FrancoR 0 #1 February 22, 2009 Hello Everyone, i am looking for information on the Robinson R44 Helicopter. Anybody have any idea on: Time to Altitude? Tournaround time? How high will it climb, will it make it to 13000feet in a reasonable time? Are there any problems i should know before organizing a day of jumping from the R44? Thanks FrancoIf it does not cost anything you are the product. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #2 February 22, 2009 You won't want to be in it till 13k feet. Its rate of climb is over 1000 fpm at lower altitudes but it has a hover ceiling at under 6000 feet MSL. If you take it higher the chopper needs to maintain a lot more forward motion to keep in the air. Further its max ceiling is 14000 feet, You don't want to operate so close to its max ceiling either. The R44 is a nice platform for 3 jumpers to 4500-5500 feet at a near hover but if you are planning on much more then that you won't like the chopper (or any chopper if you want a hover). The Army uses its Blackhawk choppers for higher ops but they keep a lot of forward motion on those for the higher jumps. Look at operational costs also, chopper time is about double that of fixed wing so figure on jump tickets needing to be double or higher to pay the lease fee on it.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMK 3 #3 February 22, 2009 I’m also a private helicopter pilot and rated on the R44. US self-fly hire prices (wet) will be around USD 400/hr +pilot cost. Info on the the R44: http://www.robinsonheli.com/r44specs.htm As for out-of-ground hover (ie high hover), I doubt anyone really does a high hover for jump operations. It would not be the safest of ideas and burns fuel like crazy. For the heli jumps I’ve done they just slow down to no more than the limit of translational life which is around 20mph. For reference, the R44 uses about 15 gal/hr. As for altitude on jumps, I’ve jumped a Eurocopter AS350 (what’s commonly called Single Squirrel in Europe and an A-Star in the US). On these jumps in Switzerland we repeatedly went to 11,000 in quite turnarounds. One note though, the R44 can be flown with any or all doors removed, however as the tail rotor is on the left side, persons on that side should be extremely careful of anything going into the tail rotor (makes for bad day for all involved). For jumps out of Eurocopters, they exit only from one side generally which is not possible for all three jumpers from a R44. Why? French helicopters main rotors turn clockwise (which is the opposite direction of American helis) which means the tail rotor is on the right side and the same side as the pilot."Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrancoR 0 #4 February 22, 2009 Ok, sounds like if we would take a Robinson then it would be 5000feet and not much more. How long will it take to 5000feet? Takeoff elevation would allready be 1800ft. that probably makes 5000ft allready borderline. Is 5000ft even reasonable with this takeoff elevation? Fixed Wing aircraft is not going to be an option, it has to be a helicopter i am just trying to figure out if a Robinson will do or if we can take something like the AS350. I have jumped the AS350 and it was very fast at altitude and that is also the problem when we need to keep it flying.If it does not cost anything you are the product. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bfilarsky 0 #5 February 22, 2009 A helicopter is closer to 4 times the cost of an airplane than twice. An airplane that can hold 3 jumpers will run roughly $100/hr to operate - as mentioned, a helicopter will be more like $400. (Plus pilot for both) Out here at SDSD, we have helicopter jumps sometimes, and they are $85 a lift ticket to 5-6k from near sea level. While great for the occasional fun jump, I don't think they would make a practical regular jump aircraft. After the novelty wears off (and they are fun!), who the hell wants to pay $85 for such a low jump? I know I couldn't afford to go jump 5 times a day at that price! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #6 February 22, 2009 $85 is high as hell Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 262 #7 February 22, 2009 So you figure the R44 still is OK in mass and control characteristics for having 200 lbs move out to a skid and then drop off? Not knowing helos well, that's what I'd ask more about as one goes to lighter helicopters. The equivalent in normal helo ops would be dropping people off to the ground when hovering a couple feet above rough terrain. (Would it be worse in a hover than in good translational lift?) Maybe it's only at the level of very light 2 seaters that that kind of movement and then sudden loss of mass would start to be a serious CG and control issue? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #8 February 23, 2009 Many R-44s have been used for jump ops. Probably won't find someone to drop you out of an R22 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VideoFly 0 #9 February 23, 2009 I’ve jumped from the left front seat of an R44. The climb to 4,500 feet was fairly quick. The door opening with the door removed is a bit tight and you probably don’t want too much weight hanging out on the skid for too long. The dive out was good, but try to make sure your gear doesn’t get hung up on anything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
howardwhite 5 #10 February 23, 2009 This R-44 (or ones from the same company) has been used for jumping in Massachusetts several times. The DZ is 180 feet MSL. It was taking three jumpers to 5 grand for (I think) $65 or so. Turnaround time about ten minutes, IIRC. No one asked about going higher, but I guess it would cost a lot and take a lot longer. I was surprised to see that it was able to drop jumpers from a complete hover; didn't think it could hover that high with a load. HW Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
I3uller 0 #11 February 23, 2009 The capabilities of a helicopter vary wildly depending on air density, temperature, humidity, etc. Knowing DZ.com I know you guys would love to argue the specifics of it all forever haha. Personally I won't get in a Robbie anyways. It isn't going to be a big performer since its basically the Kia of the aviation world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
I3uller 0 #12 February 23, 2009 QuoteMany R-44s have been used for jump ops. Probably won't find someone to drop you out of an R22 I fly a Schweiser 300CBi (also a two seater piston engine helicopter like the 22) and so long as you didn't whack the controls on the way out and hung off the skids I wouldn't mind dropping someone. Practically its an awful idea using a 2 seater for a jump though haha Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #13 February 23, 2009 QuotePersonally I won't get in a Robbie anyways. +1 Look at their accident rates.....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
