JohnMitchell 14 #26 April 1, 2008 Quote I wonder if there's any way to study this in the tunnel to do some real research on streamlined tracking. This would be helpful to put rest to all the debate about Atmo as well. What's the debate about? I'm not being sarcastic. I just wonder what others were saying about tracking, atmonauti, etc. It is a pretty well established principle that stability has a performance penalty. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #27 April 1, 2008 It is the best way. The only reason you are unswtable is cuase you are not used to that position. Any aerodynamicist will tell you that stability costs performance. ////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Yea but im not one of those so i couldnt tell him that, Im just a dumb redneck. Besides my explination is a whole lot easyer to read and understand.Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #28 April 1, 2008 Hay, just 'cause I went to college don't mean I ain't a redneck. Wanna hear mah coon dog holler? I think you were talking about arms and legs spread versus in tight, which I agree with you and your explanation. The issue I wanted to address was tracking with arch still in the torso. Definitely spilling air forward and to the sides that should be used for hauling ass . . . . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #29 April 1, 2008 A good flat track is not always the most steamlined body position. If I can fly flatter than you, I can stay in the air longer and out distance you even if my horizontal speed is not quite as fast. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #30 April 1, 2008 Quote A good flat track is not always the most steamlined body position. /////////////////////////////////////////// I have only seen faster trackers be more streamlined. But i can understand what you are saying. Maybe we will have to put it to a test jump next time i get down there Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #31 April 2, 2008 You bet! Got a coupla' "new"er jumpers who have been trying to beat me for a year. Hoop and Trent are always up for a good tracking competition dive too. Let's have some fun! Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #32 April 2, 2008 Bet they are. I was there last on a bad weather friday, so there wasnt any fun jumpers to speak of. You guys run a great DZ down there. Almost as good as our ( Skydive Dallas ) Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gemini 0 #33 April 2, 2008 I'll be in SDD on Saturday for the Henderson LO seminar. Flying up with three other jumpers. See you there. Blue skies, Jim Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #34 April 2, 2008 QuoteA good flat track is not always the most steamlined body position. If I can fly flatter than you, I can stay in the air longer and out distance you even if my horizontal speed is not quite as fast. I believe what you meant was ... if I can fly with a better glide ratio than you, than I can out distance you even if my horizontal speed is not quite as fast."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #35 April 2, 2008 QuoteI want to puke every time I hear that. If you have to pay their slot for them, they aren't your friend. If they want to make money skydiving, they should be an instructor, packer, rigger or vidiot. If they aren't good enough to do those things, they aren't good enough to charge people money to jump with them. I would rather do 50 jumps with "my friends" trying to figure something out before paying someones slot to "coach" me. I'm sorry, packerboy, but your attitude pises me off a little. MagicGuy did not say "USPA Coach Rating Holder", he said coach. There are a lot of people out there (Coach rating holders or not) who are highly qualified to teach someone skydiving techniques. Many do not hold USPA Instructor Ratings. And then you turn around and say that world champions are different. Hmm, what about national champions? How about world silver medalists? My point is that you do not have to hold a USPA Instructor's rating to be of coaching value. And I like how you listed packer as a skilled position. I appreciate packers and all, I use them all the time, but putting them over Coaches in the pecking order is a little self serving. I agree that it would be great if everyone just gave their time away for free, but this is the real world. I do free, fun, and educational jumps with newbies all the time. If someone wants me to spend significant time and energy teaching them something, I don't see what is wrong with them paying my slot. Paying $23 to be an air pylon is okay every now and again, but don't expect people to spend the whole day doing it. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #36 April 2, 2008 Cool hope i can make it.Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MagicGuy 0 #37 April 3, 2008 Thanks, DanG. I was kind of pissed by the attitude, too, but I didn't have the energy to write a decent response (as opposed to "fuck off") so I didn't bother Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packerboy 3 #38 April 3, 2008 Quote Quote I want to puke every time I hear that. If you have to pay their slot for them, they aren't your friend. If they want to make money skydiving, they should be an instructor, packer, rigger or vidiot. If they aren't good enough to do those things, they aren't good enough to charge people money to jump with them. I would rather do 50 jumps with "my friends" trying to figure something out before paying someones slot to "coach" me. I'm sorry, packerboy, but your attitude pises me off a little. MagicGuy did not say "USPA Coach Rating Holder", he said coach. There are a lot of people out there (Coach rating holders or not) who are highly qualified to teach someone skydiving techniques. Many do not hold USPA Instructor Ratings. And then you turn around and say that world champions are different. Hmm, what about national champions? How about world silver medalists? My point is that you do not have to hold a USPA Instructor's rating to be of coaching value. And I like how you listed packer as a skilled position. I appreciate packers and all, I use them all the time, but putting them over Coaches in the pecking order is a little self serving. I agree that it would be great if everyone just gave their time away for free, but this is the real world. I do free, fun, and educational jumps with newbies all the time. If someone wants me to spend significant time and energy teaching them something, I don't see what is wrong with them paying my slot. Paying $23 to be an air pylon is okay every now and again, but don't expect people to spend the whole day doing it. - Dan G If I organized some kind of "pecking order" I apologize.. that was not my intention. I simply listed packing as being a way to earn money and subsidize skydiving as opposed to coaching. I just simply do not agree with paying for someones slot so that they can give you a pointer or two. As far as the world champion/ national / silver medalist thing. Again, I probably did not come across as intended. I