Whats the differance between God and a Tandem Instructor...

[slotperfect 7]

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I don't give my passenger an altimeter so maybe I'm neglecting them in not teaching altitiude awareness. But then neither do any other drogue throwers I know.

Most TIs I know don't bother with an altimeter. I do . . . it takes very little effort for me to provide them with one and show them how to use it. 99% of them never look at it, but it is there as a backup if mine craps out.

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As for allowing a passenger to have access to your deployment handles....madness. Only my hands go anywhere near my handles.

I treat all of my deployment handles as if the student has "access" to them. Riding the front on a Sigma, on most TIs I can reach each of the 5 handles. That means a freaked out student *could* pull any of my handles at any time. I stay alert of where the student's hands are so I don't get any unexpected surprises.

Arrive Safely

John

[Rover 9]

If providing the passenger with a handle (and thus an active role in saving his own ass) is "madness" then I can't imagine what you think of AFF... arguably the best, most effective way to teach skydiving. Why is it madness? what are you afraid of? the guy dumping at 12000'? so what?

You betcha. I jump near the a rather large body of water called the Pacific Ocean. Wind is also a feature here. If the main was out at 12 grand there's a good chance that I and my passenger would become fishfood.
I agree with you. AFF is an effective way to teach skydiving. The student has his / her own rig, extensive training, 2 instructors and therefore become partially the masters / mistresses of their own destinys. Lets keep it that way.
I do tandems and introduce people to the world of skydiving. If they wish to continue, I refer them to my skilled AFF instructor colleagues.

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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I jump near the a rather large body of water called the Pacific Ocean. Wind is also a feature here. If the main was out at 12 grand there's a good chance that I and my passenger would become fishfood.

Ah... I hadn't thought of that, and can appreciate the need for unique protocols in unique circumstances. Certainly *most* DZ's do not have this particular concern, and thus a 12-grand deployment would simply be an inconvenience.

However, I would be remiss if I didn't note that placing a DZ/landing area so close to the ocean that being pushed backward into the water following an unintentional high deployment is a real concern seems a rather poor display of risk management. It really doesn't take that much distance... a mile or so maybe, assuming adequate spotting skills and monitoring of the uppers, to reduce this risk near zero while still providing spectacular under-canopy views. If it's close to the ocean so you can put "beautiful beach landings" in your marketing brocure, well... words aren't really adequate to describe my opinions on how bad of an idea that is.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[danielcroft 2]

My wife and I did our first tandem back in '05. Our instructors asked us if we wanted to pull/learn/etc. I said yes, my wife said no. She started skydiving the following year (it was November in New York so bloody cold) I didn't start till last year. The reason we went skydiving was because my wife always wanted to try it (apparently, it was news to me!).

I feel like the use of tandem progression is vastly underestimated by lots of people. I personally felt that I learned a lot through my IAF program that I would have been expected to do by myself in the AFF program. Specifically, landing a canopy on your first skydive is left up to the student in AFF. Most people are injured (except last year) under a canopy. Having a very experienced person to show and then assist was an excellent opportunity to develop an understanding of the dynamics and learn.

Being a student, I get to sit around *a lot* waiting for the weather to clear and can get what I think is a good impression of the different people that come through our DZ for tandem jumps. In my experience, most people come for a thrill ride. They come because they wanted to try it once. Yeah, maybe if you trained some of these people as though they were wanting a license they'd be back but I know that I was asked before the jump if I was interested in that or not and said yes. I was given the opportunity to pull but failed (thick gloves thanks to the cold) but I did get to learn some turns in FF and "helped" (I'm sure I did nothing) with flaring.

Some people seem to see this as an either or scenario when it's actually many shades of gray. Having been part of and watched the tandem program at our DZ, not only would I say I was given every opportunity to learn but plenty of people choose not to be challenged and may object if that was forced on them IMO.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Danielcroft,

Sounds like you're at a great DZ that used tandem the way it was meant to be used... that's a good thing.

I will always think AFF is the superior option for those few who come in knowing they want to pursue a license. Most future jumpers are more like you though... they come for a carnival ride and get hooked, and quality tandem instruction (or lack thereof) is what determines how many of you come back a 2nd time.

