to chop or not- this might be you someday

[sinjin 0]

this was on a tandem video as a cameraman with a demo pilot 117 (loaded 1.6) and demo rig packed by a dz packer. normal deploy at 3500 as the spot was very long due to uppers in 30-40 mph range. i pull the toggles to do the canopy control check and realize something is wrong.. my brake lines were pulling the rear risers down. actually they are knotted to the risers equally (it was knotted once, but at the time i could not tell) . so i make a small left and right turn and it is turning ok and i get some flare with the risers.. i cant see great with a ring site covering one eye and dark goggles so in flight rigging did not seem an option although i gave it a thought. altitude is maybe 2000 at this point and i give it a couple more rears flare checks and decide to land it as it is... ground winds are 15mph ... i do my normal approach with a 180 front riser turn to double riser approach to ty to get some forward speed. i use the toggles to rear riser flare. i landed very hard in the peas with a stand up landing. finished my tandem video landing and gave a big sigh of relief.

some things i would have done differently looking back.. first now i am thinking i have no idea what size reserve it was as it was a demo rig and i forgot to ask.. not that it affected my decision but should have known.(so note to self if you borrow a rig, ask what reserve is in there every time !!!!!) there is a very soft alternate student landing area and i should have gone there.. i opted for the main as i was doing a paid video and wanted to get the tandem landing but i could have easily hurt myself badly with that choice.. i dont think i could have untied the toggles even knowing what was wrong without inducing a bad spin needing both hands to untie the knot.. looking back i dont think i would chop but would have landed in the soft student area.

i am not sure what the packer did to create this but i told him that what he did made a knot on the riser. i was turning and i did not find out what he did exactly. i made sure one of the other packers showed him how to do it properly and moved on.. lesson learned you never know when it is going to happen to you, it may be the next jump !!! hope someone can mentally prepare for this as they read it if it happens to them....

thanks and blues

p

dont let life pass you by

[brettski74 0]

Do you set your brakes before coming off the landing area, or do you leave that for your packer to do?

I was taught to always set your brakes straight away when you land, so I've always done it that way. I'm not sure that I know all the reasons for doing so, but it does help avoid getting twists in your brake lines. It would also mean you have some idea that they were set properly and not with a knot.

I've seen a few ways that carelessly setting the brakes can lead to knots when you try to unstow them in the air, but I think different systems for stowing the brakes and the excess line can have different failure modes that lead to knots. There have been a few threads on here about such things. Maybe you should do a search and see if any of these apply to what happened with your demo rig.

[sinjin 0]

sometimes i have time but most of the time when i am doing video i do not. i do put the toggles in the stow but do not set the brakes. but i certainly should have done the brakes and the slider in the hanger as it is always smart to do when using a packer (CYA),, i usually one have one rig and dont have this issue, but there were demos avail and i was turning loads doing videos and did not take the time to do it.. lesson learned. take the time.. thanks for the suggestion on the search , i will check it out

dont let life pass you by

[wrightskyguy 1]

You mentioned that dark goggles affected your decision making but didn't mention them in your lessons learned. Drak goggles sure look cool, but if they negatively impact your decision making, ditch them.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

[damion75 0]

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i do my normal approach with a 180 front riser turn to double riser approach to ty to get some forward speed.

Hmmm. I'm not convinced that if I had some canopy trouble (knotted brakelines etc) and was not sure what it was (even if I was sure)... that getting extra landing speed or front risering the canopy would really be my priority.

I would probably have taken a straight in landing. Just my thoughts...

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[steveorino 7]

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i do my normal approach with a 180 front riser turn to double riser approach to ty to get some forward speed.

Hmmm. I'm not convinced that if I had some canopy trouble (knotted brakelines etc) and was not sure what it was (even if I was sure)... that getting extra landing speed or front risering the canopy would really be my priority.

I would probably have taken a straight in landing. Just my thoughts...

My same impression. Poor trade off if you ask me.

steveOrino

[crazychickUK 0]

I had a similar problem only I didn't have the strength to steer or land on back risers. As I'd always been taught to ask "can I fly it? can I land it?" and the answer to both was no my decision to chop was a really simple one.

I got a bit of stick from someone a few weeks later. She told me that I'd chopped a perfectly good canopy. It may well have been a perfectly good canopy but what good is it if I can't fly or land it.

