What to do

[GeorgeOrwell 0]

ok everyone please stop the flaming on others and the dealer That is why I have not listed him I don't want this to be bad press for the dealer. I just want to do what is in my rights as I said before I will return the gear to the store if that is what my lawyer says to do(or the FBI) But it seems to me that if I do what the gear store wants I lose a main a reserve and a cypress(and left with a container only lets me do one more jump lol all I want is to jump have fun drink beer around a fire and some day jump with my kids)

Blue Skies to all
Eric Blair

-------------------------------------------------- If your not jumping your not living
LEARN TO LIVE (L2L)

[BUBLHED 0]

I'm saving for new gear now myself, but if it comes to it I'll pitch in.

If the gear store did file a claim and except payment they will have to reimburse there ins company for moneys paid out or otherwise the gear belongs to the ins. company.
Unfortunatly you are in possesion of stolen property and I don't think you have a leg to stand on. Most likely again the ins. company owns the gear and hopefully someone will take your situation into consideration as to what happens to it.

ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!!

[ozzy13 0]

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Just wondering...you gotta valid bill of sale right?

It would not matter if he did or not. The goods are stolen so no piece of paper would change that. The only thing that will help is him not being accused of being the original thief.

Thats like saying I go and steal a car and sell it to you with a bill of sale. The car it still stolen and would get returned to its original owner and you would have to sew me to get your money back.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[skyjumpenfool 2]

This is a clear case of credit card fraud. Offer to help the dealer recover his losses by supplying him with info and receipts, etc. Any information you give him should help him out. However, this dealer put you in the middle by not doing his homework before he accepted a bad credit card. He not only dropped the ball on his responsibilities in this transaction, he’s now trying to hold you responsible for his lack of good sense.

I know GeorgeOrwell (Eric) personally and I can tell you all, in good faith, he's an honest person who will do the right thing. I hope this dealer does the right thing and goes after the credit card user and not Eric.

There are some lawyers (jumpers) out there… What should he do? Common, a little free advice to help out a jumper???

And Eric... No Way are you not jumpen anymore!

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[likestojump 3]

it doesn't matter who Eric is, or how he got the gear. If it has been reported stolen (which it has) - he can be the nicest guy ever, but he is still in possession of stolen property. At least that's how I understand it. The person who he bought it from, even if paid for in in good faith, never had the title to the gear as the original owner (gear shop) has never passed it on due to it being a fraudulent sale.

Of course a legal professional should be the only person whose advice should be listened to.

[taylor.freefall 0]

Worse case scenario you end up gearless. An absolute bummer, and yes, people who steal should be shot.
Although in the great scheme of things you can recover from this. If it goes that way put it down to bad experience and just try and save up bit by bit to replace it eventually. Try not to lose sleep over it though.
(Having said that you might be able to keep it??).

[skyjumpenfool 2]

Have you tried working out a deal with the dealer? Maybe offer to split the difference with him. Agree to send him a small payment each month until you're square. Seems to me this would be a Win Win situation.

Then, let us know who this dealer is and what a nice guy he is to do business with. I'm buying new gear this year... should I buy from him or avoid him?

Enquiring skydivers want to know!

As far as helping you out, you know I'll chip in...
where do I send the check? Livieri

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Have you tried working out a deal with the dealer? Maybe offer to split the difference with him. Agree to send him a small payment each month until you're square. Seems to me this would be a Win Win situation.

What???
This guy already paid $4100 for the gear that he did not know was stolen.
And you think he ought to pay more money to keep it?
And it is not exactly clear what the culpability of the retailer is or whether the retailer has written this off on previous year's taxes already.
I don't follow the logic???

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[markovwgti 0]

SO if the stuff was bought with a stolen credit card then the store should have gotten their money back from the credit card company...they might be making money twice...once from the guy who bought it...and when you return the items to them they can resell it again!

Keep it until the FBI comes to your house!

[Scrumpot 1]

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SO if the stuff was bought with a stolen credit card then the store should have gotten their money back from the credit card company...

The way I've read this - the original merchant selling this gear when it was new - FAILED TO FOLLOW APPROPRIATE ESTABLISHED PROCEDURES BEFORE SHIPPING THE GEAR, and only found out that the card was either "bogus" or stolen AFTER having shipped the equipment out their doors.

Chances are as a result - that they did not get ANY recompense from the credit card company, because THEY (the merchant/gear dealer) was in violation of their cardmerchants terms, and therefore have / had NO CLAIM.

Does this mean that the merchant only now deserves to be recompensed, from an entirely non-culpable (or party to the original transaction) subsequent buyer? I dunno - and I'm not even entering THAT debate/touching that one with a 10 foot pole!