I agree that some do not wish to be challenged, and that's really ok with me... however, they should be given the option. Asking "do you want to pull" as your instructors did is an excellent way to do this. If the student says no, no big deal. But at least they were given the option. Much better IMO than not offering, or worse, (yes I've seen it) the student asking if they can pull and being told "no". And they should be given an altimeter regardless... noone's going to force them to look at it.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[airtwardo 6]

You betcha. I jump near the a rather large body of water called the Pacific Ocean. Wind is also a feature here. If the main was out at 12 grand there's a good chance that I and my passenger would become fishfood.

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UMM...Water Gear ?

Doesn't weigh much, and Hell...what are the odds...I mean really?


& - BTW...'wind is also a feature', covers pretty much everywhere.


If THAT'S your argument for not teaching handles. . . pretty weak dOOd~

I would hope I'd never hear a Professional Skydiving Instructor, attempt to justify a possible burn-out, laziness or lack of commitment, on some local protocol!?

(some of us 'been Uptown * & * Downtown' and we know good food from bad.)

If what you see your rating and your expertise's value as . . . some piece of trash paper, easily available to any ...and qualifies 'em as only a chucker & a meat slinger...

~~Then you're not giving yourself enough credit for what you're accomplished !

You take part in what has to be without question, THE MOST EXTREME SPORT, any 'semi-intelligent species' ever conceived of.
~much less, you're makin' a buck from it.

You do something that VERY FEW in all of mankind can do, and you went on to become so skilled & so proficient...your Peers and your Elders turned you loose on the unknowing planet~
...TO TEACH!

Ya made yer bones...you wouldn't be snappin' hooks if ya didn't 'have it'...

The deal is...
we NEED you to not only be professional & 'safe'...
(talk about a relative term)

~ We need you to be an ambassador to the general public.
It's in the SIM, or maybe was it the Instructors Handbook....go ahead, look it up!

Make us all look smart, make us look thoroughly competent and dedicated.

Ya already walk the walk...now just TALK the TALK!

~Show 'em how it works, telling 'em what they're missing!


You got the smarts and the physical skills, as well as the PERFECT opportunity, to CHANGE the sport in a real & positive manner.

One of those sides of beef you're lettin' get past ya could be the next world champion, or maybe the next Steve Snyder or Bill Booth.



If you get paid, you're a PROFESSIONAL, if ya got the rating... You're an INSTRUCTOR.



So...do 'THE JOB' you set out to do~ teach, enlighten, motivate!



Skills come faster these days...

Younger guys are teaching harder stuff earlier in their 'career' then ever...and making some money doing it!
Maybe that's why what was sort of an unspoken rule years back...that when you made the leap up from a skydiving participant, to an Instructor

....when you go PROFESSIONAL....ya just 'knew'

Ya gotta give lots BACK to the sport...& it's gotta be the BEST ya have because it's not ABOUT you...it's about THE SPORT


(And yeah, I know... the student doesn't failed to learn, it's the teacher who fails to teach, & if the current batch doesn't do it the way we were taught, we can blame only ourselves I guess...I know I was way too busy slingin' to take the time to show fresh "I's"' 'everything')






















...on the other hand:

~ if some kid ends up as Shark Shit because of something "I" convinced him to do, won't I feel like a Dick!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[flipper 0]

We do what the customer wants ... if they want to learn ... we teach ...if they want a carnival ride ... then thats what they get

I treat the tandem as an introduction to the sport ... my goal is to get them back on the ground in the same way they arrived at the DZ ... the next is for them to learn / have a good time I then do my best to get them to go the AFF / Raps route

[jimmytavino 16]

the difference?????

simple...
" God doesn't Pack !!!......
jmy

[bclark 0]

Well spoken Twardo.

[Sletzer 3]

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We do what the customer wants ... if they want to learn ... we teach ...if they want a carnival ride ... then thats what they get

I treat the tandem as an introduction to the sport ... my goal is to get them back on the ground in the same way they arrived at the DZ ... the next is for them to learn / have a good time I then do my best to get them to go the AFF / Raps route

I really like what you guys are saying about simply asking the customer if they want to participate and learn, or not. That should help to seperate the carnival riders from the potential students.

