What to do

[ozzy13 0]

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I was talking to another gear store about all this. He stated that its SSK policy, If gear is on a stolen list they automatically send the product to the Dealer. ( SSK didnt say this , A dealer I know said it) You also have to remember that SSK is in Germany not in the US so their laws are different then ours.

I find it funny that a lot of questions were answered here but one was not.

DID THE DEALER RECEIVE ANY COMBINATION ON HIS LOSSES???????

Edited for spelling

SSK is in LEBANON, OHIO, USA. AIRTEC is in Germany.

If the stolen gear lists had the information for the police, that's where SSK would contact.

Do you have a problem with the idea that involving the police in a theft?

Don't you think it would help to avoid fraud in the stolen gear lists themselves?

I dont have a problem with that at all. I think it would protect both parties.

In this case if the police were involved I think the the dealer would get the gear back and Im not sure if that would be right or wrong.

I wish the dealer in this case would work something out with the OPer . I mean its been four years. He had to get some money back from this I would think and it would be a get PR move if you ask me. But no one is asking me but you

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[riggerpaul 1]

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Ok thanks I thought they were in Germany. Sorry

No problem.

So, what do you think about insisting the police are involved and that they are the only contacts? If you don't like it, why?

[ozzy13 0]

look at post above yours.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[riggerpaul 1]

Okay, sorry. A case of posts passing like ships in the night.

[riggerpaul 1]

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I was talking to another gear store about all this. He stated that its SSK policy, If gear is on a stolen list they automatically send the product to the Dealer. ( SSK didnt say this , A dealer I know said it) You also have to remember that SSK is in Germany not in the US so their laws are different then ours.

I find it funny that a lot of questions were answered here but one was not.

DID THE DEALER RECEIVE ANY COMBINATION ON HIS LOSSES???????

Edited for spelling

SSK is in LEBANON, OHIO, USA. AIRTEC is in Germany.

If the stolen gear lists had the information for the police, that's where SSK would contact.

Do you have a problem with the idea that involving the police in a theft?

Don't you think it would help to avoid fraud in the stolen gear lists themselves?

I dont have a problem with that at all. I think it would protect both parties.

In this case if the police were involved I think the the dealer would get the gear back and Im not sure if that would be right or wrong.

I wish the dealer in this case would work something out with the OPer . I mean its been four years. He had to get some money back from this I would think and it would be a get PR move if you ask me. But no one is asking me but you

Actually, I think you might be surprised.

At least with the authorities involved, there is a chance that some adjudication of claims would occur.

In a case like this, I believe there would be consideration of the history of the property. If the claims were both found to have merit, then I expect the loss would be shared more equitably.

Questions like what compensation the original dealer might have received would certainly be asked and answered before final resolution is reached.

There's even a chance that the history could track back to the original perpetrator. That's certainly not going to happen unless the authorities are involved.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

O.K. Eric, it's now been one week since you posted this story. Have you had any contact with the dealer? Have they been willing to work out any kind of deal? Judging from the response of this post, "skydivers want to know"!
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Do not send this gear to the dealer until you're sure he is still the rightful owner! If he recieved any type of compensation from Visa, UPS, USPS, Insurance, ect. they would now be the rightful owners.
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I'm searching for new gear. Is this a dealer I should avoid? Or, is this dealer going to be my first phone call?
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One last point... Between the dealer, Eric, the guy Eric bought the rig from, cancelled checks, known delivery addresses, etc. I would think the authorities would be very interested in reviewing this case again. Whoever origianlly stole this gear is the asshole in all this! I hope the dealer does bring the FBI into this. Maybe they can identify this asshole and we can see to it he makes one last skydive.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[LyraM45 0]

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I have just been informed that the link was only added this morning so that is why you did not notice it before. They are working on it.

So in this case is appears that the Op did indeed perform his due diligence. Does this change your tune any in regards to his position? Are you still under the impression that he should be the sole party to incurr a loss?