Oh - and the silly woman hadn't even been on the DZ at the time!

[packerboy 3]

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i am not sure what the packer did to create this but i told him that what he did made a knot on the riser. i was turning and i did not find out what he did exactly. i made sure one of the other packers showed him how to do it properly and moved on.. lesson learned

I would have stuck around to find out. Perhaps the other packer showed him the wrong way the first time. How was the brake set wrong? You say in flight rigging? If you were in the air with the thing for 3500 ft and you still don't know what he did wrong, then maybe you are the one who needs a packing lesson. I'm not sure I would trust you with on the ground rigging.

What did you learn? Don't trust the packer? Land in the soft grass when you have a questionably landable canopy? I'm not really sure that I follow the logic of you learning anything.

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[PhreeZone 15]

I've done this a couple of times on my old risers. It was due to basically reaching through the loop in the excess line and pulling the toggles through it, its easy to do depending on how you stow the excess line.

Doing the front riser turn was a really bad idea and you should have forgot about it since your canopy was in half brakes at that point and the addition of the inputs you were giving the canopy and the possibility of turbulence due to the winds could have lead to a collapsed canopy real easy. You had a malfunciton, why try fora swoop in the middle of it?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[champu 1]

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i do my normal approach with a 180 front riser turn to double riser approach to ty to get some forward speed.

Hmmm. I'm not convinced that if I had some canopy trouble (knotted brakelines etc) and was not sure what it was (even if I was sure)... that getting extra landing speed or front risering the canopy would really be my priority.

I would probably have taken a straight in landing. Just my thoughts...

My same impression. Poor trade off if you ask me.

The problem with doing a high performance landing when you have a broken brake line or bound up brake lines is that you can't bail out of a turn very effectively on rears. Even if you've done a particular turn hundreds of times, you are under more stress this time. If you misjudge your turn and find yourself digging on rears you're going to stall your canopy and break yourself.

Also (and this applies mostly to the broken line scenario as it sounds like his hands were in the bound up toggles during the turn) if you hesitate / fumble when going to rears from fronts and don't have your hands in your toggles you're going to break yourself.

In a situation like this, with 15 mph winds and a 1.6 wing loading, it should be a piece of cake to have a nice soft landing on rears with no induced speed.

[kaerodyne 0]

Paul,

Any reason you did not bring this to the attention of the Aerodyne Demo Team that was at your DZ on the day yo had this issue?

I can see by the style of your post that your not having a go at Aerodyne, but more a heads up and look what happened to me.

However after speaking to my demo team, they informed me that you made no attempt to discuss or mention this to them, any reason for this?

Blue Skies

Karl Meyer
Marketing Coordinator
Aerodyne Research
Office: 1 813 891 6300

[davelepka 4]

Dark goggles - stupid

Ringsight - stupid

Jumping a rig you know nothing about - stupid

Jumping that rig on a paid jump - unprofessional

Tossing the 180 with the brakes stowed on a canopy you're doing a demo on - dumbest of all

This is a canopy you have one maybe two jumps on, and you're going to swoop it with the brakes stowed?

This was a long spot, so I'm guessing you didn't burn the altitude to throw a few practice 180s with the brakes stowed. But right next to the ground, you went ahead and did it (most likely for the first time).

On top of that, you say you flared with the toggles, which were still attaced to the risers. What happends when one of them releases in the middle of your swoop?

I would highly reccomend you take another look at your priorities in terms what gear you jump, when you jump it, and most importantly, what you do with it.

You were lucky to avoid an injury on this jump.

[packing_jarrett 0]

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Dark goggles - stupid

Why?

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Ringsight - stupid

Why?

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Jumping a rig you know nothing about - stupid

What? how will someone ever know about it then? Granted you have a general idea. i.e. size, # of cells, material, etc.

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Jumping that rig on a paid jump - unprofessional

Why Not?

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Tossing the 180 with the brakes stowed on a canopy you're doing a demo on - dumbest of all

agreed. answer mentioned from earlier posts.

Na' Cho' Cheese

[Cashmanimal 0]

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Dark goggles - stupid

Ringsight - stupid

I would like some clarification as to why jumping the ringsight was stupid. I suppose the only real STUPID conclusion that could come out of that is the combination of dark goggle and the ringsight, and maybe it was a late-evening jump?