One funny thing I've noticed in my short carreer is that our dedicated AFF I's that also do tandems when we get busy almost always give the customer the chance to pull. I guess they're more comfortable with letting the new person have some responsibility, and in their own ability to react to a potential problem.

A buddy went tandem with two different instructors about a month apart, and he felt much more safe around the guy that let him pull and walked him through it a bit more (the AFFI).

As far as letting them flare, I'm glad you guys are the TI's and not me, that shit would scare me to death!

Btw, my first skydive was a tandem. The TI didn't teach me shit except to arch, and to play with the toggles up high. Still, I always wanted to jump again- it just took my father wanting to do an AFF jump to get me motivated to go back. After that, I was hooked. Now I've spent the majority of my $$ & time in the last 7 months skydiving.

Did the lack of participation in the tandem dissuade me from jumping again? No, I jump all the time now. Did the tandem jump "fun ride" put the burning desire to jump in my soul? Not really. But still, it was a good into to the sport.

I wish the TI would have given me the chance to do more on the jump (aka deploy), and hell, I don't even know if I would have asked to do it. But it would have been nice to have the option.

As a newbie, I still think tandems are a valuable service, and can lead people into the sport. Give them a chance to set their learning level, why not? I would respect any TI's opinion about how to conduct a jump. Just please don't stifle someone's desire to learn.

Anyway, cheers for doing what you do guys!

I will be kissing hands and shaking babies all afternoon. Thanks for all your support! *bows*

SCS #8251

[DeepC 0]

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We do what the customer wants ... if they want to learn ... we teach ...if they want a carnival ride ... then thats what they get

As a student I rather like this approach. I don't understand why people don't like the carniaval ride aspect.

I never did a tandem; I went straight into AFF. That's what I wanted to do. My wife went to my AFF 1, and has watched my videos. She decided she would like to try a tandem.

She wants the experience of jumping out of a plane, without the responsibilities. She would prefer to trust an expert skydiving instructor with pulling at the right altitude, flying a proper landing pattern, and landing safely.

So maybe that is a carnival ride, but what's wrong with that? The instructor gets paid to do something he loves doing. The DZ gets paid. And the student gets a great experience with the relative safety of an expert flying the rig. Everybody wins.

If you have the money you can now buy: a passenger ride in a racecar, a fighter jet, and a trip into space. I think that's great--people can now experience things that we used to only be able to dream of.

[airtwardo 6]

I don't understand why people don't like the carnival ride aspect.

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Mainly because it's not a carnival ride.

If it were, we could easily do with the above mentioned 'remote control monkey'...but we all know it's a reasonably serious matter every time you leave an aircraft in flight.

The recent Colorado tandem fatality illustrates the nature of the consequences when everything isn't 100%, and even when it IS, sometimes shit happens...it's no Disneyland.

We're doing ourselves a disservice by not trying to exploit every 'student / passenger' to the fullest extent by at least giving the most basic and rudimentary information and 'skill' tasks to perform.

It simply amazes me to see at some of the T-mills...Tandem Students waiting around 1/2 the day bored stiff, watching the up jumpers with shy intimidation until a TM rushes over and pulls them off a bench only to be quickly dressed and off to the plane...just another face in the crowd.

Tell me we haven't turned into such a bunch of cheap hookers that we can't even 'fake' a little interest and conversation...just smile at the camera and give me your money isn't a very good way to get any repeat customers.

It's really not THAT much more effort to take a few minutes and generate some further interest, spark some thought of continuing with a training program...MOTIVATE someone right in front of you that has already shown at least 'some' interest in the sport.

As a business dealing in extreme sports...you can't have it any better than to have 'leads' show up ready and willing to spend money for adventure.

Take the quick buck and yes, short term the turbines keep turning, but we also need to build our membership back up...in numbers is strength and growth.

We need to look down the road and use the opportunities now, to make 'tomorrow' better for all of us.

Just look at how the tandem industry itself has changed skydiving in the last 15 years, better planes, better facilities, more positive exposure....on & on.

It we'd added another 5-10,000 members to our ranks there's no telling how much, even BETTER things could be.