What is your opinion on the issue that the dealer is only entitled to the recovery of the wholesale amount of the gear, minus the current value of the returned Cypres, minus the depreciation of the use before the OP came into possesion, minus any insurance monies collected by the dealer on this equipment, minus any tax advantage or write-off the dealer excerised as a result of the debt?

What dollar figure would that be? How much would it cost to allow the OP to keep the remainder of the gear (as the Cypres has been returned)?


You have expressed no shortage of 'ethical' outrage over the fact that this gear has not been boxed up and shipped right back. You do realize that this would result in a $4100 loss for the OP, and depending on the above factors, and whatever the dealer can sell the now used equipment for, a substantially smaller loss for the dealer. Does that sit right with you?

Isn't the OP, also a skydiver, just as much your 'brother' as the dealer in this case? Why should one suffer more of a loss than another?

In reality, the dealer, an established businessman with a credit card merchant account, made an error in his processing of the charge. The procedures and checks put in place by the credit card companies are there to limit this sort of thing. If the dealer had followed the proper procedures, the credit card company would have not have reversed the charge.

Conversely, the OP, who did check the incomplete USPA stolen gear list and found nothing, did not check with SSK. Doing so would revealed the stolen Cypres, and cast a negative shadow over the rest of the rig, and the deal itself.

The end result is errors on both ends. I, for one, would be more forgiving of errors in a deal with one private citizen making a purchase from another private citizen, as opposed to an established businessman conducting a transaction via a credit card merchnat account, but that's just me. Either way, I ask you to justify the OP taking all, or anymore than half, of the actual loss in this case (which is what would happen if he simply returned all the equipment)?

'NUFF SAID!! Very well put!

Apologies for the spelling (and grammar).... I got a B.S, not a B.A. :)

[LloydDobbler 2]

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You have mis-understood the post Dave, The USPA website was updated last summer (2008) at that time the stolen gear listed prior to 2007 was sent to the archives and a link to the archives was not established until a few days ago after I sent an inquiry to HQ. Prior to last summer the gear in question was in fact listed on the website and in Parachutist magazine.

Well, it's a good thing it's finally been updated, so 4 years from now when we have this situation again, the responsibility chain will be even more complex.

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As far as the rest of your post I have already stated that I feel sorry for situation he is in and it is really too bad that he did not run the serial numbers before making the purchase. However, in my opinion the only right thing to do at this point is to return the gear to it's rightful owner. His beef should be with the person he bought it from not the dealer who was robbed.

I really have nothing more to add, it's a bummer deal for everyone involved (well, except for the thief who so far has not been caught)

This is what gets me, Scott. You say you feel sorry for the situation this guy is in. You say that it's "a bummer deal for everyone involved." So tell me again why Eric is the one who should 'man up' and send the gear back, and be out his cost? That's actually not too much of a bummer deal for Ralph - who put together an ill-advised transaction, and who may or may not have written off the loss or filed an insurance claim for it by now.

I guess what's bugging me after reading through 5 pages of posts is this: a little empathy would go a long way. The tone of Eric's first post doesn't seem defiant - it seems like he's looking for a way to work this out. But everything that I've heard from Ralph, or his associates - be it you, Cynthia, or whomever - has been hard-line, 'my-way-or-the-highway'. That rubs me the wrong way.

Cynthia's post says "It's an unfortunate situation but the bottom line is the dealer was not paid for the gear & it's become stolen equipment." I don't see it that way - I see multiple 'bottom lines'. I see a gear dealer who made a sale under ridiculous pretenses. Who didn't cover his own ass. I also see a guy who bought gear without checking the S/N of EVERY piece of it. Who also didn't cover his own ass.

So why should guy number 2 be the only one left out in the cold?

Even if it holds up legally that Ralph is entitled to the gear, here's the big thing: I'm pretty much convinced I don't want to buy from Ralph, because I know that he's not willing to suffer a minor loss to win a customer who will sing his praises. It appears he's only looking out for his own interests, and really doesn't care about the guy who wound up on the wrong end of a bad situation. A situation that's supposedly "a bummer deal for everyone involved."