And I would also like some clarification on why the goggles were stupid. If this jump were made at noon, perhaps they might have been an asset so he wasn't squinting at his canopy through the sun beating him in the face. It sounds like this wasn't the case, but I was just wondering. I assume the goggles are going to provide a much less-constricted field of view than a pair of sunglasses would, something I see vidiots wearing quite often as well.

Aside from those two details, I do agree that pretty much everything else was "stupid." I would hope that if you had time to get back from a long spot and hook it that you also had time to set up for a straight-in. Of course, this is not always the case... but if it isn't I think an alt. landing area would have been a wiser choice. I have done many straight-in landings on my Spectre 150 loaded at 1.3 in 15 MPH winds... yeah, it was slow, but it was much safer than swooping a canopy I don't know which is bound up by a malfunction.

I don't know your landing area, DZ, canopy skills, experience and I wasn't there. It's easy to say what I would have done when I am siting at a desk talking on an internet forum. In the long run, you are alive and un-injured....

It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

[billvon 2,435]

>Why?

First off, none of those things was "stupid" just not ideal. Everyone makes mistakes; the smarter skydivers learn from them. With that in mind:

>Dark goggles

If you are wearing any eye protection that prevents you from seeing critical parts of your parachute, that is bad. You cannot deal with a malfunction or parachute problem if you can't see what's going on.

>Ringsight

See above. If you can't see around it at all, change the mount to one that allows you to see. If it's just in the way a bit, flip it out of the way so you can see after you open.

>Jumping a rig you know nothing about

You should have a general idea of any rig you jump - what the main is, what the reserve is, where the handles are, where the RSL is and how it works, how the toggles work, how the PC works and (especially for a cameraman) how it opens. Wearing a camera can turn a brutally hard opening from a painful experience to a fatal one.

>Jumping that rig on a paid jump

Not a safety issue, just a performance one. If the rig you jump prevents you from doing your job, then it's an issue of professionalism - someone's paying you to do something, so you do it rather than try a cool new rig that might interfere with that.

However, it does NOT sound like that was an issue on this jump.

>Tossing the 180 with the brakes stowed on a canopy you're doing a demo on

As has been pointed out before, this is a big mistake.

[davelepka 4]

Billvon beat me to it. His reply was correct.

[wrightskyguy 1]

He stated in his post that the dark googles were a contributing factor to him not being able to identify the problem he had with his toggles.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

[davelepka 4]

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I would like some clarification as to why jumping the ringsight was stupid

In this case, it was blocking his clear view of his toggles. Of course, that means that it's also blocking a portion of his view at all times, which is also bad.

Lastly, a ringsight has proven to be a snag hazzard, and there are alternatives without the risk.

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And I would also like some clarification on why the goggles were stupid.

In this case, they were preventing a clear view of his toggles. Of course, that means they were also blocking a portion of his view at all times, which is also bad.

Lastly, dark goggles prevent other jumpers from seeing where you are looking, and to some degree the expression you have on your face. In a tandem with video scenario, the TM and camera flyer are able to communicate through hand gestures, and facial expressions (including looking in a certain direction, or at a certain area of the rig). Dark goggles limit this communication.

[sinjin 0]

well i will try to answer as much as i can..

it was a day jump and i do wear the dark googles as it is bright but going to look at other options.

i could certainly look at a moveable ring sight which may have helped this problem. i do believe in the right sight to shoot really high quality work but acknoledge it has risks and hazards which i accept but should/could minimize.

i did check the pins and cypress and it did not have an rsl.. i just did not ask what the reserve was and i should have.

my line of thinking on the front risers was to try to generate some more lift with forward speed. i did do 2 hard 90's on fronts as a control check once i decided to land it above the hard deck. but as pointed out this was not a good idea. thanks for pointing out that it was not beneficial and i hope others (and i have) can learn if this happens to them. that is why i posted this.. good advice on not using the toggles as it may come off at any time.. i will grab rears next time.

dont let life pass you by

[Cashmanimal 0]

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I would like some clarification as to why jumping the ringsight was stupid

In this case, it was blocking his clear view of his toggles. Of course, that means that it's also blocking a portion of his view at all times, which is also bad.

Lastly, a ringsight has proven to be a snag hazzard, and there are alternatives without the risk.