Carnival ride...no way, it's an introduction to a possible new world for someone.

Compare it to those Dual flight instruction introductory rides you see advertised everywhere if you will...wouldn't be many private pilots out there if all the CFI did was take ya up for a spin through the pattern and show you to the parking lot.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[DeepC 0]

I understand and respect what you're saying. As mentioned before I am a student and can in no way know what the viewpoint of an instructor is.

As far as: waiting half a day bored and being treated like a piece of meat--of course no-one would like that. Unfortunately this is a common customer service problem we face at many businesses we go to every day. And no I wouldn't be a repeat customer if treated that way.

I was only trying to say that there are a lot of people like my wife who only want to do it once--just to do it. For them it is like a carnival ride. They want to experience exit and freefall once in their lifetime period. They do not want the awesome responsibility of being in control of that jump and keeping themeselves alive and un-injured. I have had the great fortune to operate a small aircraft at altitude, but I never would have wanted to try to land it without proper training. Some people don't want the training--they just want the ride.

I actually wish I had done a tandem first. I Chose AFF Level 1 because I wanted to deploy for myself and fly my own canopy. But I never got to enjoy the experience. I was so busy on every AFF jump making sure I accomplished my objectives and passed that I never got to experience freefall. By the time I was able to make my first solo--it was too late. I finally got to just enjoy freefall, but the newness was gone. Ultimately I kind of feel like I missed out on something that tandem would have given me.

[danielcroft 2]

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Most future jumpers are more like you though... they come for a carnival ride and get hooked...

Not disagreeing with the general commentary, just pointing out that I wasn't there for a carnival ride. I was there to challenge my fear of falling. That's part of the reason I came back. :) I never really had any desire to skydive, it was my wife who wanted to try it.

My DZ really is a cool place (except the turbulence can wreak havoc on innocent unsuspecting students who don't get to jump very much but at least we don't get hurt either!) but they're also making a good chunk of change from tandems. I really don't see anything wrong with that. It's been mentioned several times but I agree that people should be given the choice and I was.

[squarecanopy 0]

A Tandem Instructor can't strike you dead with a lightning bolt at will....

Just burning a hole in the sky.....

[viridian 0]

Hah, I've been lurking here for a while but this compelled me to post. bclark was actually my tandem instructor on both tandems, and I appreciate the effort he put into teaching me a multitude of things on those two jumps. Like it was said earlier, a good tandem instructor really can boost your confidence in yourself for AFF. In regards to blind adrenaline love, monkeys, AADs, and remote controllers, I've done a few AFFs with a couple instructors now, and he did a great job in retrospect.

[MattMazzocco 0]

I can relate to this one. When i did my first tandem it was at a small time dz with a 182 and one hell of a bitch (DZO) to deal with. The TI i went with had just had a cutaway on his prior jump and you could tell he was shooken up. He wouldnt let me do anything but arch. Wouldnt even let me fly up high. I almost didnt return to skydive because i left feeling that it wasnt all that great... the falling was fun but everything else was just blah.

When i went to my home dz they allowed us to fly, didnt really offer the option to pull, but by my 4th tandem the TI told me we were gonna work on aff stuff. Did some turns, got to fly, had an awesome ride, even got to land, and because of it i went through the aff program. I agree that the tandem students should not be in total control of landing because thats just plain dangerous.

I think back and realize i almost stayed at whuffo status... god, what i would have missed out on.

I think the option should be provided to everyone. It may help someone who thinks they CAN skydive realize its not for them.

I went for the ride not knowing what to expect. If i had been able to participate more I would have been hooked sooner.

Either way, this sport is supposed to be fun. Make it fun give the tandems the ability to learn, its not hard you ask a simple question and EARN your $$$ if they do want to learn. Remember, you used to be that student.

[GreyLake 0]

I like this thread.

It's unfortunate that some people are just there for a "ride." I do not call these people students. By the same token, a drogue chucker does merely that, and so may be called that.

On the other hand, we do have genuine students (i.e., people who want to learn and know) who are most certainly better motivated, encouraged, and satisfied by genuine Tandem Instructors.