I3uller 0 #14 February 23, 2009 QuoteQuotePersonally I won't get in a Robbie anyways. +1 Look at their accident rates..... 27 percent of all Robinson's made have crashed haha. Granted the 44 is a little safer but its still a pile of junk. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voilsb 1 #15 February 23, 2009 They had an R44 at Skydive Houston all day today. They did 10 loads out of it, at $50/jump. We got 6,000 ft on my viso, and I think the bird's alti read slightly higher than that (6,250 I think). I can't comment for certain on forward speed, but it was low enough that I didn't notice it. Turnaround was about 15 minutes between loads, when they were back to back. The user ar5000 here organized it. If you shoot him a PM, I'm sure he can give you specifics. ETA: Here's a link to his thread on it: Helicopter Jumps near Houston Feb 21Brian Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #16 February 23, 2009 QuoteQuotePersonally I won't get in a Robbie anyways. +1 Look at their accident rates..... Yeah but they are used as trainers and they are cheap enough that people with more money then sense can buy them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #17 February 23, 2009 Wow tough crowd! The accident rate has gone way down (partially) because of special FAA mandated training required for anyone flying an R-22 (don't know if anything is required for the R-44). Most accidents were caused by pilot error... often because instructors were teaching students to hover at only a couple feet off the ground in case of an engine failure. Students would occasionally catch a skid and flip the thing over. Once flight schools started trusting the engines and their hovering autorotation training, they raised up hover training to more like 10 feet and the problems pretty much went away. You're still talking about a piston single... it won't have the accident rate of a twin turbine. But there's nothing unsafe about robinson helicopters. It's really unfair and uneducated (or outdated) to think that they are flying deathtraps. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #18 February 23, 2009 Ummm, I was defending the chopper. Anything used as a trainer or cheap enough to be entry level is going to have a higher incident rate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
I3uller 0 #19 February 23, 2009 QuoteWow tough crowd! The accident rate has gone way down (partially) because of special FAA mandated training required for anyone flying an R-22 (don't know if anything is required for the R-44). Most accidents were caused by pilot error... often because instructors were teaching students to hover at only a couple feet off the ground in case of an engine failure. Students would occasionally catch a skid and flip the thing over. Once flight schools started trusting the engines and their hovering autorotation training, they raised up hover training to more like 10 feet and the problems pretty much went away. You're still talking about a piston single... it won't have the accident rate of a twin turbine. But there's nothing unsafe about robinson helicopters. It's really unfair and uneducated (or outdated) to think that they are flying deathtraps. Dave Granted they are used as trainers but the Schweiser is also used frequently as a trainer and has nowhere near the accident rate. I mean if a helicopter has its own FAR and you have to get specialized training to fly it, that should say something about it right there. If you look in the POH for the R-22 it states that in order to correctly perform an autorotation the pilot has to initiate the sequence 1.1 seconds after engine failure. The rotor inertia is so low it makes auto rotations near impossible unless you know that its coming. I mean you get what you pay for. Cheap helicopter, cheap design, cheap construction. I've heard of several cases of the Lycoming engine still have tags inside of it when it was shipped. People finding parts of the tag in the oil pan and having to completely take down the engine. A friend of mine that is an FAA accident investigator is allowed and encouraged to get typed in as many types of aircraft as she can. In most cases the FAA will pay for her ratings in other aircraft as a sort of on the job training. However the FAA will not only not pay for her Robinson rating, but restricts her from flying them. Call me uneducated for thinking that its a flying deathtrap but I'm going to side with my instructor who is an FAA examiner/former cobra pilot that flew in Vietnam with more hours in a helicopter than anyone here when he said "Frank has become a very rich man selling those piles of shit." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #20 February 23, 2009 Well, since I work for the company that owns Schweizer, I'm good with that. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
I3uller 0 #21 February 23, 2009 Quote Well, since I work for the company that owns Schweizer, I'm good with that. Dave Lol perfect! I love the Schweizer. Great little heli. You chose well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
futuredivot 0 #22 February 23, 2009 Quote(don't know if anything is required for the R-44). An updated will?You are only as strong as the prey you devour Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #23 February 23, 2009 Quote Well, since I work for the company that owns Schweizer, I'm good with that. Dave Has anyone considered how many R22/R44 are there as compared to other manufacturers ? What is the rate of accidents rather than just the # ? This is like the argument that driving is more dangerous than skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
I3uller 0 #24 February 23, 2009 The number is regardless. 27 percent of all of them made have crashed. Their design is flawed. The 22's have no rotor inertia. Under stall conditions the main rotor is likely to cut the tail boom off. Lol the thing is just not safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMK 3 #25 February 23, 2009 I thought this was a skydiving forum? Let’s get back to jump talk; they debate this shit all day over on the PPrune forum for helicopter pilots. Believe it or not they are more pedantic than the crowd on this board. Lots of inaccuracies in the above heli-related info, but I can’t be bothered to type replies (one note, just because more Ford Mondeos crash than Lamborghinis, doesn’t mean for former is more dangerous) Robinson has now made more helicopters than all other manufacturers combined. Best global deal? Aerograd Russia with EUR12.00 lift tickets for jumps from a MI-8 helicopter."Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
