Handling SL/IAD students in a Cessna

[lippy 776]

I was wondering about different ways of putting static line or IAD students out of a Cessna. In Canada I've only seen where the instructor is beside the pilot, and the students are facing the front of the plane when the door opens, then they shimmy on out and the next one comes up. Every time I've seen SL in the US they reverse the position, so that the student is facing the rear of the AC when the door opens.

I'm not sure how common the method I've seen in the US is, but to me it seems a little more sketchy, in that the student has to do a 180 going out the door to get into position for a hanging or poised exit. I think this would introduce more chance for bumping somthing or falling. It also makes it more difficult for the next student to get in position, as he has to pass beside the instructor. Is there an advantage to this that I don't see?

What does your DZ use and why?

I got nuthin

[wildfan75 1]

Who spots? With the instructor on the floor next to the pilot, seems like it would be hard to spot from there.

Also, having the student next to the pilot is a better position for the instructor to help the student out and hold the s/l.

Maybe I'm just imagining the instructor next to the pilot configuration wrong.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Who spots? With the instructor on the floor next to the pilot, seems like it would be hard to spot from there.

Why? You stick your head out the door and look down. If this doesn't work how on earth do you teach someone else to spot? Put them in the position that doesn't work?

[billvon 2,434]

>Every time I've seen SL in the US they reverse the position, so that the
>student is facing the rear of the AC when the door opens.

Has the following advantages:

-Easier to talk to student; facing him the whole time
-JM basically has the rig in his face during student climbout; good control of rig and good control of SL
-Student can grab strut _before_ he starts to move; gives him a bit more control/leverage

Has a few disadvantages:

-Getting the next student into position involves a lot of gymnastics
-Some students would rather see what's going on

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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Has the following advantages:

-Easier to talk to student; facing him the whole time

Negative: The aft facing instructor is facing all his students all the time.

[wildfan75 1]

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Who spots? With the instructor on the floor next to the pilot, seems like it would be hard to spot from there.

Why? You stick your head out the door and look down. If this doesn't work how on earth do you teach someone else to spot? Put them in the position that doesn't work?

We usually don't get the door until just before the spot. We spot looking out the door window. I learned how to spot using landmarks to know where we are directly above so you don't have to have the door open for five minutes before you actually get out. I guess we spot differently.

[billvon 2,434]

>Negative: The aft facing instructor is facing all his students all the time.

Ah, so the instructor is seated in what I call "student" position, butt on the floor facing backwards? The way I'd seen it done was with the JM kneeling and doing a lot of turning around.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

That's right. You are on your knees face to face with student #1. If you are climbing out with the student (possibly for S/L but absolutely for IAD) you stick your left foot out to block as soon as the door is open and tuck it back as you say "get ready' or what ever you say.

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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We usually don't get the door until just before the spot. We spot looking out the door window. I learned how to spot using landmarks to know where we are directly above so you don't have to have the door open for five minutes before you actually get out. I guess we spot differently.

No, I think we spot the same. i consider the part before the door opens a "pre-spot" that still needs to be confirmed (especially for line) by looking down after the door is open. This can be done from any position in the plane.

[stratostar 5]

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In Canada I've only seen where the instructor is beside the pilot, and the students are facing the front of the plane when the door opens & I've seen SL in the US they reverse the position

That's because in the U.S. we do it the right way and those ass backwards canooks are just trying to be "special"..........I bet they had the book upside down while reading it.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[wildfan75 1]

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We usually don't get the door until just before the spot. We spot looking out the door window. I learned how to spot using landmarks to know where we are directly above so you don't have to have the door open for five minutes before you actually get out. I guess we spot differently.

No, I think we spot the same. i consider the part before the door opens a "pre-spot" that still needs to be confirmed (especially for line) by looking down after the door is open. This can be done from any position in the plane.

How do you pre-spot then if your sitting on the floor next to the pilot?

[Andrewwhyte 1]

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We usually don't get the door until just before the spot. We spot looking out the door window. I learned how to spot using landmarks to know where we are directly above so you don't have to have the door open for five minutes before you actually get out. I guess we spot differently.

No, I think we spot the same. i consider the part before the door opens a "pre-spot" that still needs to be confirmed (especially for line) by looking down after the door is open. This can be done from any position in the plane.

