npgraphicdesign 2 #1 September 22, 2008 My initial thought was "(leans out the airplane door) Oh hey, I SPOT the airport..there it is!" I know that's not it now, and I did receive an explanation from my instructor yesterday, but it hasn't sunk in yet. Can anyone offer some additional explanations? I know we'll go over it next weekend for my D/E/F jumps, but I would like to be more prepared. Yes I have a SIM but sometimes a personally-worded explanation works a lot better, rather then printed text with pictures. I speak from experience, as I teach full-time in a university... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #2 September 22, 2008 Technically speaking.... THE SPOT.... is different EVERY day, and in fact can be different on every jump.....( depending on just how PRECISE we want to be...) You , with the help of others here, can now figure THAT one out...have at it. jimmy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
madhatter 0 #3 September 22, 2008 Typically you want to get out of the plane upwind of the dz, spotting so everyone on the load will drift back to a opening position which will still allow them to make it back to the dz safely. That's about as basic as I can get A VERY MERRY UNBIRTHDAY TO YOU!!! D.S # 125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
npgraphicdesign 2 #4 September 22, 2008 Quote Technically speaking.... THE SPOT.... is different EVERY day, and in fact can be different on every jump.....( depending on just how PRECISE we want to be...) You , with the help of others here, can now figure THAT one out...have at it. jimmy Wait...are you the jimmy at the dropzone where i jump in CT, or you just happen to be another guy named jimmy on this board? And yes, I get your point...I'll have at it as soon as I get in the sky next time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Broke 0 #5 September 22, 2008 The great thing about our highly steerable ram air parachutes is that it gives us a larger margin of error when we spot. This season you have a great tool to learn how to spot. jumping out of a 206 and a 182 helps you learn to spot much better than jumping at a larger turbine DZ. Picture where you want to set up your pattern, note the dirrection of where the winds aloft are supposed to be coming out of and then have at it. Getting caught downwind of the dropzone really sucks.Divot your source for all things Hillbilly. Anvil Brother 84 SCR 14192 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydave114 0 #6 September 22, 2008 make sure you are looking straight down. use the horizon as your reference, not the aircraft. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
npgraphicdesign 2 #7 September 22, 2008 Quote The great thing about our highly steerable ram air parachutes is that it gives us a larger margin of error when we spot. This season you have a great tool to learn how to spot. jumping out of a 206 and a 182 helps you learn to spot much better than jumping at a larger turbine DZ. Picture where you want to set up your pattern, note the dirrection of where the winds aloft are supposed to be coming out of and then have at it. Getting caught downwind of the dropzone really sucks. Yea I know... At least I landed...right? And wait...who are you? I spy the CPI logo in your av... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #8 September 22, 2008 Quote My initial thought was "(leans out the airplane door) Oh hey, I SPOT the airport..there it is!" I know that's not it now, and I did receive an explanation from my instructor yesterday, but it hasn't sunk in yet. Can anyone offer some additional explanations? I know we'll go over it next weekend for my D/E/F jumps, but I would like to be more prepared. Yes I have a SIM but sometimes a personally-worded explanation works a lot better, rather then printed text with pictures. I speak from experience, as I teach full-time in a university... Spotting .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #9 September 22, 2008 There are several 'spots'. First, the place in the sky, both altitude and distance from your landing target where you want your parachtue open so that a unmodified round parachute with the same average decent rate as your ramair would land on the target. (Note: The target is NOT the airport! It's at least as small as the pea gravel pit but for accuracy competitors it's 5cm in diameter! Use the point where you want to land.) So, you have to know how high you intend on opening to know the where the spot is. And then you have to know how long your parachute takes to open. So, you know the 'spot' to have your parachute open is 440 yds south at 3000'. You may need to pull at 4000' over that 'spot'. Now how do you get to that spot in freefall? First, you have the throw of the airplane to consider. IF the ground speed of the airplane is high, i.e. no upper head wind, the throw will be farther than if there is high upper wind and the airplane is moving slowly across the ground (or even backing up!) Then you have to consider what you are doing in freefall. If your doing RW and falling relatively straight down you have to consider freefall drift. If your flying a wing suit you have to consider have more controll over your ground flight path but have to consider you planned pattern. So, now you've corrected for drift under canopy, throw from the airplane, and freefall drift to get an 'exit point or spot'. You know where you want to open and where to leave the airplane to get there. But, when do you start climbing out? If your solo and diving out the door you can leave at your exit spot. If your hanging 10 people outside a King Air 200 you mave have to start the climb out 30 