kallend 1,654 #26 May 1, 2005 QuoteQuoteI have never seen an FAA definiton that says skydivers are aircraft.Well that would depend on if a skydivier uses a parachute. If so, I would recommend that you look at Title 14 1.1 Deffinations: Aircraft means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air. That argument was used in a case involving base jumping at Lake Powell. The court ruled that parachutes are NOT aircraft, and it was upheld on appeal.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #27 May 1, 2005 ??? Why do you hate them? We operate from an airfield shared with sport planes, gliders, hang-gliders, para-gliders. We had no conflict so far. We use to check airspace on climbing. Ok. A C-206 is a small plane and we can have a good view with a plexi door. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #28 May 1, 2005 Quote??? Why do you hate them? it's one more thing that has a great potential to ruin my sky dive or take my life, or the glider pilot's life. what would have happened if this scenario would have caused someone to deploy early? QuoteWe operate from an airfield shared with sport planes, gliders, hang-gliders, para-gliders. that's good. as much as your DZ operates under these conditions, the more acclamated the sky divers are to this situation. i jump at a couple of DZ's that have the same aircraft flying as well. i guess i should say i don't hate them as much as it "complicates" sky dives, and it causes me to have an additional hazard to be aware of. QuoteWe had no conflict so far it's not a matter of "if" but "when" QuoteWe use to check airspace on climbing. Ok. A C-206 is a small plane and we can have a good view with a plexi door. exactly what do you mean when you say "We use to check airspace on climbing?" everyone should check for aircraft on the climb to altitude and check their spot, that didn't happen in this sky dive the .jpeg image comes from. i understand where your coming from. sky divers need to be aware that you can do everything right and still die. doesn't matter whose fault it is, if it results in an injury/death. Take Care, Be Safe.-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #29 May 1, 2005 Quoteit's one more thing that has a great potential to ruin my sky dive or take my life, or the glider pilot's life. what would have happened if this scenario would have caused someone to deploy early? VFR rulez . :) Once or twice we had to take another jump run. We do know others, we all listen to the radio. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #30 May 1, 2005 Quotewhat about the part “and any known traffic delays of which the pilot in command has been advised by ATC”? As you are very well aware of the FAA’s catch all is the “Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight” part. Ever had ATC advise you of traffic delays under VFR flight? Under most circumstances I'd probably just ask for a frequency change and go about my bidness. I could, as a VFR pilot, become familiar with every DZ in the county and go fly VFR over every single one. Becoming familiar with all available information concerning a flight does not stop me from doing anything. Reckless flying is the catch all they'd get me on. Flying over a DZ on a nice saturday afternoon while listening to the wrong frequency is a pretty dumb thing to do. Flying a glider over a gliderport that happens to also be a DZ with no radio is a purely VFR activity and isn't so dumb... necessarily. I have no idea how that DZ/glider operation is set up...maybe they are supposed to stay in different areas. But it looks to me like a failure to spot each other. Both are at fault.... unless there's more information I don't know about like the glider clearly flying in a spot designated specially for skydivers by local procedures. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
andygregory 0 #31 May 1, 2005 hey big nose come down from your birdman flight and what does you eat the bear mean? , you trying to be intelligent or what Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #32 May 1, 2005 QuoteThat argument was used in a case involving base jumping at Lake Powell. The court ruled that parachutes are NOT aircraft, and it was upheld on appeal.Please cite the case as there was no change in the CFR's as a result. That would indicate that it was a non-federal court case. Also, as you read I was responding to Billvon's statement that he had never seen an FAA defination that a parachute was an aircraft and I was refering him to where he could find it.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #33 May 1, 2005 and 91.113 (2) A glider has the right-of-way over an airship, powered parachute, weight-shift-control aircraft, airplane, or rotorcraft. The FAA has already ruled that personal parachutes have right-of-way over other aircraft except balloons. *** They haven't. In Far 91.113, parachutists or freefalling skydivers are not mentioned in the pecking order. They should be, but they are not. AC-66A states: "When a drop zone has been established on an airport, parachutists are expected to land within the drop zone. At airports that have not established drop zones, parachutists should avoid landing on runways, taxiways, aprons, and their associated safety areas. Pilots and parachutists should both be aware of the limited flight performane of parachutes, and take steps to avoid any potential conflicts between aircraft and parachute operations." So maybe the FAA would find that it's both the jumper's & glider pilot's responsibility to avoid each other, and possibly the jumpship pilot's as well. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #34 May 1, 2005 QuotePilots have an obligation to become familiar with "all available information," as best they can Not true, there is no verbiage “as best they can”. It says that they will.Quotebut that does not mean they need to stay away from skydiving areas. I agree and I wish more skydivers that think they own the airspace would understand that.QuoteSkydivers have an obligation to avoid creating a hazard to other air traffic. AbsolutelyQuoteKeep in mind that not all pilots use sectionals.And that may be their choice but it does not in any way excuse them from knowing the required information on the sectionals. And that is my problem with the pilots who get enough information for them to complete their flight without regard to others using the airspace.QuoteMany use GPS or other digital displays that do not depict drop zones. Instrument pilots use IFR charts that do not include drop zones. New flight planning software does not depict drop zones. Drop zone listings in the AFD and on sectionals are not complete, and are often inaccurate.Again it may be the reason but it is still not an acceptable excuse.QuoteGliders have large wingspans, fly slowly, and should be easy to see. It is our obligation to clear the airspace before we jump. That means looking in all directions, and making sure traffic is not blocked by clouds.While I agree that gliders are less of a problem and we have an equal responsibility with other aircraft to clear the airspace the bottom line is that it is impossible to clear the airspace for the entire skydive before we exit. If you exit at 13,000’ and open at 3-4,000’ there is no way to clear all aircraft visually for a 5-7min. time span prior to exit which is why I always tell people you have to be continually clearing the airspace until you are on the ground.QuoteIt is really up to the pilots of jump planes AND THE JUMPERS to make sure the airspace is clear before we jump.And it is equally up to other aircraft to do the same. The sad thing is that we are more dangerous to ourselves than other aircraft. There are more canopy collisions that any other type of collisions.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #35 May 1, 2005 QuoteSo maybe the FAA would find that it's both the jumper's & glider pilot's responsibility to avoid each other, and possibly the jump ship pilot's as well.I personally agree and think that they are equal. If you look at some of the high glide ratio canopies today and look at the similarities to gliders, they are very close. Both get a ride to altitude, can be ground launched, have limited time aloft and are controllable. Hell, two years ago I had an F-16 pass between me and a tandem. Now considering how fast they go there is no way in hell you could have spotted him before exit.When I got down I asked the pilot if he had contacted ATC and he said yes but the military doesn't care or pay attention and this happens all the time. Needless to say that was my last jump there.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #36 May 1, 2005 BTW Once I was almost hit by a glider rolling on a taxiway after landing.................I`va almost forgot to look around before cross the taxiway. Yack. You can hear them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Beerlight 0 #37 May 1, 2005 Ding....ding...ding.... We have the winner.... PilotDave hit the nail on the head..... 1. It's NOT illegal to fly thru a designated parachuting area. Just seriously stupid...... 2. Airspace is NOT restricted at civilian DZ's..... The moral to the story. Watch for traffic before exit....that is all...... Beerlight Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,443 #38 May 1, 2005 >Aircraft means a device that is used or intended to be used for flight in the air. At least one FAA case I can think of (the Lake Powell case) has stated in the decision that skydivers are not aircraft. Besides, if skydivers are aircraft, then all the other rules apply, Do you carry a mode-C transponder? Do you make a call to unicom or the tower before landing? Do you have a class-3 medical? Have you ever had a drunk driving conviction? I would be very, very careful wanting the FAA to consider us pilots. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 15 #39 May 1, 2005 QuoteQuoteThat argument was used in a case involving base jumping at Lake Powell. The court ruled that parachutes are NOT aircraft, and it was upheld on appeal.Please cite the case as there was no change in the CFR's as a result. That would indicate that it was a non-federal court case. Also, as you read I was responding to Billvon's statement that he had never seen an FAA defination that a parachute was an aircraft and I was refering him to where he could find it. Case was filed in US 10th Circuit. UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, PLAINTIFF, VS. THE BASE JUMPERS No. 96-CR-077 J. United States District Court,D. Utah. Sept. 30, 1997 MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER Specificially this part: The Government, on the other hand, argues that BASE jumping parachutes should not be considered "aircraft" under the regulations. Although the Government conceded at oral argument that the parachutes allegedly used by the defendants may exhibit some of the characteristics of flight, i.e., they can travel horizontally, (Transcript of Hearing on Motion to Dismiss, dated Sept. 9, 1996, at 49), it argues that the rulemaking history of Section 2.17 supports the view that parachutes of any kind do not fall within the meaning of "aircraft." Held up in appeal of: UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, PLAINTIFF-APPELLANT, VS. THE BASE JUMPERS, APPELLEES. No. 96-4173. United States Court of Appeals, Tenth Circuit. Oct. 31, 1997. Appeal From The United States District Court For The District Of Utah (D.C. No. 96-CR-077 J) The entire case history can be found on findlaw.comYesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #40 May 1, 2005 QuoteBesides, if skydivers are aircraft, then all the other rules apply, Do you carry a mode-C transponder? Do you make a call to unicom or the tower before landing? Do you have a class-3 medical? Have you ever had a drunk driving conviction? I would be very, very careful wanting the FAA to consider us pilots.Yes I have a class-3 medical as you are aware since you did go on a tandem jump with us last year at Rantoul, no I do not have any DUI’s. But the point is that you not have to have a pilots lic. for all categories of aircraft. And mode –c transponders and radios are not required out side class ABC airspace.Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #41 May 1, 2005 Thanks Eric. I wonder if lawrocket or someone could tell us why since that ruling the FAA not only kept that definition but have added powered parachutes specifically as an "aircraft" category? I would also be interested to know what the FAA's view is on modern day parachutes that can actually ascend in thermals and ground launch like a glider?Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
negcamber 0 #42 May 2, 2005 Mind if a glider pilot crashes the thread? Some one asked how high gliders go...in the southeast US, the situation from the pic would be unlikely since thermals usually create a cloud base under 10k. In the mid-west & west, strong thermal activity or waves can definitely get up to 13,5 and well beyond. (Gliders can request special IFR waivers for wave flights above 18kMSL). In the northeast...it depends on terrain...hills and mountains can create good ridge/wave flights but most times it is plain old thermals that will cloud base at under 10k. In the US, we all have to depend on each other to safely share the sky when operating outside controlled airspace. I can tell you that I operate at an airport with a DZ. I have a radio and as soon as the jump plane gives a 3 min warning on unicom, I start looking around to see if I am in a dangerous location. If the sky is blue above me and I'm near the cone, I put the nose down and get the hell clear. But...my ship has a battery electrical system to run a radio that many gliders do not have. So what do we all do? We all have had extensive training to fly our respective sports. That training is not just to keep yourself safe, but to keep others safe as well. We each need to think about what we are doing in the air. Don't act carelessly just because you may or may not have right of way over another. When you get right down to it, the right of way is moot if either glider pilot or jumper dies because one or the other does not take action to avoid obvious danger. And in my opinion, that goes double for jump plane pilots, who, given their advanced ratings, should be far more attuned to spotting traffic dangers. And then do what is necessary to keep their passengers and other pilots safe...even if that means burning a few more gallons of fuel to go around. BTW...one request...please please do not jump through clouds if glider ops are at your airport. I'm sure it is a rush...but one of the scariest incidents I've experienced was to have a jumper pass right in front of my nose as I'm thermalling 500ft below a cloud. He was so close that all I saw was a black blur come shooting out of the cloud. As I looked down to see the canopy pattern so I could talk to this person later, I noticed all of the other jumpers seemed to have avoided this cloud just fine. Remember, clouds point to thermals...and under thermals is where you will find gliders. Stay safe... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