How do you pre-spot then if your sitting on the floor next to the pilot?

I'm on my knees. I can see fine. That said I have spotted from the old man spot sitting on my ass; you just have to have a good grip on the landmarks.

[NickDG 23]

The "best" way with students (in a small Cessna) is one student next to pilot (up against the panel) facing aft, the JM between, or straddling, their legs facing forward and the rest in the back. That way the JM can reach all the students if they start doing something weird or need help with anything. After the first student exits the JM turns around and hooks up the next guy, does a gear check, and then moves 'em forward to the door. Rinse & repeat . . .

NickD

[everymansaved 0]

I can see a few problems with that. First, you can't see all your students at once like you can when you're sitting beside the pilot. You may not be able to reach them all, but you can certianly get their attention. Second, the student's rig is right up agianst the controls. I know that most/all Cessnas have a control protector, but is it 100% effective? How about the student attacking the pilot with their rig when they turn around? That might not be an issue, I'm not sure how you do climbouts from that position. I also wouldn't be thrilled with adding the complexity of turning around into the climbout process. And lastly (I'm sure there's an answer to this). How do you move on to the next student. Perhaps it's just that it's winter and I haven't sat in a jump plane for a month or two, but is there a way to do it other than to shimmy back, let the next one go from the old man seat to the student position?

God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires.

[wmw999 2,148]

It was easier for me than most; I'm 5'4" and can stand bent over in a C182. Since I'm American, I do it the American way.

Turning the student 180 seems easier to me than having him reach over me (and my stuff) to reach the strut; no need to expose the length of his body to the air before holding onto something.

The commands are
"put your feet in the door
- (move slightly toward the rear of the airplane and pivot 90 degrees on your ass, getting your feet on the step)
"get out on the step"
- (put left hand on strut, and with the jumpmaster controlling the static line and the bottom of the rig, make your way out as far as the DZ decrees)
The jumpmaster holds the static line in the left hand above the student and outside of his reach (so that you're not bending your right elbow backwards against the door). The door braces you
"GO"
- (Well, duh.) The static line feeds out the left hand, you can short-line the student if you need to, and keep the static line out of his way, following him visually.

Moving the next student in is done while the plane is going around, preferably with the door shut, but if there isn't a door, then with it open. It is the trickiest part, but, again, at my size it was no issue.

It's been quite awhile since I did this, but I doubt it's changed a whole lot...

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[everymansaved 0]

Yeah, I can see it being a bit harder @ 6'1"!!

God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires.

[pchapman 262]

Everyone's got a different way... and here's another, at a long running school in Ontario, Canada.

The jumpmaster is behind the pilot, kneeling, facing sideways towards the door.
#1 student is on the right side, at or just aft of the rear of the door, kneeling, facing forward.
#2 and #3 students are in the back, kneeling.
#4 student (if weight permits) is in the copilot position, on his butt, facing aft, keeping his legs to the side when the others exit.

This is in a widebody 182 with increased gross weight from wing extensions.

The instructor can see and supervise all four fairly well. Has to lean forward quite a bit to see out the door, and to keep that first student back a bit to do so. But he has good control of the #1 student he is facing, to check gear both in front and back. If needed, he can help the student's climbout with a hand at the student's side, on the harness near the hip junction.

To get #4 turned around and up on his knees for the exit, the door is closed both to avoid problems if anything catches, and to reassure the student next to the open door.

[NickDG 23]

>>Second, the student's rig is right up agianst the controls.
This is all harder to explain then it is to do. If we were in a hangar with a Cessna and holding a Jumpmaster cert course I could show you why my way might be better.

And I'm not sure how you are looking at this, but the jumpmaster isn't sitting down at any time, you are up on your knees. (Put the seatbelt around your legstap). The right side yoke and control rod is of course removed (if either isn't then bitch about it) and the only two things you have to watch is the mixture control on the panel (and if anything they'd push it in rather than pull it out) and the fuel selector on the floor. But that's part of your job as JM and Cessna jump pilots are alert to these things as well. Also in the FJC I always walk out to the actual plane with students and use it as a training aid, between loads, as in, "Don't bump this or touch that . . ."