also agree that the line can be fuzzy here; but there is a difference between someone who has thousands of jumps and has made it their career "read: career, not part-time job" to be someone who can vastly improve someone elses skills by having elite knowledge of the sport and the physics driving it and charges a fee for a structured educational experience, and someone who has 200 jumps and a coach rating and wants a free ride to altitude. I'm talking about people like Scott Miller, Kate Cooper, Guy Wright etc... It is of my opinion that you as a "student" to this coach are already paying them a far larger fee than a jump ticket towards their experience level of being an educator and bringing them closer to the skill level of instructor. In a perfect world, that coach would come looking for students to jump with THEM, so that they could improve THEIR skills and move on towards being an instructor and getting paid to jump. This "coaching" jump benefits the coach on a professional and financial (in the long run) level as much as it does the student. Perhaps I simply don't understand because I jump only for fun, and not to compete, and I can't comprehend paying someone to be my friend. And perhaps it is because I come from a place where if I want help with something I simply ask for it and world and national champions are more than happy to pay their own slot to go up and teach me. If they are good enough they don't have to be a "in air pylon" all day... just once or twice. And if they are passionate about teaching skydiving, they will have fun doing it. I'm not saying it doesn't take skill to get a coach rating with 200 jumps either, I just don't think it takes enough skill to warrant a free ride. And I understand packers are at the bottom of the pecking order better than most. ;) Not for good reason either IMO. I am (was, I guess) a packer.. you must be a coach?? -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #39 April 3, 2008 Sorry for the thread hijack, but I feel I should respond. I am a coach. I don't do it as a living, just a part-time, fun thing for the weekends. I could make a lot more money doing video, but I prefer to coach if there is work available. I'd gladly do it for free, but I really don't like paying for it unless the person is actually my friend. I have yet to ask for a slot from a friend, but if it is offered I will sometimes take it. And I don't know where the idea that all coaches have 200 jumps and can barely keep themselves stable comes from. I have almost 1700 jumps. I got my Skydive U BBF rating (which I allowed to lapse) before the USPA rating even existed. I'm pretty good at staying stable, I only find myself spinning on my back once or twice a jump. I also have run a few tunnel camps for beginning belly fliers, so I think I can offer more than a pointer or two. I'd be willing to bet there are a lot more people like me out there than you think. Anyway, If someone wants to learn to improve their track, I'll gladly work with them for free on the ground, and even go up and do a 2-way tracking dive so they can practice. In fact I've done just that more than once. I will not, however, make five jumps over the course of the day with that person and do pre-briefs and de-briefs for each one unless I'm at least getting my slot covered. Call me selfish, but there are things I want to work on too, and right now flat tracking isn't one of them. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
packerboy 3 #40 April 3, 2008 Fair enough I guess we agree to disagree on this issue. My advice to the OP would be to find someone that would do it for free. Find a friend. Don't waste your money paying a slot for someone to teach you how to track. You don't have to. DanG I apologize if I offended.. wasn't my intention. We live in different worlds I think. Cheers. -------------------------------------------------- In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #41 April 3, 2008 I killed two birds with one stone. When I was doing H&Ps to practice canopy control skills there were helpful individuals that worked with me on my tracking skills by teaching me basic body positions on the ground and then watching me get out at 5K and track until 3K. Just an idea ..."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #42 April 3, 2008 So that gives you 2,000 feet to track. Only a thousand feet to track at terminal and off the hill. You have to flare out of your track to get a text book deployment, so less then 1000 feet to track at terminal really. You deploy at 3,000 and you get a open canopy by? Then you have to stop working on your canopy drills shortly after and get into the pattern. Call me crazy but that doesn't strike me as the most efficient way to utilize a jump ticket. "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #43 April 3, 2008 Quote So that gives you 2,000 feet to track. Only a thousand feet to track at terminal and off the hill. You have to flare out of your track to get a text book deployment, so less then 1000 feet to track at terminal really. You deploy at 3,000 and you get a open canopy by? Then you have to stop working on your canopy drills shortly after and get into the pattern. Call me crazy but that doesn't strike me as the most efficient way to utilize a jump ticket. I won't call you crazy. Did I get a lot of anything? No. Did I get a little of everything? Yes. The jumps were fun and cheap (and the instruction was free). I'll be doing plenty more this year ... PS: I love the visuals below 5K."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #44 April 3, 2008 QuoteYou have to flare out of your track to get a text book deployment, Why do so many people say this? Speaking from a fair bit of personal experience, I get lovely openings straight from a full track.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #45 April 3, 2008 Maybe it is canopy dependent, or maybe because a lot of people tend to dive instead of flat track? You're waving off between that track and dump right? "The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,259 #46 April 4, 2008 >>Maybe it is canopy dependent. I've got a Sabre1.>>or maybe because a lot of people tend to dive instead of flat track? I was thinking it might be that. >>You're waving off between that track and dump right? Not in the context of a 5k H+P Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #47 April 4, 2008 I also don't flare out of my track before deploying. Then again, I have a Spectre."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MagicGuy 0 #48 April 4, 2008 Spectres can slam you just like any other canopy can! I never 'fully' flare out of a track, but I do wave off before I pull, which seems to slow my speed down enough where I still get long, on heading openings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Butters 0 #49 April 4, 2008 Quote Spectres can slam you just like any other canopy can! Been there, done that. However, compared to the Sabre 1 I was jumping, the Spectre has been very forgiving so far."That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