I wouldn't expect Ralph to give away his shirt over this...but if he at least had offered a compromise, I'd be better able to see things from his side. But sending a strongly-worded letter saying he's going to sic the FBI on this guy? Come ON. If he had come on here and said, "I've talked to Eric and we're going to split the cost of the canopies," he'd likely gain a few more customers on that gesture alone. Instead, this turns into a PR nightmare.

Like you said, it's a bummer deal for everyone involved. So why is the OP the only one who needs to 'man up' and 'do the right thing', again?


Note: Apologies for naming names here, but after someone from Eagle Creek posted with specific details, I think we all know who the dealer is in this situation. The OP even made it a point to not identify them - they identified themselves.

Signatures are the new black.

[dgskydive 0]

I guess this is just Karma coming back to Ralph, for all the "new" gear he has sold new jumpers over the years.

Threatening the FBI is so over the top it is laughable.

Like you said, if Ralph had followed the conditions of his merchant agreement, he would never be in this position.

Karma is a bitch.

Dom

[davelepka 4]

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for Ralph - who put together an ill-advised transaction, and who may or may not have written off the loss or filed an insurance claim for it by now.

What gets me about this is that if the dealer had acted properly with regards to the original transaction, he would have had some recourse in the matter, and recieved some sort of compensation.

If he did indeed use the proper procedures with regards to his merchant account, the credit card company would have absorbed the loss, and not reversed the charge.

If he had shipped the package signature required to an approved address, then UPS would be to blame for not delivering the package to an individual in the actual apartment. Handing the box to a guy standing outside the building, signature or no signature is a failure on their part, and not an action they could defend in court.

If he had adequate business insurance to cover his inventory, he would have had a clear case to file a claim, and be compensated for his loss (minus a deductible).

Any one of the above would have allowed the dealer to recover his loss, and I would fully expect that he would have without delay. That would leave his claim to the equipment today at zero.

If the dealer had none of those avenues available to him, it's the result of poor business practices, and I cannot see how he should not be expected to bear at least half of the loss in this case.

I hope the OP is reading this thread, and if he is I urge him to take a stand on these issues, and demand a full disclosure of every detail of the matter before making any decision. Investigate the dealers actions with regards to the original transaction, who was at fault to allow the fraud to take place, and any follow up actions the dealer took with regards to insurance or tax advantages. Use this information, along with the depreciation of the equipment you do have, minus the published value of the Cypres, and use that as the basis for any discussion of the current value of the equipment, who will end up with ownership of the equipment, and any financial transactions that take place with regards to the equipment.

In short, the answer to the question of 'What to do" - do your homework, find out the facts of the matter, and take a hard line stance on protecting your interests.

Some may say you failed to this in the first place by not making a thourough check of the stolen gear databases. Heed their advice, and protect the hell out of your interests this time around.

And then be sure to tell us all about it.

[upndownshop 0]

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I guess this is just Karma coming back to Ralph, for all the "new" gear he has sold new jumpers over the years.

Threatening the FBI is so over the top it is laughable.

Like you said, if Ralph had followed the conditions of his merchant agreement, he would never be in this position.

Karma is a bitch.

Wow! My eyes started hurting after a bit so I may be repeating someone here, but this is what came to mind for me 3 pages ago.

Ralph possibly made an error with the handling of the CC upfront. There are different procedures when verifying CC ownership face to face or over the phone. Of course the phone is more difficult and I can say that I bet it happens millions of times a year where a merchant just trusts the voice on the phone, usually if the billing zipcode is correct it will run. I know I have with 20 years in retail sales. Ralphs got 50 years and done it hundreds of times I'm sure..