And the first student doesn't "turn around" he just swivels to the left to put his feet out (and even going back to the days of bulky gut gear) is not a problem for the pilot, it's easy as pie. And I've done that JM turn hundreds of times. The point is, as the most experienced jumper on board you should be doing as much of the moving as possible.

Also I've been in a few bad A/C emergencies with static line students in Cessna aircraft. The first was an engine failure after we went looking for a hole and we were low, over some mountains, and miles from the DZ when it quit. I got all three students out, the first under his main because his S/L was already hooked up, and the other two under their reserves and I left at 600-feet. The pilot crashed with the plane. I know being in the position I was helped in that situation. I could see the impossibe terrain in front of us, I could get to everyone, and I didn’t have to scream and yell to brief the plan which resulted in calmer students.

The second time was coming out of Elsinore when the Cessna threw a rod through the side of its crankcase and oil completely obscured the windscreen. We didn’t know what happened and it sounded like the prop was coming off. I thought the engine was going to vibrate off its mounts. So I got three students and myself out before going through 1500-feet and again being were I was, and seeing what was happening helped.

But, like someone else said, everyone has their own way. The most important thing is to have a plan for whatever can happen. But I just don’t like a student between me and another student. Suppose someone in the back has an open container, Cessna's don’t always have a door, or they get sick, or lots of other things only experience will teach you. Ever have a student not be able to get his seatbelt off at a thousand feet, or whatever altitude your DZ uses? You can’t do anything about that if you are four feet away. Ever have a student start to freak out due to turbulence? Sometimes a re-assuring hand on their shoulder helps a lot. And you can't do that from four feet away either.

I also like facing the direction of flight because I have some flying experience and I'm also an A&P mechanic and I like being able being to see the oil pressure, the fuel gauges, and so on. One time, and again at Elsinore, this forward facing JM position paid off once more. We were taking off and just as we broke ground I saw something the pilot didn’t. There was another Cessna landing in the opposite direction. I yelled, "traffic, bank right!" and the pilot did, and it was damn close but we missed each other. I also like to scan for air traffic on the climb. Two pairs of eyes are always better than one.

Oh, and there was the time at Cal City when the pilot passed out and slumped over controls as we were midway through our take off run down the runway. If I would have been up against the panel facing aft we would have been screwed. As it was I got the power and mixture pulled out, pushed the first student to the right, and reached down for the right side rudder pedal and brakes with my hands. We went off the RWY (I was trying to keep it going straight just on feel) but I got her stopped . . .

But sure, you go ahead, and sit where you want . . .

NickD

[DeNReN 0]

Hey NickD....may I ask how many different ways you have tried when dispatching S/L and IAD??

[NickDG 23]

It would be fair to say I've tried every way possible when I was a younger jumpmaster . . .

NickD

[lippy 776]

You raise some good points I hadn't thought of before, and you've tossed more students then I have jumps. I'm also not an instructor although I've spent a shiteload of time in Cessnas watching students get pitched.

I still think the Canadian way is better though(much like our beer). The student doesn't have to turn around on exit and there's less shuffling around between students. With the instructor on his knees facing the back of the plane, he can watch everything and keep an eye on what's happening as well as make eye contact with the students in the back of the plane, to reassure them or distract them from dwelling on how scared they are. If they're about to get sick he can throw them a spare static line bag, and if they can't figure out the mechanics of a seatbelt they shouldn't be allowed to get out the door.

Although in a rare case that a pilot passes out and the JM happens to be a pilot, facing frontwards is a damb good place to be.

I got nuthin

[peckerhead 0]

I have done it Nicks way for years and I think it works just fine. It is more comfortable for the student to sit facing the rear. However, I prefer to have both the student and the JM on their knees facing forward with the student in front. The other students are also on their knees facing forward so it is easy to move them up into position. I have used this method in both Cessnas and Beavers, 3 to 8 students per load.

I have dispatched most of my students this way for over 20 years now. With the student already facing forward they are already facing the direction of flight so they don't have to turn around.

Here is a video of the method we currently use, we have made a few small changes since the video was made but the position of the JM and student is the same.