If the current buyer is/was culpable in ANY way (sounds like he did all his "due diligence"), then that would be a much different, and clear cut story.

Even ("legitimately") 'Receiving Stolen Goods/Property' in of itself is, in MANY states - a criminally prosecutable offense. I would consult with an attorney. Not the vast (and widely to be EXPECTED to be varying) merely (uninformed as to all the FACTS - incluiding myself/my own) opinions of the interwebs.

You may in fact be LEGALLY obligated to return the goods. Then again - you may not. I dunno. None of us here, without all the full FACTS could possibly know, and taking your direction or advice from ANY of us (again - INCLUDING ME) under such circumstance, is probably not such a good idea.

Seek valid, FULLY informed, appropriate counsel and advice on this. $4k is not (to any of us I don't think) just a trivial matter. Hopefully, an equitable solution - both for and to all involved, can be found.

coitus non circum - Moab Stone

[riggerpaul 1]

(I am in agreement with Jan here. I only replied to her post because it was the last on in the thread.)

I don't believe that this gear meets most states' legal definition of "stolen".

I believe you will find that the legal definition of theft/stolen is that the property was taken without the knowledge or approval of the rightful owner.

That's not what happened here. The rightful owner willingly shipped that gear. It was not, technically, stolen.

While it is true that the rightful owner was defrauded, I don't believe that the current owner can be accused of receiving stolen property.

At least, that's my understanding of how things work here in California.

Don't take my word for it - talk to a lawyer in your state.

As someone else said, and as I believe, most states will not call this theft. They will call it credit card fraud.

The distinction is important because stolen gear does not lose its stolen status just by being sold to another person. Receiving stolen property, even if you didn't steal it, means you will probably have to give it back, and be out your money.

But if the gear doesn't meet the legal definition of stolen, then the current owner is not under the onus of having received stolen property, and he should not be made to give up that which he has properly bought.

The owner who was defrauded should have pursued the matter with the proper authorities at the time of the original fraud. His right to do that now may also be affected by the state's statute of limitations.

But the fraud doesn't have anything to do with the current rightful owner.

As I said, ask a lawyer in your state.

[SStewart 13]

The card holder did not report the card stolen until after the charge had been made. Just imagine a whuffo getting hit with an unauthorized charge of over $5000 worth of skydiving gear. The gear was shipped after the charge was approved. Then the charges were reversed and the card holder was credited for the unauthorized charge. The dealer followed proper procedures.

So the cardholder is out nothing, the credit card company is out nothing, the dealer loses the gear and is never paid, and the thief gets away with the gear.

Now the thief sells it to someone else and it is discovered 4 years later when the cypres2 goes in for service.

SSK already returned the stolen cypres to the dealer. Eric should man up and send the rest back to the rightful owner as well.

It doesn't matter if he knew it was stolen or not, you can not keep stolen property regardless of how it came into your possession.

It is just unbelieveable that some people on this thread are suggesting that he should just keep the stolen equipment. What is he going to do with it? Keep jumping it even though he knows it is stolen? Sell it to someone else who will then be in possession of stolen property?

He needs to give it back, there is no other way.

[SStewart 13]

***I don't believe that this gear meets most states' legal definition of "stolen".***

So you are saying that merchandise purchased with a stolen credit card is not really stolen?

And if it is later sold to someone else they can just keep it?

Are you serious?

[BUBLHED 0]

Did the dealer file a claim with his insurance company? Did they write it of as a loss on there taxes?

If anything like that has happened then the dealer will have to undo the above if they get there gear back, or the gear belongs to whomever paid the claim. Once the dealer accepts a claim or takes a write off it is my understanding that they release there rights to the merchandise.

Then again I could be wrong.
Can't believe we dont have any lawyers on this forum that are willing to enlighten us to the basic laws in this situation.

It really sucks for both parties. I hope there is a good resolution to this for both.

ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!!

[riggerpaul 1]

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I don't believe that this gear meets most states' legal definition of "stolen".

So you are saying that merchandise purchased with a stolen credit card is not really stolen?

And if it is later sold to someone else they can just keep it?

Are you serious?

Yes, I am serious.

There is a legal distinction between "stolen", where someone breaks in and takes your property, and "fraud" where someone transacts business with you under false pretenses.

This distinction helps to protect both sellers and buyers in cases like this.

Check with a lawyer in your state.

You said

Quote

The card holder did not report the card stolen until after the charge had been made. Just imagine a whuffo getting hit with an unauthorized charge of over $5000 worth of skydiving gear. The gear was shipped after the charge was approved. Then the charges were reversed and the card holder was credited for the unauthorized charge. The dealer followed proper procedures.