Seems to me that a Tandem Instructor has more to offer to any of his "passengers," whether they be students or people just there for the ride.

It's silly for us to generalize one way or another. The sport might be all the better (if somewhat poorer) if we had only the latter types, but we do not. That's people for you.

Let's go to candy mountain.

[strop45 0]

Yip, I was one of those people who went along for my first tandem for a ride. Didn't get to flare, steer, read my own altimeter etc etc.

The majority of the tandem passengers/students at my DZ are early 20s tourists from overseas. They come to NZ for a holiday and travel around the country in bus loads. They skydive, bungy jump, white water raft, fly in Pitts specials, walk in the outdoors, drink too much and party hard.

And yes, their skydive is a carnival ride and they enjoy it.

If my first tandem had involved lots of training, then I'm sure that I would not have enjoyed it as much. There was plenty to see/feel and experience without worrying about doing anything.

And finally to those who think that a skydive isn't a carnival ride because of the risk and danger, try guessing which of the above activities kill the most young tourists here in NZ.

That's right, its white water rafting followed closely by walking in the outdoors.


Blue Skies
Wayne

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[skydance1954 0]

Properly trimmed and prepared, a tandem instructor could feed a family of four for several days.

Mike Ashley
D-18460
Canadian A-666

[mnealtx 0]

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Properly trimmed and prepared, a tandem instructor could feed a family of four for several days.

"And in the unlikely event of a water landing, your tandem instructor can be used as a flotation cushion...."

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[RedSyphon 0]

I usually don't bother posting on the forums and was going to chuck this thread up as being just another person trying to get reactions out of people by posting something they knew would "stir" opinions. With that said I couldn't help but keep this thread in my head while working tonight so I guess I'll bite as well...

The one thing I haven't heard mentioned, and forgive me if I've missed it, is the dangers of thinking that a Passenger is along for just a carnival ride.

I'm NOT an instructor and still a new jumper so take my opinion how you will but from reading the original post it sounds to me like you don't really enjoy the Tandems. Understandable after doing it all day but bigger yet from further comments it sounds as though some TIs have made the experience, from their end, just another daily schedule of events leading up to, during, and post jump phases. This is what bugs me to an extent.

If a person is simply repeating checks, training, etc, all day and not really processing the activity then isn't this as unsafe as say letting a "Punter" control the dive? Sure you can check everything but it's processing the check that matters. You checked your pin but what position was it in? Was the closing loop frayed, etc...

What I like about having more interaction from the student side, or any side, is that it forces all parties to be that much aware. If your explaining all your procedures to a student while doing them your forced to process them. Not only that people around you tend to unconsciously tune in. Now if you said something stupid or completely wrong someone somewhere would think "WTF!?" and hopefully correct it. :)

This also helps your tandems feel more at ease as they understand what's happening when you let them fly for a bit, or show them how the chute is thrown. When your student is more relaxed they have more fun and the more relaxed they are the safer the dive is, etc.

All my rambling above amounts to is it might be better to re-think the approach of tandem interaction during the dive not in a "how it helps me" but "how it helps them help you". After all you're representing the sport and we all know even if they don't take it up. As long as they spread a good word about it then that helps just as much!

_________________________
{S}{H}{O}{R}{T}{B}{U}{S} \__
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=--{O}------------------{O}---] D.S.#111 VSCR # 123

[GreyLake 0]

I never felt (or feel) like any of the tandems I did (or do now when helping others get their ratings) were mere rides. I learned (and continue to learn) with every jump.

I think that, since even before I made my first jump, I've respected skydiving, if that makes sense, as something greater than I can ever know completely. I think that keeps me pretty humble.

That, and I'm still starry-eyed in love with it. Skydiving and I are BFF n Evur!

There are some tandem students, whether they jump once or twice or go on to become skydivers, who, because they've learned something and enjoyed themselves, have both gotten something from and even given something back to the sport.

Then there are licensed skydivers who still manage, even with good numbers of jumps, to be "tourists"--in this case people who reap the rewards of skydiving without respecting it, or caring to know much about it.

But I've found a good number of people, I think, who genuinely love skydiving. So far there are enough to keep it rich. For me, at any rate.

Let's go to candy mountain.