How low is too dangerous to turn?

[parachuteman 0]

Thanks for looking.

[ast4711 0]

how fast ist too fast to drive???

I heard about someone who drove > 1000 km/h and survived. Is it safe??

There is no answer to your question, it all depends...

alex

--
www.tandemmaster.net
www.skydivegear.de

[feuergnom 22]

depends on the turn - do a search for billvons check-list on flat and flare-turns

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[popsjumper 2]

8.475 feet. Thanks for asking.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Depends on the turn,the canopy and the pilot. In general terms, if you can't get the canopy back over your head and land without breaking yourself it was too low.

I think you should give us a scenario to go along with this question.

[AndyMan 7]

At a thousand feet, less than 360 degrees.

At 500 feet, less than 180 degrees.

At 300 feet, less than 90 degrees.

As you get really close to landing, 10 degree turns or less to avoid obstacles only.

The nutshell here is that you should do turns as required to setup for your landing pattern, which starts at 1000 feet. Once you're in your pattern, you fly that pattern all the way to final, at which point you can make small corrections (10 degree turns) as required.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[yeyo 1]

Depends on what kind of turn, what type of canopy and the wingloading....

I can do slow 180 frontriser turn from 300' and still have altitude for a little of double fronts before leveling out. And I can do a 90 flat turn from around 40'. I fly a 7cell loaded at 1.3
However, a friend of mine needs a 1000' to do a 270 safely. He flies a small swooping thing heavily loaded.

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[darkwing 4]

For people that know what they are doing zero height is OK. Many people carve a turn while landing.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[VideoFly 0]

Another perspective on this question is concerned with others in the landing pattern next to, behind, below, and/or above you. Safe turning levels should also be regulated according to the expectations and experience of others in a landing pattern. Just because a canopy or a pilot can safely make low turns does not eliminate risk to that flyer and to others. Part of your answer is hinged upon the fact that we typically share our air space with others and in that case, safe turning practices in a pattern must not only be based on what that pilot can and wants to do, but must also be viewed as a vital link in a complex chain of events involving others in the air and on the ground. All to often, people push the limits of their canopies and experience levels at the expense of others. Sometimes, this type of behavior manifests itself in disruptive, hazardous, and possibly tragic conditions. It’s not always about "what can I do", but instead, it’s "what should I do".

[gearless_chris 1]

I made a 90 at 500 feet that was too low. I've done "S" turns at less than 5 feet that were just fine. Make sure you let the rest of the load know if you're going to do something stupid, and look before you turn.

"If it wasn't easy stupid people couldn't do it", Duane.

My momma said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up, so I became an a$$hole.

[Andy9o8 0]

Interesting how you've got 10 different answers, and they're all correct.

Read; learn; stay safe.

[The_Don 0]

Quote

Another perspective on this question is concerned with others in the landing pattern next to, behind, below, and/or above you. Safe turning levels should also be regulated according to the expectations and experience of others in a landing pattern. Just because a canopy or a pilot can safely make low turns does not eliminate risk to that flyer and to others. Part of your answer is hinged upon the fact that we typically share our air space with others and in that case, safe turning practices in a pattern must not only be based on what that pilot can and wants to do, but must also be viewed as a vital link in a complex chain of events involving others in the air and on the ground. All to often, people push the limits of their canopies and experience levels at the expense of others. Sometimes, this type of behavior manifests itself in disruptive, hazardous, and possibly tragic conditions. It’s not always about "what can I do", but instead, it’s "what should I do".

Great post & well put.

I am NOT being loud.
I'm being enthusiastic!

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

At a thousand feet, less than 360 degrees.

At 500 feet, less than 180 degrees.

At 300 feet, less than 90 degrees.

As you get really close to landing, 10 degree turns or less to avoid obstacles only.

The nutshell here is that you should do turns as required to setup for your landing pattern, which starts at 1000 feet. Once you're in your pattern, you fly that pattern all the way to final, at which point you can make small corrections (10 degree turns) as required.

_Am

You may want to re-think that bit about doing 180s at 500 ft. As you indicate, you are in a landing pattern at that point...doing 180s in a landing pattern is a no-no.

I know of two AFFI instructors that tell students that 500 ft bit. (one claims that it is in the SIM but makes excuses about having no time when I tell him to show me) They (the AFFIs) just do NOT get it that 180s in a landing pattern is potential for pain for students (and experienced ones, too). Logic doesn't get through to them...I think ego is involved. Dumbasses. Anticipating the bozo AFFIs, I tell my FJC students to just smile and say OK and then limit themselves to no more than 90 degree half turns under 1000 ft. The students understand it, the AFFIs don't. Go figure.

You may also want to specify that "small corrections" means nothing more radical than a half turn or a braked turn. Students have no idea what "small" means unless you specify.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[tdog 0]

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Dumbasses. Anticipating the bozo AFFIs

I am one of them.

I do teach my students "what turns are allowed", per the 1000 ft, 500 ft, 100 ft chart you claim is only used by dumbasses.

This is right after I teach them a real nice landing pattern with the proper 90s.

I teach the context in which it is used....

The context is that - sometimes landing patterns go bad when obstacles and poor decision making is made, and student's need tools to fix it. Or they have a sudden off landing surprise and they need tools to do a plan B.

The context is NOT how to fly the ideal pattern.

I am going to consider "nothing more than 90s once you are in your pattern" - however I kind of like the gradual decrease in the chart - as it reinforces to a student that turns need to get more gradual lower you get...

[AndyMan 7]

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Dumbasses. Anticipating the bozo AFFIs...

I too am one of the bozo AFFI's.

You are correct though, the recommendation is not in the SIM. It's in the IRM.

When was the last time you jumped a typical student main, like a large lightly loaded Navigator? I did recently, and I was really amazed at how they performed. Burying a toggle and doing a complete 360 rotation netted a total altitude loss of only 300 feet. Don't take my word for it, go borrow some DZ student gear, take a digital altimeter and measure for yourself.

Interestingly, while doing a 180 toggle whip at 500 feet on my highly loaded elliptical is definitely not recommended, it's also pretty safe. 500 feet will plane out pretty high. 300 feet, not so much.

The question posed in this thread is simple: How low is too dangerous to turn? Such a simple question deserves a simple answer. Any question that only says "it depends" does a disservice to the student since it doesn't give them any guidelines. The question "how low is too dangerous' I infer to mean: How low can I turn in an emergency and still get away with it? The altitudes and degree turns I posted answer that question adequately.

Of course we teach to fly a proper pattern, we teach proper pattern entry points, and we drill into the students that they need to be ahead of their turns so that they don't have to turn low. We also show video (from Aerohio) that shows a low turn done badly. We do go over a flat turns, but I don't expect anyone to remember that part.

Ultimately, I'm not really sure what your point is. The altitudes and degrees I posted are safe under a lightly loaded Navigator, and under a highly loaded elliptical. Your advice to define exactly what I mean by "small corrections" is good - that's why I specifically mentioned "no more than 10 degrees".

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.