n23x 0 #43 May 2, 2005 Negcamber, very well said. .jim"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #44 May 2, 2005 Quotewonder if lawrocket or someone could tell us why since that ruling the FAA not only kept that definition but have added powered parachutes specifically as an "aircraft" category? A powered parachute IS an aircraft. Most are ultralights and fall under FAR 103. But it's entirely possible to create a 20,000 lb powered parachute, powered by turbojet engines. It simply doesn't fall into the same category as "airplane" or "rotorcraft" or "airship." A PPC is it's own sort of thing with it's own flight characteristics and limitations. I don't know why the FAA doesn't define right of way rules for skydivers vs aircraft, but I don't CARE who has right of way. We all need to avoid each other no matter who has the right of way over who. Aside from a recent accident, aircraft/parachute collisions are extremely rare. It's skydivers in freefall that I worry about a lot more. And the simple fact is, a skydiver in freefall is in no possible way an aircraft. And who has the right of way is 100% irrelevant. We need to avoid them, they need to avoid us. Doesn't work as a one way street. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DJL 232 #45 May 2, 2005 The people who were on this aircraft need to take spotting a bit more seriously. I've seen tiny aircraft from altitude and there's no way someone should miss something of this size and shape against the ground. Also, it's not just the spotter's responsibility. Everyone can look out the windows. A few months ago I saw a plane that would have passed right beneath us parallell to jump run just by looking out a side window as we turned onto the jumprun leg. Spotting doesn't mean a bullshit look at the ground and then waiting for green."I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Foursprouts 0 #46 May 2, 2005 QuoteNo person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from an aircraft, if that operation creates a hazard to air traffic or to persons or property on the surface That is in the FAR's. That means it is a law. If you had hit the glider and killed the pilot the blame would land on the pilot flying the jump plane for allowing you to get out. It is crazy and I do not agree with it but it is the law. There is no right of way rule that includes skydivers for the simple fact that once in freefall a jumper would find it hard to avoid a plane. The pilot of the plane would find it even harded to see and avoid a skydiver in freefall. That is why the responsibility is with the jump pilot because he has the most information and control in the situation. Because of the airspace layout in the US I bet that at any non military DZ it would be legal for a pilot to fly over it at 6,000ft not talking on the radio and without a transponder. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #47 May 2, 2005 QuoteAnd mode –c transponders and radios are not required out side class ABC airspace. Mode C is required within the 30-m mode-C veil, which extends beyond the class B airspace. A radio is required in class A,B,C and D airspace and for parachute operations. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
negcamber 0 #48 May 2, 2005 QuoteQuoteAnd mode –c transponders and radios are not required out side class ABC airspace. A radio is required in class A,B,C and D airspace and for parachute operations. Actually, there is a caveat for Class D: "Unless otherwise authorized, each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility providing air traffic services prior to entering the airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while in the airspace." You can operate without a radio in Class D with the tower's advanced permission...ie, give'em a call and let'em know your planned departure or entry into the airspace so they can watch for you. Light signals are used by the tower to communicate instructions to the pilot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyRick 0 #49 May 3, 2005 A few weeks ago I went out last on a 6 way and the first thing I saw on exit was an airliner about 1K below and he was turning to miss us. The guy in first class was drinking a Diet Coke. Our airport has heavy glider traffic on any good weekend. You should all remind the spotter on the load to look for triffic, had he looked, he would have seen the glider. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
itllclear 1 #50 May 3, 2005 A number of drop zones have Victor airways (8 miles wide) going over them. That information is available to jumpers and pilots on all the charts. The fact that there is an airway should let the jumpers know there may be pilots more focused on their navigation instruments than looking out for jumpers. If we get into a "shoving match" remember that there are more pilots than jumpers, so guess who's going to win. We ALL have to look out for other traffic, whatever kind it is. Blue Skies! Harry Leicher P.S. Question with which I start out my FAA seminar..."Is there anyone here who flies a C-210 with red trim and small numbers? You probably didn't see me when I went by you at 7,500 over Perris a couple of years ago.""Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