With Ralphs years of success Im pretty sure the loss was written off in taxes by now. I know the "Dolphin - Tempo -ZP Main" set ups were very good to him.
I found myself selling those rigs for many of his customers 8 or 9 years ago.
Yes those days are gone and its different now. Times are tough and every potential customer counts.

I'd do what my daddy taught me:LOL Every problem is an opportunity, always.

The OP may quit skydiving without a rig, thats not good, while its not "ralphs problem" it hurts the industry that supports him. Its also the loss of potentially at least 2 customers hell never have. The OP may turn a friend on to jumping or talk another into buying gear if he is still in the sport.

So, Id let the rig go, keep him skydiving. Ask him not to go around telling everyone he was given a "free" rig, lets keep it our secret. Maybe discuss contacting me when he decides to sell it and consider giving me a chance to recover some of my loss thru a resale. Then Shake his hand and ask him to remember to "Pay it Skyward" when he gets the chance.

Dont know about ya'll but Id bet it would gain a life time customer and the best form of advertising money "cant buy", ....word of mouth!
Heck if I was the OP, I dont care if he told me not to tell anyone, he saved me the cost of another rig, donated to myself and the sport, thats news worthy and deserves a good word put in for him. It happens ya know.
Bet the OP's post would have been totaly different, and it might have helped a recent post that was not favorable marketing for a business.

But what do I know, I run a boogie and we know it dont make any money. While trying to open up a T shirt/ promotional products company in this industry? someone get a rope.
Find some middle grounds, keep jumpers jumping, let karma take its course and be happy.

And to the OP, dont spend much on an attorney unless its rock solid. otherwise let it go. Start saving what you can, come to Raeford in June and we will use the gear auction and fellow skydivers to get that gear replaced for you, I can almost gaurantee it.

[SStewart 13]

Well, DG I guess I have a different take on things.

I remember being a young jumper living in my car and being dead broke. I was a teenager eating top ramen and no place to sleep. I remember having two reserve rides on the same day because I was jumping shitty borrowed gear.

I also remember Ralph buying me a brand new rig even though I had no money. He let me pay him back and work it off. I packed a lot of parachutes, I jumpmastered loads of students, I cut wood, mowed the lawn, washed the airplanes...etc.

Ralph did that for a lot of young jumpers, People that would have never tasted the sky without his efforts.

I still don't get this "blame the victim" attitude

So if something is stolen from you it is all because of your "KARMA"

Give me a Break!

[Snowball 0]

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So, Id let the rig go, keep him skydiving. Ask him not to go around telling everyone he was given a "free" rig, lets keep it our secret.

WTF? What is this given a free rig crap? The guy paid $4100 for it??

[upndownshop 0]

Free is in quotes for a reason.
Sounds to me like he will be shopping for a rig either way. If Ralph lets it go, decides to be a "hero" and gives him the rig, then its free. Is it not? Doesnt matter if it is the exact same rig he paid for, if he loses it, he has replacement cost.

[riggerpaul 1]

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I still don't get this "blame the victim" attitude

Both parties are victims. Both thought they had done their due diligence. Neither had.

Let them share the loss.

Moving on...

I no longer care to argue about the rig being stolen or not.

SStewart. you win. The gear was stolen.

Can we now talk about something that might improve this sad situation?

Sstewart, what do you say to the idea that the police and courts should have been involved in the disposition of stolen property?

I proposed that the stolen gear lists should insist that the contact be the authorities, and that the person making the claim should not be mentioned at all. That way, the person who discovers the stolen property will contact the authorities and get instructions from them.

A theft involving thousands of dollars is grand theft, and should be handled through the police.

I believe that our stolen gear lists are an invitation for someone to commit his own fraud, especially if people just start sending allegedly stolen gear to the person who alleges the theft.

If the authorities are involved, there is an opportunity for equitable adjudication of conflicting claims. Things like who got insurance compensation would be asked and answered. And there's always a chance that the original perpetrator might get caught.

So, how do you feel about my proposal?

