anvilbrother 0]

Redundancy first of all to have 2 parachutes. Second yes it is a different packjob than your main and the parts are different also. Third a rigger does it b/c he is certified by the FAA to do so which gives the sport a way to verify it should be being done correctly. Last of all 750 should be enough time if everything goes right, but you know murphy he will bites us sometimes.

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[LegallyGirl 0]

Quote

Redundancy first of all to have 2 parachutes. Second yes it is a different packjob than your main and the parts are different also. Third a rigger does it b/c he is certified by the FAA to do so which gives the sport a way to verify it should be being done correctly. Last of all 750 should be enough time if everything goes right, but you know murphy he will bites us sometimes.

if rigger packed and use back up parachute and it failure too. i saw on videos both main and back up failures and survived. rigger's fault? FAA fire rigger or lost license?

[Anvilbrother 0]

No unless the rigger was negligent in his work it is just left up to chance that a double malfunction happens. They do but they are rare, and can usually be prevented by good gear maintenance, and following the skydiver SIMs

http://www.uspa.org/PUblications/SIM/2007SIM/SIM.htm

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[LegallyGirl 0]

how you answer to if you were black out and found yourself under parachute at under 750 ft by aad? fast answer and control to landing or off landing? if you stuck in tree's hang in forest? you cut or wait?

[Anvilbrother 0]

Depends. If you are high enough and able to steer into the wind and land in a open area do so. If you find yourself in danger fast your priorities are keeping the parachute over your head ie not in a hard turn, slow down if you can, and protect your body. If landing in a tree that means arms tight to your side legs together, if your about to impact ground that means a parachute landing fall manuver. If water, loosen straps, judge depth of water, and prepare to cut away once your feet enter water so that you can get some distance from yourself and the parachute that could cover you and make it hard to swim. All this is described in the SIM that I linked above. You should read it from front to back a few times, talk with your instructors for sure incase I left out details, or mis guided you on something.

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[Anvilbrother 0]

oops forgot to answer your tree hanging question. The ideal thing is to sit and wait if you are more than 10-15 feet off the ground. If you are not rescued then and have to get down you can disconnect your rsl and deploy your reserve WITHOUT CUTTING AWAY from your main. You can then try to use the suspension lines on the reserve to climb down. If your really high and have to get down. You can try to swing to the trunk of the tree, bear hug it then cut away your main and attempt to slide down the tree. Like I said above your best bet is to stay in the harness and be very still to prevent yourself from becoming detached from what is holding you up ie breaking a tree branch off.

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[skydivingchad 0]

PA removed by slotperfect

How do you have 146 jumps and not know the correct answer for dealing with tree landings? Do you really want to be responsible for a fatality when someone either hangs themselves or breaks their neck in the effort to climb down from a tree based on your 'directions' of climbing down the reserve lines????? It only takes a couple of inches shy of the ground to hang yourself... it has happened more than once in the past.

Please read the SIM, talk to your instructors, don't answer questions that you don't know the answer for.

Legallygirl... if you find yourself in a tree... WAIT FOR HELP. Secure your position in the tree by bear hugging it. Help may not be there in a short amount of time, it may take a while to find you, but be patient. It's better to wait for help than break your neck or hang yourself. Buy a SIM, talk to your instructors in person, take a first jump course. Blatantly unsafe answers like the one you received here is exactly why you need qualified instruction at your home dropzone.

Chad

Sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug.
Pelt Head #3

[Anvilbrother 0]

I stated 2 times that the best course is to stay put...did you not read that?? I said IF you had in situations like rescuers did not come to help, the alternative is to try to use self rescue as a last resort. I bet most jumpers would attempt to climb down after a day of hanging in a harness. I also said to read the SIM a couple times, and talk to your instructor in case of bad info. Did anyone else have a problem with the advice? nice personal attack tho.

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[sparkie 0]

Quote

oops forgot to answer your tree hanging question. The ideal thing is to sit and wait if you are more than 10-15 feet off the ground. If you are not rescued then and have to get down you can disconnect your rsl and deploy your reserve WITHOUT CUTTING AWAY from your main. You can then try to use the suspension lines on the reserve to climb down. If your really high and have to get down. You can try to swing to the trunk of the tree, bear hug it then cut away your main and attempt to slide down the tree. Like I said above your best bet is to stay in the harness and be very still to prevent yourself from becoming detached from what is holding you up ie breaking a tree branch off.

Anvil "MacGuyver" Brother?

[hackish 8]

Quote

how you answer to if you were black out and found yourself under parachute at under 750 ft by aad? fast answer and control to landing or off landing? if you stuck in tree's hang in forest? you cut or wait?

If you black out, the AAD deploys your reserve and you end up in a tree pulling the cutaway will not do anything as the only way to cut a reserve away is with a knife. I've started carrying my cell phone when I jump.