So the cardholder is out nothing, the credit card company is out nothing, the dealer loses the gear and is never paid, and the thief gets away with the gear.

Part of the credit card company's service is assumption of certain risks when transactions are made in accordance with the rules set forth in their agreements with both cardholders and merchants.

If, as you said, the merchant met the responsibilities set forth in his agreement with the credit card company, then the credit card company is supposed to pay him even when the card is used fraudulently. That's part of why the merchant pays a fee to the credit card company. He pays to have the transaction secured. Once he has met the credit card company's requirements, he gets his money.

So you have made what I believe are two conflicting assertions. On the one hand, you say the merchant met his responsibilities to the credit card company, on the other hand you say that the merchant lost his money. I believe one or the other of these assertions is incorrect.

I suspect your assertion that the merchant fulfilled his requirements is not correct. For some time now it has been standard practice that mail order merchants must only ship to the address of record of the cardholder. I think it is unlikely that the fraudulent user of the card could have had the rig shipped to the real cardholder's address.

So, something in your version of the story doesn't ring true to me.

The credit card companies understand that they are providing an insurance service, and account for the occasional fraud with the fees that they charge their customers who are the card holders and the merchants.

Also, the OP said something about the original dealer not getting proper authorization for the transaction. If that's the case, then the original dealer is on his own with his liability. That's what he agreed to with the credit card company.

The original dealer was the victim of fraud, not the victim of theft.

Again, check with a lawyer in your state. I believe you will most likely learn that there is a legal definition for "stolen" that might not be what you think it is. Or check with your local police. Tell them that you gave something to someone and now he won't give it back. I believe they will tell you that the property was not stolen in the legal sense of the word, and that they cannot help you.

The distinction between stolen goods and credit card fraud provides protection for many innocent parties, both sellers and buyers.

You may want to lump all the different ways of getting stuff that isn't yours as "theft", but that's not necessarily how the law sees it.

[nomal2day 0]

It is unlikely that a dealer would not bother to follow up on a $5,000 loss for four years. It is likely that he would have claimed from, and been paid, either by the credit card company's insurance or his own insurance, or that the loss was written off and not physically incurred.

Threatening FBI action might not have been the most suitable approach, if the genuine intent was to seek an equitable resolution to the issue. All that has been achieved so far is to ensure that Eric does not have a Cypres when he skydives...

What about the original buyer who presented the stolen credit card? Was a concerted, aggressive effort made to track him down? Was the buyer sold a $5,000 rig without being asked for any form of identity, or providing SSN or address? Surely such verification would be sound business practice?

Assuming the gear is legally defined as stolen, which appears debatable, the rightful owner may well be some insurance company.

This is not a clearcut matter.

'To fly is heaven, to freefall is divine'

'You only need 2 tools. WD40 for when it doesn't move but should, and duct tape for when it moves but shouldn't'

[BUBLHED 0]

That's what I said in earlier post.
Now I'm asking SStewart to confirm what the dealer did to recover his loss. I'm also sure he did something other than just say oh well.

I would love for the dealer in question to post his side of the story on here. I believe that he was paid by the card company or the Insurance company and now is trying to double dip.

I also agree that this property may indeed not be defined as stolen goods.

Not trying to insult anyones integrity here, just stating my gut feeling.

ATTACK LIFE ! IT'S GOING TO KILL YOU ANYWAY!!!!

[SStewart 13]

Here is a copy of the email I received from the dealer posted with his permission;

"The gear was reported stolen and we checked the credit card and got the authorization to ship the gear.[We have all of the documents]
When we got charged back by the CC Company we tried to track down the receiver of the gear at the address we shipped to. We found out that the person we shipped to did not live at the apt complex and was waiting for the UPS truck to deliver the gear, he got the gear and disappeared.
We then notified SSK and USPA with the s/n of each stolen item. All of this took place nearly 4 years ago.

About 2 months ago we got a call from SSK that the Cypres II showed up for it's 4yr check. They had the records of our stolen gear report from 4 years ago. The Cypres was returned to us.

The rigger that had the stolen reserve told us that he wanted to buy the stolen gear but we told him to return it to us. He said he would do so the next day which would have been 21 Nov 2008. He didn't.
Now, 6 weeks later, he contends he doesn't know if it is stolen or not.

Eric, the purchaser of the stolen gear, also said he would get the Nitron main canopy back from the guy he traded it to for his Sabre II 150 and return it to us.

If I don't receive the rest of my stolen gear within ten days I am going to file a complaint about the possession of stolen gear transported across state lines and the original fraudulent use of a stolen credit card.