seconds earlier. And this time also relates to your ground speed so changes with the upper head wind. So now we have opening, exit, and climb out spots. The one that you control is climb out. You may affect opening by flying in freefall to the spot or changing your opening altitude. To do all of this you need to know where over the ground you are. To do that you need to look straight down. This is a skill in itself. You have to have be able to see straight down first so your head needs to be outside the airplane. At least for awhile to see the flight path. Then you might look sideways to just judge progress along the flight path. You need to judge the ground speed of the airplane. Are you moving fast or slow along the ground. I was on a demo once into a high school where the first three jumpers got out of the 182. I got up to the door, looked out, turned to the pilot and said 'I'll wait'. I exited about a minute later. (we all made it but I didn't have to hold the whole time) And you need to judge the path of the airplane over the ground. This may or may not be the way the plane is pointed. So you need to watch the path along the ground. Then give the appropriate corrections to the pilot to get them to your climb out point. None of this has to be done with the airplane heading into the wind directly over the landing target. It's easier that way but all you have to do is take everything into account to get to your opening point. Down wind, cross wind doesn't matter. Now, if your spotting for multiple groups, even 4 groups of one in a 182, you need to take an 'average' spot. The first group should be early, the last group last, so nobody is hosed. Spotting a 182 for 4 solos in low wind I routinely get out down wind of the target. Sometimes you or the DZ may choose to do a cross wind jump run over the exit spot so that all the groups are spread out along a line perpindicular to the wind direction. If I'm spotting a 182 you'll routinely see me watching the path of the airplane versus the way its pointing and it's ground speed on the way to altitude in order to judge wind speed and direction and you'll see me checking the ground speed when the door is open in order to adjust the climb out spot. So what does all this get you? Being able to jump a round parachute for the first time in 20 years and land in the pea gravel pit from 5000' and 1/2 mile out. And knowing when the sky god on the DZ can't even get out on the right side of the airport.This is what you learn when your jumping military surplus round parachutes or jumpmastering for students jumping the same. You spotted to live. Just being on the proper side of the airport, or even just somewhere over the airport, wasn't good enough. What do you need to do these days with ramair parachutes? Besides whatch the lights controlled by the pilot with GPS. Know the general winds, know how long it will take to exit, know how fast the plane is flying moving over the ground on jump run, and looking straight down. The rest is gravy. Unfortunately many new jumpers never learn how to spot. Starting to jumpmaster static line students with round canopies when you have 50 or 60 jumps and doing it for 15 years helps. If your on a small plane volunteer to spot. And ask for help if you need it. Take the time to try to lean how. That enough words for you? I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
npgraphicdesign 2 #10 September 22, 2008 Quote That enough words for you? I bet you have all that saved in a text document somewhere so you don't have to type it over and over every time a skydiving noob asks a question like this. Yes it's actually very helpful. I still need to read it over a few times and understand it, but it's a great start. Thanks T! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #11 September 22, 2008 Actually I don't have it saved. But I'd better. I'll have to reread it sometime to see what I screwed up. I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
danielcroft 2 #12 September 22, 2008 At our DZ they post winds aloft at 12k, 9k, 6k and 3k as well as the direction of the wind. We calculate the approximate spot from that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TFFTM 1 #13 September 22, 2008 We always spot for gear. If cut-away gear can make it back so should a jumper under canopy. BSBD Home of the Alabama Gang Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SansSuit 1 #14 September 23, 2008 The spot is only important if you care where you land. Peace, -Jeff.Peace, -Dawson. http://www.SansSuit.com The Society for the Advancement of Naked Skydiving Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
npgraphicdesign 2 #15 September 23, 2008 Quote We always spot for gear. If cut-away gear can make it back so should a jumper under canopy. That was almost funny. Keep trying... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #16 September 23, 2008 Quote Quote We always spot for gear. If cut-away gear can make it back so should a jumper under canopy. That was almost funny. Keep trying... That wasn't a joke. I always spot for the freebag and main to land on target. If so, then everyone can certainly fly their canopies to the DZ. I learned to spot jumping a round parachute. You either spotted well or took long hikes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 3 #17 September 23, 2008 QuoteBesides whatch the lights controlled by the pilot with GPS. Know the general winds, know how long it will take to exit, know how fast the plane is flying moving over the ground on jump run, and looking straight down. The rest is gravy. Unfortunately many new jumpers never learn how to spot. FWIW, don't trust the GPS. In Nagambie, pilot switched it early, nearly ended up in water. At our DZ, newbie pilot missed it by nearly a mile on multiple occasions. _Always_ look before climbing out, particularly if you happen to be the first person going... Spotting is an art. Fortunately, there are a lot of old-time round jumpers that can teach you a lot about getting to where you want to go. Sad that so many folks trust the lights/GPS only. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #18 September 23, 2008 I'll second everything DSE said. Red light - open the door and look where the hell you are. Green light - look again before you climb out. More than one occasion it's been... "Green light? Hey! Mr. Pilot! Take us back to Deland. This is Orlando!" (names changed to protect the stoopid) Other occasions... "Green light! GO! GO!GO!... Now what the hell is that below me and where is that freakin' LZ?" One famous occasion (GPS driven)... "Green light? WTF? Mr. Pilot do a go-around. We're 3 miles off. OK. Second Green light...Mr. Pilot we're here. Give us the Green! Where's the Green? OK, do a go-around. Now we're 3 miles off again. OK. Third Green light...Screw this. Hey man we've got miles of green pastures. Wanna go anyway?? Sure! OK. Climbout!" Just a word...don't do this when you have a dumbass instructor with a student behind you. You gotta warn him...he just may blindly bail out right behind you.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #19 September 23, 2008 If I EVER implied I trusted the pilot and his GPS to spot for me I didn't intend to. Or maybe it was a generic response. Not only do you have to check the spot but you have to look for aircraft. In fact, if I'm in a position to I'm usually scanning for aircraft the entire ride up. But what's worse than relying on GPS? Relying on someone on the ground to spot the aircraft. First WFFC we landed all over that county! I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyblu3 0 #20 September 23, 2008 You don't know how to spot until you can trust yourself to spot for this jump: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP7FgvLpX8I Lol Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
madhatter 0 #21 September 23, 2008 Quote You don't know how to spot until you can trust yourself to spot for this jump: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP7FgvLpX8I Lol A VERY MERRY UNBIRTHDAY TO YOU!!! D.S # 125 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
npgraphicdesign 2 #22 September 23, 2008 Quote You don't know how to spot until you can trust yourself to spot for this jump: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP7FgvLpX8I Lol Ho....ly.....sh......!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeregrineFalcon 0 #23 September 23, 2008 Quote Quote You don't know how to spot until you can trust yourself to spot for this jump: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP7FgvLpX8I Lol Ho....ly.....sh......!!! That video kicked ass. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 8 #24 September 24, 2008 Zig's Random Thoughts on Spotting: 1) Spotting is a thankless job. 2) Spotting is a "lost art" at most DZs now-a-days. 2a) When the GPS goes out, never trust anyone under 30 that says, "Yeah, I'll spot". 3) The 45deg Rule does not work. 3a) The only way the 45deg Rule "sort of" works "sometimes" is by "luck" as is following group(s) pause in the door just long enough watching the leading group fall away from the aircraft and try to decide, usually by committee, whether or not "that's 45deg yet" before they climb out and start their exit count. 4) No one will ever thank you for the 100s or 1000s of "good spots" you may do, but they'll be up your ass definitely after every "bad spot". 5) The louder and longer someone bitches at you over a bad spot you called is inversely proportional to their willingness and skill at spotting themselves. 6) Green Light DOES NOT always mean GO! 7) If everyone makes it back, even just barely, it wasn't a bad spot! 8) If its only one group exiting, no matter how big or small, and the guy who spotted makes it back, it wasn't a bad spot! 9) If the S&TA and DZO, with students, follow you out of the airplane after you spotted, through some industrial haze, and land out with you, it wasn't a bad... err... never mind. 10) If you're trying to give corrections and the pilot just starts kicking the tail of the airplane around, you'd might be better off just hitting the cut button and getting out. Its not going to get any better and being called to the front of the plane is really embarrassing. 11) Calling a "go around" for "traffic" that happens to be a train passing by on the railroad tracks a few miles off the DZ may be funny, but will likely get you called to the front of the plane for a "talkin' to". 12) Committee Spots SUCK! 13) GPS tells you exactly where you are. Unless you know how to then use that information, along with other information (i.e. winds, ground speed, heading, #'s of groups, etc.), it doesn't do JACK SH*T about where you want to be! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #25 September 24, 2008 Quote Quote Quote We always spot for gear. If cut-away gear can make it back so should a jumper under canopy. That was almost funny. Keep trying... That wasn't a joke. I always spot for the freebag and main to land on target. If so, then everyone can certainly fly their canopies to the DZ. I learned to spot jumping a round parachute. You either spotted well or took long hikes. Yep, not a joke. If you are ever after me on a load you better check the spot because I am damn sure spotting for my free bag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