Student IAD Jump

[billvon 2,434]

>First, you can't see all your students at once like you can when you're
>sitting beside the pilot.

True - but by leaning back you can see them all _and_ reach them all. It's a lot easier to do the gymnastics of getting the second guy ready when you're there to help them.

>Second, the student's rig is right up agianst the controls. I know that
>most/all Cessnas have a control protector, but is it 100% effective?

As Nick mentioned, you have to remove the right side yoke. (Not just for the possibility of them hitting it; imagine a SL looped around the yoke, even momentarily.)

>How about the student attacking the pilot with their rig when they turn
>around?

The way we did it:

1) Student grabs the strut while seated.
2) Student puts one foot out on the "upper" step.
3) Student turns his body towards the door, leans out, and rotates until his other foot on the wheel/lower step. (JM helps by manipulating his rig.)

>And lastly (I'm sure there's an answer to this). How do you move on to the
>next student.

1) JM moves backwards
2) Student behind pilot moves his butt left
3) Student moves his butt forward (backward in his perspective) until he's against the front of the plane (usually a piece of plywood there to stop him.)
4) JM resumes position

[everymansaved 0]

Yeah, I can see how you'd make it work, it just doesn't seem as smooth in my mind. Maybe I'll have to try it with some up jumpers.

God made firefighters so paramedics would have heroes...and someone can put out the trailer fires.

[NickDG 23]

>>Student IAD Jump<<

Very good IAD technique. I cringe when I see JMs leave a lot of bridle flapping in the breeze. Nice second check on the PC too.

I remember when second checks on PCs, and before that static lines, weren't so universal. Most thought it was something a JM would never neglect since making sure your student gets a deployment is why you're being paid.

But in the 1980s it happened here in So Cal. The student was a single leg amputee (but otherwise very athletic and capable) on a first jump from a Cessna. There was a last minute gear switch from the DZ's normal student gear to something a bit smaller and lighter. The JM was current and well respected.

The end result, for whatever reason, was the student exited without the static line being hooked up and went in with nothing out. The JM immediately stopped working with students and it was a very sad affair all around. And it was a big wake up call for the rest of us.

The story gets even weirder and ties into another current thread here about less than perfect DZOs. This particular one was the poster boy for shady DZ operators. After the student went in this DZO went out and removed the still stowed static line from the dead student's body. Some said he did it to protect the JM, but I'm pretty sure it was all about protecting his own assets. The JM went along with it at first, but under routine questioning from the FAA broke down and told the truth. The failure of the student to perform EPs was laid on the fact the last minute change in rigs moved the handles from the position previously practiced on.

I'd worked for this DZO at an earlier time and it almost cost me a serious injury. Unknown to us, and without an A&P certificate, he was doing all the maintenance and repairs on his Cessna. One day the small jump step broke off the airplane's gear leg and overnight it was repaired with a new step. A few loads later I was sitting in the door of that Cessna with my legs dangling outside the aircraft and a full load of S/L students on board. The taxiway was unpaved and bumpy so I put my feet up on the step just as the gear leg snapped off. Had my legs been hanging down I'm sure they would have been crushed under the fuselage.

What happened is the DZO welded a new step onto the gear leg without knowing that sprung Cessna gear legs are heat treated parts. And if you apply the heat of a welding torch to them they have to be heat treated again or they will be severely weakened. Soon after this the DZO cashed out and disappeared into the sunset. So be careful, these guys are out there . . .

Anyway, after the static line incident we all went to doing second checks. Some use the pilot and some the student. I prefer the student as they know what type of jump they are doing, and are taught not to climb out without that JM/student static line check. And an otherwise distracted pilot might not always be thinking about what type of jump a particular student is doing.

On the JM being a pilot too. I don’t think that's necessary but I do suggest all new JMs (and yes, I know the JM title is gone, and I hate that) who are working with students in Cessna type aircraft at least go and take a few hours of dual flight instruction. Just enough to know what all the dials and widgets are on the panel, enough to be able to see the fuel selector is not set to off, enough to know how important it is to scan for traffic, and maybe enough to know how far and fast a Cessna will glide and lose altitude in an engine out situation. Probably a bit of overkill there, but like grandma's chicken soup, it can’t hurt . . .

NickD