[riggerpaul 1]

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Well, DG I guess I have a different take on things.

I remember being a young jumper living in my car and being dead broke. I was a teenager eating top ramen and no place to sleep. I remember having two reserve rides on the same day because I was jumping shitty borrowed gear.

I also remember Ralph buying me a brand new rig even though I had no money. He let me pay him back and work it off. I packed a lot of parachutes, I jumpmastered loads of students, I cut wood, mowed the lawn, washed the airplanes...etc.

Ralph did that for a lot of young jumpers, People that would have never tasted the sky without his efforts.

I still don't get this "blame the victim" attitude

So if something is stolen from you it is all because of your "KARMA"

Give me a Break!

Just for the record, I'd like to mention that to the best of my recollection, ALL my rigs came from Ralph, except for my very first used rig that I bought from another jumper at my home dz of that time.

Ralph was always honest, and always delivered exactly as he said he would. As SStewart said, he gave me considerations I had not expected. I think Ralph is a fine fellow.

If you look though the archives for the user paulvfries, you'll find that I always supported Ralph when posters cast aspersions on his conduct.

I've bought containers and mains and reserves from Ralph over the years, and I've always been satisfied.

I am not one of the people picking on Ralph.

All I want is an EQUITABLE solution for both parties.

[Snowball 0]

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I still don't get this "blame the victim" attitude

Both parties are victims. Both thought they had done their due diligence. Neither had.

This is bull shit. Suppose some guy sold his grandfathres crap, becuase grandpa died, found in the attic 30 years after grandpa got it by stealing. Do you think the company it was stolen from deserves compensation?

[davelepka 4]

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I remember being a young jumper living in my car and being dead broke

I also remember Ralph buying me a brand new rig even though I had no money. He let me pay him back and work it off.

So clearly you have a previous relationship with one of the parties, do you think this helps or hinders your position as an impartial observer in this matter?

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I still don't get this "blame the victim" attitude

I don't think anyone is trying to put 100% of the blame on the dealer, just trying to establish the degree of responsibility he should take for his actions.

Let's keep in mind that we know for sure that your solution makes the OP a victim to the tune of $4100.

Seeing as errors were made on both sides, do you really think that is the fair solution? Thats why my suggestion is to calculate the actual loss on the part of the dealer, and take into account the $4100 the OP has spent, and come to a comprimise.

All of your talk about the 'good old days' when skydivers were 'stand up' guys seems to be disparaging the OP. What about the fact that he did stand up, in the most public forum the skydiving community has, and laid the whole situation out for all to see?

Your opinion on this has really taken a shot in the credibility department with the news that the dealer gave you a huge leg up when you were starting out. I applaud the guy for helping you out, but you have to admit that you might not be as impartial some because of this.

For the record, I do not know the OP, and have never done business, good or bad, with the dealer.

[riggerpaul 1]

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I still don't get this "blame the victim" attitude

Both parties are victims. Both thought they had done their due diligence. Neither had.

This is bull shit. Suppose some guy sold his grandfathres crap, becuase grandpa died, found in the attic 30 years after grandpa got it by stealing. Do you think the company it was stolen from deserves compensation?

The text you quoted only says 2 things.

Which part is bull shit?

That both parties are victims?

That both had failed their due diligence?

[riggerpaul 1]

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Suppose some guy sold his grandfathres crap, becuase grandpa died, found in the attic 30 years after grandpa got it by stealing. Do you think the company it was stolen from deserves compensation?

I'll counter your example with one of my own.

The Nazis stole all sort of property, gold, jewels, art, from the victims of the holocaust.

Sometimes some of it is found.

Should an effort be made to return it to someone who is determined to be a rightful owner?

I think it should.

[skyjumpenfool 2]

I think it’s clear we have two (probably more) victims here. I think we’re all pretty much in agreement that both of these victims are honest, stand up guys. I think it’s further agreed that both victims are a little bit at fault for this situation. However, I’d lay about 99% of the fault here onto the original scum bag, loser, ass wipe, puke bucket, piece of shit, thieving low life, who stole the gear from Ralph in the first place.