The gear was on a USPA stolen list at one time, just like the list at SSK.

We have all of the original invoices of our purchase from the manufacturer of the canopies, Precision and Aerodyne, and the Cypres II.

Possession of stolen property knowingly is a criminal act, a felony in this case. {ask any pawn shop}
Maybe a couple of people involved had better seek a criminal attorney?...Do ya think?

What's the Latin term for "let the buyer beware".......? Caveat Emptor?

What ever happened to the old days when a rigger found out that gear was stolen and would return it to the rightful owner without a bunch of excuses? I personally have recovered and returned a number of rigs to the owners when I found out they were stolen over the last 50 years I've been rigging.
I have seized gear on the spot from the person that had it a time or two.

Ethics must have changed!"

It seems pretty cut and dry to me. I do feel sorry for Eric, he did not know he was buying stolen equipment. But that doesn't mean he should keep it.
Unfortunately it sounds like he will spend more on an attourney than what the gear is now worth. If it were me I would just give it back, he has nothing to gain from keeping it and that gear will always have the stigma of being stolen.

[ghost47 18]

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So you are saying that merchandise purchased with a stolen credit card is not really stolen?

And if it is later sold to someone else they can just keep it?

Are you serious?

The law on this issue varies depending on the state, but there is a concept of bona fide or good faith purchaser (you can google it). I THINK it basically says that if an innocent person does what he reasonably should do but ends up buying property that the seller did not actually have title to, that innocent person's claim to the property is superior to the original owner's claim. However, this A) is from memory and B) would in any case be state-specific, so OP should consult a competent attorney from his jurisdiction who should, within an hour, be able to tell him the answer to his question of what his legal rights / duties are.

That's the law.

As to what SHOULD happen (as opposed to what the law says), my own opinion is that OP and the original owner should try to work something out, maybe split the difference. Situation sucks for both parties, but neither keeping it for free nor giving it back for free seems fair.

[likestojump 3]

very simply put - unless you have a JD and know the interstate commerce laws as well as the laws of the involved states and the UCC, you have no business advising Eric of proper course of action.

you advise him based on your personal convictions, and that's useless to someone who doesn't want to loose $4100 (minus container)

[likestojump 3]

PS rigging for 50 years ? Sounds like "Call Ralph" :)

[girthrockwel 0]

I wish someone would post the dealers name, or the dealer would post up. I want to make sure I don't ever buy gear that was ever connected to this guy for fear that due to his sloppy practices I might pay for gear that he lays claim to after four years.

[likestojump 3]

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I wish someone would post the dealers name, or the dealer would post up. I want to make sure I don't ever buy gear that was ever connected to this guy for fear that due to his sloppy practices I might pay for gear that he lays claim to after four years.

I am a bit taken back by responses such as yours.

We were not given enough facts to make a fair judgement. If the dealer in fact was taken advantage of, than it's just as reasonable of them to ask for the gear back, as it is of the person who paid $4100 for the said gear to be seeking legal advice and trying to not get screwed in the transaction.

What I mean is that this internet tar-n-feathering is no good for the seller OR the buyer. If most people on this site were dealers, the equivalent ruckus should cause a few to yell "I want ot know who this Eric person is so I never have to sell to him again and deal with his BS".

Like many others, I personally think this is just a bad situation for both parties. I cannot fault the dealer or the buyer.

but my money is on CallRalph being the dealer :)

[ozzy13 0]

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I wish someone would post the dealers name, or the dealer would post up. I want to make sure I don't ever buy gear that was ever connected to this guy for fear that due to his sloppy practices I might pay for gear that he lays claim to after four years.

Thats a little affair statement if you ask me. I dont know what Eric should do. Hes cough between a rock and a hard place. But to say you would not buy from this dealer because he got robbed and now knows where the gear is, is just dumb!!

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[girthrockwel 0]

I guess my point didn't get conveyed very well. The more I read the post the more I'm thinking how I would feel if I were Eric. The seller definitely got screwed but It's not Eric's fault. I don't have alot of money and if I lost my rig it would end my skydiving days. Hell I'm trying to scrape together money to buy my first rig and am not even close. Companies assume risk when they go into business. My wife is a business manager at a company that distributes industrial equipment. She said they got taken with a bad CC last week and will have to absorb the cost. I feel for the seller and would never advocate the sale of stolen gear. BUT, Eric did nothing wrong, he even stated that he checked the numbers to see if the gear was stolen. I'm sorry if my previous post was pointed but this issue hits home. If or when I'm able to buy a rig I plan on doing everything in my power to protect my investment.