-Michael

[NWFlyer 2]

Have you taken a first jump course? Not just a quick instruction before a tandem jump, but the full instruction that you would take to do a solo skydive?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[DSE 3]

Quote

oops forgot to answer your tree hanging question. The ideal thing is to sit and wait if you are more than 10-15 feet off the ground. If you are not rescued then and have to get down you can disconnect your rsl and deploy your reserve WITHOUT CUTTING AWAY from your main. You can then try to use the suspension lines on the reserve to climb down. If your really high and have to get down. You can try to swing to the trunk of the tree, bear hug it then cut away your main and attempt to slide down the tree. Like I said above your best bet is to stay in the harness and be very still to prevent yourself from becoming detached from what is holding you up ie breaking a tree branch off.

Tree landings as per SIM:
Trees

1. Avoid trees by careful spotting and a good approach pattern plan for the conditions.

2. The potential dangers of landing in a tree extend until you are rescued and safely on the ground.

3. Make any low-altitude avoidance turns from braked flight to avoid an equally dangerous dive following a turn from full flight.

4. If a tree landing is unavoidable:

a. With a ram-air canopy, hold the toggles at half brakes until tree contact.

b. Prepare for a PLF; often the jumper passes through the tree and lands on the ground.

c. Protect your body.

(1) Keep feet and knees tightly together.

(2) Do not cross your feet or legs.

(3) Cover your face with your hands while holding your elbows tightly against your stomach.

d. Steer for the middle of the tree, then hold on to the trunk or main branch to avoid falling.

e. If suspended above the ground, wait for help from drop zone personnel to get down.

f. Don't attempt to climb down from a tree without competent assistance (rescue personnel or properly trained drop zone staff).

LegallyGirl, your dropzone staff should be able to show you everything you want to know about a reserve. Someone always needs to have their reserve repacked.
The reserve is a different packjob that takes significantly more time, care, and consideration. Riggers use tools that help them keep all lines clean, and help assure that the reserve will open properly and quickly. Riggers are specially trained in packing reserves, and their training/certification is regulated by the FAA in the US.

Anyone that is a skydiver may pack a main parachute, and packing the main by yourself is a requirement to obtain a license.

[Loonix 0]

Hanging in a skydiving harness for a longer period of time is very dangerous due to constriction of bloodvessels. SIMs are one thing, but I believe common sense is a fairly good substitute. If I feel confident that I can climb down, I will.

[jtval 0]

Im surprised anyone would answer a person whos login name is LEGALLYGIRL when she doesn't have any personal info in her profile.

The real answer should be TALK TO YOUR INSTRUCTORS OR UPDATE YOUR PROFILE.


Until you do that, you're a troll.

My photos

My Videos

[Anvilbrother 0]

I stated everything from the sim even stating 2 times to stay in the tree, but if help never arrives gave 2 options to try to escape. What the SIM says is bullshit. If help never comes and you don't try something there would be skeletons hanging in trees.

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[slotperfect 7]

[warning]

PAs are not allowed in the forums.

[/warning]

Arrive Safely

John

[slotperfect 7]

I strongly recommend that you fill out your profile so we know a little bit about you. We have been burned before in these forums by anonymous users with blank profiles asking "innocent" and many times controversial questions just to "stir the pot" for their own entertainment (trolls).

Learning to skydive: the majority of your questions can best be answered in your first jump course and your early training by your instructors. Another good source of information (as already stated) is the USPA Skydivers Information Manual (SIM).

The thread continues . . .

Arrive Safely

John

[stratostar 5]

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If help never comes and you don't try something there would be skeletons hanging in trees.

And your statements speak loudly that you sir have not and do not run student Op's or daily DZ Op's where each jumper is accounted for. I have never seen anyone hit a tree or stand of trees that went unnoitced and no one went out to assist the jumper out of the tree or trees.

However I know of two people who hung them selfs by not waiting for the help that was on the way to help them get down. And two that died from being impailed by braches, so there is some good advice in there. While you say,

Quote

What the SIM says is bullshit.

Well maybe you could re-write it for us to read, "do to the large number of dead peoples skeletons hanging in trees and scaring the wuffo's that pass by we advise you to take action right away and do not wait for help and climb down, fall, jump, slip or any other type of escape from the trees because all the skeletons hanging around are making us look bad".

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[pinkfairy 0]

Quote

Hanging in a skydiving harness for a longer period of time is very dangerous due to constriction of bloodvessels. SIMs are one thing, but I believe common sense is a fairly good substitute. If I feel confident that I can climb down, I will.

Do you have any personal experience with this, or are you a medical proffessional?

I happen to have hung in the harness for two and a half hours suspended from my 220 sqr ft student parachute. In the end it was getting a little painful and tiring, but I didn't suffer any lasting injury from hanging in the harness.

The only thing that I could do to save myself in that situation, was to remain calm and wait for help. People have hung themselves in the harness while trying to take it off while suspended, and in my case, pulling the cutaway handle would have caused me to fall about 25'.

The DZ staff will not give up until they find you, and they even found me, who landed away from the road and a long way from the DZ in forest that looks like a big, featureless green blanket wherever you look.