That all being said, I’d like to propose a solution to this situation…
Ralph… As stated earlier, I’ve been saving for a new rig. I’ll put that on hold for now. What I’d like to know is; how much will you sell me Erics AAD for?? I’m betting the local skydivers will help me pay for it through some sort of fundraiser like a poker tournament or maybe a beer bash. When we get that paid for, we start on the rest of the gear. I’d even bet Eric would be willing to make small monthly payments to Ralph for part of the gear. I know the DZ.com community would donate to the cause.

Ralph gets paid for his gear and turns this into Positive PR . Eric keeps jumping. Local skydivers spend some of their hard earned winter money to help out a friend and get a party in return. Readers of this forum get to put their money where their keyboards are. WIN…WIN…WIN
Who wants to chip in??

By the way, If the original pukebag thief is reading this, be scared-BE VERY SCARED! We're coming for you next. The whole statute of limitations thing will not help you.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[ozzy13 0]

Ill sent fifty bucks.

I don't think the Dealer( Don'T like naming names. They have yet to post) and the OP will both be careful the next time they do business. I don't think either should lose in this situation. Mistakes were made lets move past that.

Scott since you are doing the posting for the Dealer. Is it possible for you to find out how this can be resolved WITHOUT both parties losing out. A happy medium as they say. PM and if their is ill send my 50 in?

We are all skydivers and I don't think that anybody should get FUCKED any further in this situation.

Never give the gates up and always trust your rears!

[dgskydive 0]

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I still don't get this "blame the victim" attitude

He is not the only victim. In fact, I am willing to bet money that he did not follow proper business practice in this sale and has gotten insurance money for this already.

The OP in this thread is not a thief and should not be treated like one. The email that you posted shows that he is being thought of as one.

You tell me, if someone follows bad business practices and then claims insurance (not a fact, but prove me wrong), then DEMANDS that gear back from a totally different party, who is the thief?

As for your personal experience with the dealer. Sounds like he treated you well when you started, but I can tell you many stories of him..... lets just say, NOT treating customers well.

I worked for SQ1 for 3 years and had many, many phone calls from people that, didnt get what the paid for when dealing with the dealer in question in this thread.

I have personal friends that actually bought "new" gear from this dealer and when they had their riggers inspect the gear, they found out it was not new. I had a female friend of mine that never was able to get her money back, even after she returned the canopy.

Dom

[dgskydive 0]

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That all being said, I’d like to propose a solution to this situation…
Ralph… As stated earlier, I’ve been saving for a new rig. I’ll put that on hold for now. What I’d like to know is; how much will you sell me Erics AAD for?? I’m betting the local skydivers will help me pay for it through some sort of fundraiser like a poker tournament or maybe a beer bash. When we get that paid for, we start on the rest of the gear. I’d even bet Eric would be willing to make small monthly payments to Ralph for part of the gear. I know the DZ.com community would donate to the cause.

Ralph gets paid for his gear and turns this into Positive PR . Eric keeps jumping. Local skydivers spend some of their hard earned winter money to help out a friend and get a party in return. Readers of this forum get to put their money where their keyboards are. WIN…WIN…WIN

I think that the OP should find out first if Ralph was paid off by his insurance company. Although your idea is a very good one. My concern is that the dealer will get "paid" twice on this. Once from his insurance company and then again from good hearted jumpers helping out a skybrother.

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By the way, If the original pukebag thief is reading this, be scared-BE VERY SCARED! We're coming for you next. The whole statute of limitations thing will not help you.

Watch out Dirty Harry!!!

Dom

[Snowball 0]

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I worked for SQ1 for 3 years and had many, many phone calls from people that, didnt get what the paid for.

I thought this Ralph guy was the one that did not know how to check out customers. Now you UR saying SQ1 fucked people too. Who can we trust?