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And I would also like some clarification on why the goggles were stupid.

In this case, they were preventing a clear view of his toggles. Of course, that means they were also blocking a portion of his view at all times, which is also bad.

Lastly, dark goggles prevent other jumpers from seeing where you are looking, and to some degree the expression you have on your face. In a tandem with video scenario, the TM and camera flyer are able to communicate through hand gestures, and facial expressions (including looking in a certain direction, or at a certain area of the rig). Dark goggles limit this communication.

I thought you were referring to this case specifically. There is no question about the ringsight being a snag hazard etc... I assumed he was an experienced tandem vidiographer, or had the experience to be using the ringsight at the least. I thought you meant using a ringsight on a paid tandem video was stupid.

And well pointed out about tinted goggles... but does this raise the case for EVER wearing a tinted anything? Perhaps more appropriate for another thread, but there is also a case to be made here for the experience between the TM and the videographer... for the benefit of this thread, I will agree and say yes, dark goggles were a bad choice to pick up prior to getting on the plane (I was also referring to this specific case... if he has 250 jumps with tinted goggles and this TM, they obviously would not have presented any immediate concern prior to this incident.)

It's all fun and until someone loses an eye... then it's just a game to find the eye

[tdog 0]

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i am not sure what the packer did to create this but i told him that what he did made a knot on the riser. i was turning and i did not find out what he did exactly. i made sure one of the other packers showed him how to do it properly and moved on..

I am willing to bet you did it. Not the packer. You should have worked with a gear expert (like a rigger, manufacture, or heads up person about gear) to identify the CAUSE, not the EFFECT.

I can show you a few ways the SKYDIVER can knot a perfectly stowed toggle... Maybe the packer screwed up. Who knows at this point.

Sorry to be hard on ya.

[ladydyver 0]

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well i will try to answer as much as i can..

it was a day jump and i do wear the dark googles as it is bright but going to look at other options.

i could certainly look at a moveable ring sight which may have helped this problem. i do believe in the right sight to shoot really high quality work but acknoledge it has risks and hazards which i accept but should/could minimize.

i did check the pins and cypress and it did not have an rsl.. i just did not ask what the reserve was and i should have.

my line of thinking on the front risers was to try to generate some more lift with forward speed. i did do 2 hard 90's on fronts as a control check once i decided to land it above the hard deck. but as pointed out this was not a good idea. thanks for pointing out that it was not beneficial and i hope others (and i have) can learn if this happens to them. that is why i posted this.. good advice on not using the toggles as it may come off at any time.. i will grab rears next time.

Thanks for posting what had happened and your thought processes during the jump - it does help us all learn especially when there is some constructive debate about how things could have been handled better.

DPH # 2
"I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~
I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc!

[popsjumper 2]

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Do you set your brakes before coming off the landing area, or do you leave that for your packer to do?

I was taught to always set your brakes straight away when you land, so I've always done it that way. I'm not sure that I know all the reasons for doing so, but it does help avoid getting twists in your brake lines. It would also mean you have some idea that they were set properly and not with a knot.

I would recommend against "setting your brakes" in the landing field. Stowing the toggles, yes. Setting brakes, no.

Here's why:
1. While you are focused on setting brakes you're not going to see the student coming in to plow into you.
2. You get distracted and miss something...you got a problem on the next jump.
3. Setting brakes is part of the packing process. Do the entire packing process all at one time rather than some now and some later. Less chance of forgetting or missing something.

You want to set your brakes for the packer? Fine. Do it after you drop your canopy in the packing area.

Simple. Head on a swivel, stow your toggles and get out of the landing field before you get smacked or cause somebody else to get hurt trying to dodge you.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[skyshimas 0]

I never stow my toggles on the field either. I think it takes less time to walk to the packing area and take care of it there than play with it on the field more so when you have slider stowed behind your neck. And I feel it is safer this way also. It is only my preference!

[k_marr08 0]

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Thanks for posting what had happened and your thought processes during the jump - it does help us all learn especially when there is some constructive debate about how things could have been handled better.

What she said
This is an interesting discussion -- everyone makes mistakes and can either learn from them or not. seems to me you have an open mind for learning. Thanks for posting - I'll be thinking twice now before buying gear that may badly effect my view.

"I believe the risks I take are justified by the sheer love of the life I lead" - Charles Lindbergh