I'm not planning to land in a tree again, but I really feel that I did the right thing after it had happened, and that what I learned from my instructors was the best alternative. I wasn't left to die from thirst or hunger in the forest, and to be honest, I never really thought that would happen. I thought they'd find me and rescue me, and they did. I even got to do my second skydive that day (this time with a standup landing on the grass. Lots better than the tree).

Maybe someone with medical competence can say how long one can hang from a skydiving harness before it becomes dangerous? 2.5 hours was clearly OK, and that should be ample time to be rescued.

And to the original poster: the question you asked in your first post has been asked many times before in these forums, and you will find many very good explanations if you do a search.


Edited to add: The harness was a PdF Atom Student harness, and the canopy a PD Navigator. The canopy didn't rip and drop me to the ground, and after an inspection by a senior rigger, it was pronounced airworthy again, and the harness was remarkably comfortable even for longer periods. Maybe I should write reviews for these two great products?

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[Loonix 0]

Sounds like you did the right thing. I'm not suggesting anyone should downclimb unless they are confident they can do it.

I'm a climber, and therefore have some knowledge on harnesses. My previous post may have been a little bold, but from my knowledge, hanging in a harness for prolonged periods of time IS dangerous. More so with full body harnesses (such as a skydiving harness) than with a regular climbing harness. I googled now, and did not find any overly convincing sources to show, although here's something, at least:

Quote

There have been some tests conducted that suggest hanging in a harness longer than 20 - 30 minutes may seriously increase the risk of blood clots, embolisms or other circulatory problems. Seizures are another concern. In short, if you spend too much time hanging in that harness you could die there.

http://www.sapsis-rigging.com/articles/UB.FAResc.html

There are other threads on this forum concerning passing out due to blood "getting stuck" in your legs, basically lowering bloodpressure in your brain, causing unconsciousness. That is only part of the problem; the actually dangerous part is the forming of bloodclots.

I know there are people on this forum that can shed some light on this, hopefully they'll chip in.
...

ok, a little more googling, and we got this: http://www.suspensiontrauma.info


edit: nevermind the rest of my post, just read suspensiontrauma.info .. it sure was an interesting read. Bottom line: if you really were suspended for 2.5 hours without support for your feet, you were LUCKY.

[Anvilbrother 0]

All I was saying is what if no help comes. What would you do. Wait one day, two, a week? Things happen, the chance that you could not be found while landing off near a busy dz in the U.S. is probbaly low. What about a off landing in a part of the country where the temps go below freezing at night, or in another country where training, and rescue personnel is non-existent and you have to rely on yourself.

I posted the sims is bullshit in frustration at the time, but what I meant was the SIM stops short and says to sit and wait, and nothing else. I was told, and know the SIM was learned and wrote in blood by the jumpers before us, and such a desperate and risky chance to use your reserve to climb down, but it is an option if there are none other.

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[pinkfairy 0]

Quote

Bottom line: if you really were suspended for 2.5 hours without support for your feet, you were LUCKY.

When hanging in a tree, there are more options than just hanging in the harness. I had the tree trunk right in front of me, so grabbed that and held onto it for periods so taking the pressure off my legs. I could also shift possition slightly in the harness by going from hanging to "sitting" in the harness once I had grabbed hold of the trunk. So the fact that I survived hanging in the tree wasn't luck, I just wasn't completely suspended all the time, and I think that applies to many other "tree huggers"

My point is that the alternative to waiting for help wasn't very appealing in my case. There were no climbable branches in the tree below me, only some way above me, I knew I couldn't climb down using the trunk alone, if I could get loose without falling or hanging myself. I'd rather risk suspension trauma, than a much bigger risk of death by hanging or falling. Just think about it: how easy is it to keep hold of the tree trunk while pulling the cutaway handle? What excactly would happen if you try to loosen straps on the rig while hanging in it? How easy is it to judge distance, especially when in a high stress situation?

And to someone else here in this thread: Days? Weeks? What do you mean? I've never seen that happen or heard about it. Where I jump, every one gets counted while under canopy and while coming back to the hangar. The students have big, brightly colored main canopies, and even the white reserves stand out pretty well against the green forest. If someone is hanging in a tree, they're pretty easy to spot from the jump aircraft, because the the canopy will be entangled with the tree canopy, and you don't usually see pink trees. It's a matter of hours, at most. But maybe someone else with more time in the sport than me can confirm or deconfirm this.

The recommendations in the SIM and what you learn in the skydiving course are the way they are for a reason. They work, or at least they give the least risk of injury.

Just my real life experience and real life story from the very embarrassing start of my skydiving career.

Relax, you can die if you mess up, but it will probably not be by bullet.

I'm a BIG, TOUGH BIGWAY FORMATION SKYDIVER! What are you?

[Anvilbrother 0]

Yea like I said above, it is probbaly rare in the U.S. that you would not be found with in hours, but other countries might be different, and even in the U.S. a person might not be able to hold out anymore due to the environment, injuries, or being in the harness.

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[stratostar 5]

I get your point and I was yanking your chain for the most part. But I still teach the SIMS in a FJC and have found it works when in use by students who fly off to the trees.

No I don't expect someone to freeze to death, but I do expect them to stay put and wait for help with in reason.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo