should TIME IN SPORT also become a requirement instead of jumpnumbers alone..

[Will_Evo 0]

? Wouldn't those 2 people in essence be spending the same amount of physical time at the DZ? Assuming of course it takes each of them say 45 min(just a way to measure) to do 1 jump?

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[nigel99 144]

Quote

>So then wouldn't you agree that jump number is directly related to time
>IN SPORT? Therefore making jump number an accurate measurement of
>experience?

No.

Someone who is at the DZ every weekend, and makes 500 jumps in six months, does not have the same amount of time in sport that someone who is at the DZ every weekend and makes 500 jumps over the course of two years. In fact he only has 1/4 of the time in sport.

Both are superior to the person who has one jump and has been on the couch for two years.

But in reality can you quantify that time in a way that is measureable? Going on your example of seasonal experience - I could be an active jumper for 4 years and only jump on nice sunny summers days accumulating my 500 jumps, while you accumulate your 500 jumps in 1 year including winter. Surely that is the point of license requirements such night jumps, practical experience is what counts - if people are ticking the boxes too quickly then perhaps the bar needs to be raised?

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Rstanley0312 0]

That's one of the reasons that time in sport IS important. Someone with 500 jumps at one DZ over the course of six months hasn't seen other DZ's. He hasn't traveled much because he's only been jumping in the summer and fall. He hasn't seen other people land different canopies. He hasn't seen many wingsuit pilots talking about their problems. He's only seen the people in his little pond.

However, try to find someone who's been in the sport for five years who HASN'T travelled. Much harder to do.

Just a question Bill...... I have a huge amount of jumps... 215 and have been in the sport just over 1 year. I jump at a 182 small DZ but I have also been to Raeford, Zhills (Christmas Bogie), SDC (Summerfest), and our Boogie (Richmond "The Boogie") I am not saying I know anything just curious if I have 400 jumps by the end of our season and I have traveled to different DZ's and jumped with a lot of people in the air does time matter as much to me? I do think it is valuable but I am refering to what you said and I agree most do not travel away from their "pond" but I do and am planning to go to Zhills again, the PR Boogie, and our boogie of course is over Labor Day weekend. So 2 yrs is not much time but having 400-500 jumps in that time with the travel to bigger dz's..... would that make me qualified learn how to jump a wingsuit?

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[NWFlyer 2]

Quote

That's one of the reasons that time in sport IS important. Someone with 500 jumps at one DZ over the course of six months hasn't seen other DZ's. He hasn't traveled much because he's only been jumping in the summer and fall. He hasn't seen other people land different canopies. He hasn't seen many wingsuit pilots talking about their problems. He's only seen the people in his little pond.

I was having a conversation with skybytch last weekend (and hopefully she won't mind me sharing her comments here). I was talking about a boogie I attended recently with a relatively small landing area and pretty poor landing pattern discipline with a lot of canopies in the air. She made a comment to the effect of "bet that scared you a lot more than it would have a few years ago."

She was right. I've only got five years under my belt, but that includes jumping at 24 different DZs, from tiny single-Cessna operations to multi-turbine boogies and everything in between. I am more aware now of the risks than I was last year or three years ago or five years ago. And I'm also more aware of how much I *don't* know... I just hope I can keep learning through second hand experience rather than first.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[davelepka 4]

Just to make the point, 10 jumps in one day equals one DZ, one set of weather conditions, one group of jumpers, generally one aricraft and one landing area.

10 jumps over the course of two weeks equals at least two different weather conditions, and two groups of jumpers. It might very well be from a two different planes at two different DZs with two different landing areas.

See how making two trips to the (or one trip each to two different) DZ offers you an exposure to a wider number of factors and experiences?

Beyond that, let's say you need 200 jumps or two years in the sport to take a wingsuit class. If you happen to be the guy making 260 jumps per year, can't you see that you'll be that much sharper in two years, when you have 520 jumps than the guy who just breaks 200 after two years?

Can't you see that it's to your advantage to go into wingsuit flight with more jumps than less? More time in the sport than less?

It shouldn't be that hard to understand.

Here's a lesson for you - 'Shut up and jump' does not mean to literally shut up and jump, it's a term used in skydiving to denote when talking won't get you any further, it's just time to skydive. It's not an attack, more of a state of mind.

[riggerpaul 1]

Quote

>Exactly! It's time IN SPORT that matters, not time on the couch

So then wouldn't you agree that jump number is directly related to time IN SPORT? Therefore making jump number an accurate measurement of experience?

-Evo

Jump number are not the whole story. Certainly they are part of it. But the simple number of jumps doesn't tell the whole story.

The problem is that you must be around a sufficiently long time to see stuff that you hope you will never have to experience.

Then you have had to spend enough time thinking about what you have seen to formulate plans and habits that will keep you from having to experience all you have seen.

A lot of people say they understand the risk in skydiving, and that they accept them.

But I think they would be far more accurate to say that they understand the possible consequences of skydiving.

Understanding the consequences is where you must begin.

Understanding the risks is what you get from lots of jumps and lots of time being a jumper who is learning what he needs to know to survive.

You can make hundreds of jumps doing something wrong and not even know it.

Not every little mistake ends with a fatality. Not every little mistake ends with something bad happening at all. Lots of the little mistakes will have no apparent consequences at all, but that doesn't mean they weren't mistakes. Sometime that little mistake might just kill you, though. Sometimes it will take that one little mistake plus some other little mistake to combine with just the right (wrong?) circumstance before anything bad happens.

Knowing all these little things just isn't something that can be learned without being around for a while. This is partly because there is no comprehensive catalog of all the silly little mistakes.

Sure, some skills come just from jumping a bunch of times.

But other skills will not be developed unless you are around listening and learning from all that goes on around you.

Even being around lots of times and making lots of jumps doesn't ensure that you will learn what's out there to be learned. If you come to the dz, and keep to yourself, and make a few jumps each time, and go home, you will be missing a huge chunk of the learning opportunities.

You need to be around, asking questions, hearing stories, sharing experiences, to learn all that needs to be learned.

So even just time in sport and jump numbers doesn't tell the whole story.

It has to be QUALITY time in sport, time where you are actually learning something, to count.

That's what Bill means by "IN SPORT" as opposed to on the couch.

[billvon 2,406]

>Wouldn't those 2 people in essence be spending the same amount of
>physical time at the DZ?

No. One has spent six months worth of weekends. The other has spent two years worth of weekends.

On a typical weekend day I'm at the DZ, involved in jumping, from about 8am to 3-6pm. (After that I might hang around for another few hours in the bar.) On those days I do between 0 and 14 jumps. Ironically, the days when the weather is good and I can do 14 jumps are the days I get done _sooner_ - because we get in a rhythm and can average 2 jumps an hour. The really long days are the bigway days that we wait all day for weather.

I've heard more than one person say "well, those weather days aren't REAL days, because you're not jumping." But often those are the days you learn the most. Those are the days that the pilots are sitting around bitching about the weather, and telling tall tales about that storm at Quincy. Those are the days that the 4 way team can't jump, and have the time to tell you a little bit about exits. Those are the days that the rigger hauls out the old rounds to drag people down the runway.

And the stuff you learn on days like that is stuff you will never learn in an AFF classroom.

[johan340 0]

Quote

>Well there are only one risk one can be "fully" aware of and that would be
>death from a simple mistake, right?
--
Uh - no. There are plenty of complex mistakes in skydiving that will kill you, too. And right now you have no idea what any of those mistakes are.
---
Just because I happen not to have a license yet doesn't mean I'm stupid and I was trying to be sarcastic about that answer.

>you don't think I have been close to death before in other sports?
--
We have seen this time and time again. "I race motorcycles so I understand the risks, and I am comfortable with speed! So I am way above average, and can jump that tiny canopy with my superior judgment and reaction times." They often end up dead. Conclusion there - they really didn't understand the risks.
--
-I don't give a flying fuck about what other may have done, I care about my life and I don't think I'm above anything and I don't take stupid risks. I know where I lack knowledge and that is something I'm going to change, what is it with you uptight people?

Everyone is a newbie in the beginning that's a fact, I haven't said anything that points in the another direction that I would have no problems what-so-ever. I know there will be problems that I will need to practice on etc, the only thing that could "put me from the rest" could be that at least I do all the research I can before getting my self into something dangures and have the common sense of understanding that if things goes wrong then it can be a deadly outcome and that I'm very aware of.
--
Back when Jack was managing Perris, he'd go out to every yahoo who broke his leg. They all had the same thing to say - "I thought I had it." "I thought I could pull it off." Not a single one said "that was an expected result of the increased risks I was taking." Conclusion there - they really didn't understand the risks.
---

-I have never gone beyond my own ability because of the simple reason, I don't like getting hurt and I'm not a dare devil, if I'm doing something and get uncomfortable I slow done at once, I have always done that and always will because I hate being in an uncomfortable situation.
---
Around a year ago a jumper really wanted to wingsuit. He went to a DZ that told him he didn't have enough experience, that he needed some more jumps/time in sport. He ignored them and went to another DZ, where he found someone who was willing to stick him in a wingsuit. He died. Conclusion there - he didn't quite understand what he was doing, much less the risks involved.
--
-So I'm getting bashed for others stupidity, well that is very nice, I came here to get more knowledge to prepare my self more for what to come.

Just fucking read what I have been writing before, I can high light it for you aswell.

"Trust me I got patience, sure I have always wanted to fly a wingsuit and that is also what I'm looking forward to the most (that might change though)but I'm in no hurry what-so-ever to get there.

I will take my time for as long as I have to until I would feel ready/comfortable enough for it and that might not even be after 300-400 jumps. " and as I have said before I accept how things are and are in no rush what-so-ever it may even turn out that I will never fly wingsuit who knows??? I don't, not now anyways, I will just take it as it goes "

Does that sound like someone who would take unnecessary risks and be a dare devil or someone who actually are willing to wait no matter how many years it would take to get there?
---
> and seen pretty much every clip there is on youtube and similar sites with
>accidents, the only thing I don't know is how it is from personal experience but
>I'm aware of the risks that are in the sport and I accept that.

If someone said "I'm ready for sparring - I have seen every Chuck Norris movie there is, I am totally aware of the risks and I am ready to accept them" - would you agree with him that he's ready?
---
- I have done the paralell of how this whole discussion could be related to sparring and about how an instrocture should be able to say if someone is ready for advancing or not.

No I don't agree with that as you would have understood if you read my posts and stop taking me for a fucking idiot. what I mean by checking on youtube etc is because there I CAN SEE WHAT CAN GO WRONG and see how people have managed to solve the problems,those giving me a pretty damn good idea of many risks it involves.
--
>I know what I can and what I can't do and what I can't do I practice until I can.

No, you don't. You don't even know what you don't know - and you certainly don't know enough to make judgments based on relative risks.
--
- Really? so by me saying that, I know and are aware of that I don't actually have personal experiences in skydiving and are soon going the course to LEARN what there is to learn about how to skydive and all the securety aspects, doesn't make me know anything or what I need to practice on?

Just the fact that I know I don't have personal experience, shows that I know what I need to practice on which for now is everything that got to do with skydiving, how fucking hard can that be to understand?


I thought this was a layed back forum where someone could gather a great deal of knowledge and where one could discuss things without being bashed for what other dare devils and idiots have done before and I have tried to make you people understand my intentions but it is for deaf ears so I will take my leave and when ever I would need some gear tips I will just be lurking instead of actually asking, don't wanna get bashed for a stupid question like what helmet would better or what parachute would be the best option for a newbie when that time will come.

Peace and love.

Cheers!!!

[billvon 2,406]

>But in reality can you quantify that time in a way that is measureable?

As in boxes you can check off on a form? Not really. In _general_ more time in sport means a broader background and a wider perspective.

>I could be an active jumper for 4 years and only jump on nice sunny
>summers days accumulating my 500 jumps, while you accumulate your
>500 jumps in 1 year including winter.

Exactly! And someone who is there every weekend, rain or shine, for four years, will have a better perspective on the sport.

>if people are ticking the boxes too quickly then perhaps the bar needs to be raised?

If your goal is a list of boxes to check off to prove someone is a competent and experienced jumper - you will never have enough boxes.

[billvon 2,406]

>would that make me qualified learn how to jump a wingsuit?

500 jumps in 2+ years at 4 DZ's? I think that would probably qualify you to start learning to fly a wingsuit - provided that your skills, attitude, belly experience etc also were up to snuff.

However, if someone showed up who had only freefly jumps from 12,500 at one DZ over the course of six months, he might not. He might well say "I have EXACTLY the same experience as that other guy! And I am a really heads-up, competent and high speed kinda guy!" But that wouldn't make him as ready as you.

[JumpRu 14]

I wonder why is that always experience guys try to put limitation on new jumpers? They used to back up their arguments with “jump numbers”, but new guys can make 500 jumps a year (I did many years ago) and tell them to go F$%^$! So this jump number thing is not working anymore. Now it is “time in sport”… not skills, not jump numbers, but simply time since first jump. I guess “time in sport” is the only thing that makes those old farts special

[Rstanley0312 0]

Ok.... I was just wondering.... I thought it might be the point I could get in to it but was not sure mostly bc I am not there yet and until I am I won't know if I am comfortable trying it. I know right now I would not be just as I waited until I had 100+ jumps to start freeflying at all. Some say its okay to start earlier with that but I disagree. jmho and my comfort level so I hope that others really listen to more experienced jumpers and enjoy the journey. God knows I have made mistakes and will make more I just want to be jumping for a very long time.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[tetra316 0]

Quote

I wonder why is that always experience guys try to put limitation on new jumpers?

Because newer jumper don't yet know what they don't know They think they are bullet proof and have 'mad skillz'.

[Rstanley0312 0]

Quote

Quote

I wonder why is that always experience guys try to put limitation on new jumpers?

Because newer jumper don't yet know what they don't know They think they are bullet proof and have 'mad skillz'.

I have CRAZY MAD SKILLZ!!

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[JumpRu 14]

Then our duty is to explain those things to people who want to listen. I’m talking about other limitations: “no camera”, “no hook turns”, “no downsizing” and etc. There is nothing preventing person with “A” license from doing all that. Is it smart for everyone? No. But risk level is a personal choice.
And one more thing, don’t be surprised if one day you’ll be asked to show your “skydiving resume” with contact numbers of “experienced skydiver” to simply jump out of airplane. We already made several steps on this slippery road.

[billvon 2,406]

>I wonder why is that always experience guys try to put limitation on new
>jumpers?

Because we've had to wash the blood of those new jumpers off our hands a few times. That changes your perspective a bit.

>Now it is “time in sport”… not skills, not jump numbers, but simply time
>since first jump.

Wrong! It's all those things. Plus time spent at the DZ. Plus attitude. Plus wisdom. Newer jumpers don't want to hear that. They're the "now" generation, and since they've never gotten hurt (or seen anyone else get hurt) they have no real idea of what they are risking. They think their 100 jumps qualifies them for, well, pretty much anything.

That's why the "broken femur" is such an important milestone for some. Once that happens to a jumper, they gain some perspective, and have a better idea of what the risks are and how far to push the limits.

How do you get someone to have the experience that a broken femur provides? You can talk to people, but all too often, they think they have mad skillz and tell you to (in your words) "go F$%^$."

>Then our duty is to explain those things to people who want to listen.

Many of us try, but are bitched at by 100 jump wonders who call us "old farts" and encourage people to ignore such explanations.

>And one more thing, don’t be surprised if one day you’ll be asked to
>show your “skydiving resume” with contact numbers of “experienced
>skydiver” to simply jump out of airplane. We already made several
>steps on this slippery road.

Dude, we have that now. If you want to do something dangerous (say, a demo, or a bigway, or a wingsuit flock) you're going to be asked for those things.

[tetra316 0]

Quote

>And one more thing, don’t be surprised if one day you’ll be asked to
>show your “skydiving resume” with contact numbers of “experienced
>skydiver” to simply jump out of airplane. We already made several
>steps on this slippery road.

Dude, we have that now. If you want to do something dangerous (say, a demo, or a bigway, or a wingsuit flock) you're going to be asked for those things.

Yep. I had to provide this info several times this year in order to apply/get on events I wanted to do.

[talon1206 0]

I think that 10 hours of youtube and 500 DZ.com posts qualify for a time in the sport requirment...especially for wingsuits and camera flyers...

"Pilots without Maintainers are just pedestrians with cool jackets and sunglasses"

[JumpRu 14]

First of all, yes if one have a desire to participate in some event then organizer can ask some questions, even make some phone calls. That is one thing, but we should not become one of those “professional groups” where you have to bring recommendations and letters from “respected jumpers” to do your own skydive (jump your canopy, make a formation with your friends, swoop on landing, use video camera and etc.).

Now about the rest of your post… Those are licensed skydivers we are talking about here. They were students and passed the test and now they have as much rights to jump as you and me. We have some safety rules but those rules applies to EVERYONE regardless “time in sport” and that is a good thing..

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

I wonder why is that always experience guys try to put limitation on new jumpers? They used to back up their arguments with “jump numbers”, but new guys can make 500 jumps a year (I did many years ago) and tell them to go F$%^$! So this jump number thing is not working anymore. Now it is “time in sport”… not skills, not jump numbers, but simply time since first jump. I guess “time in sport” is the only thing that makes those old farts special

The things I dislike most about parachute sports are

1. Friends dying
2. Other people dying through no fault of their own
3. Getting hurt
4. Friends getting hurt
5. Other people dying through their own stupidity
6. Other people getting hurt

I know from experience that time-in-sport teaches people judgment that makes all of those less likely because it gives people more opportunity to learn from others' mistakes.

[billvon 2,406]

>Those are licensed skydivers we are talking about here. They were
>students and passed the test and now they have as much rights to jump
>as you and me.

No, they don't. They don't have the right to do a demo wherever they want without a PRO rating. They don't have the right to teach students without an instructor rating, or make a night jump without the right license.

Those are just the official restrictions, but anyone with common sense applies other restrictions as well. You can't jump a Xaos-27 78 at 100 jumps. You can't get on a belly 20-way if you have 200 freefly jumps and only 10 belly jumps. You can't jump a wingsuit if you have only 40 jumps. These are not written down anywhere; they are enforced through the common sense of other jumpers. Most jumpers won't sell you the Xaos, and most jumpers won't let you on that 20 way with that level of experience.

You may chafe under those rules, and you may consider them to not apply to you. But I am glad they are there, because they keep friends of mine alive. And I think it's a good thing that we don't need a rule for every bit of skydiving, and that common sense still applies in most cases.

> We have some safety rules but those rules applies to EVERYONE
> regardless “time in sport” and that is a good thing..

Agreed there.

[danielcroft 2]

E: All of the above.

The license system in the US needs an overhaul, they should be testing actual skills (B & C are stupid IMO).

Limitations on what advanced activities people can get involved in should be a combination of jump numbers & experience (i.e. time in sport). Using a ratio based on jumps per year might give you a feel for the person's experience, e.g. average jumps per year taking into account off years etc. But the instructor should also take into account the person's state of mind and attitude.

For all those arguing for pure jump numbers, consider the socialization of a person who is home-schooled over one who goes to school. The home school kid may have more book smarts but will probably have less street smarts. 1000 jumps in a year makes you book smart but not street smart (to paraphrase the argument as I understand it). Street smarts plus book smarts make a more balanced person who is more capable of dealing with unexpected and unknown circumstances.

IMO/NOOB/ETC.

[JumpRu 14]

Quote

No, they don't. They don't have the right to do a demo wherever they want without a PRO rating. They don't have the right to teach students without an instructor rating, or make a night jump without the right license.

they have every right to apply for any of those ratings, just like every other skydiver. But in my post i was not talking about 100 jump wonder becoming instructor, if you understand this from my post, well i'm sorry that was not what i'm trying to say.

Quote

Those are just the official restrictions, but anyone with common sense applies other restrictions as well.

Those “other restrictions” comes only from owner of particular DZ. DZO has every right refuse anyone to jump at the DZ without any reason at all. Some make local rules some follow USPA recommendations. That is DZ policy issue and unless we own a DZ this is not for us to decide how and when to apply those rules.

[billvon 2,406]

>they have every right to apply for any of those ratings, just like every
>other skydiver.

Absolutely! Just as every jumper out there has the right to work hard to get enough experience to do bigways, jump small canopies etc. We can help them along that path while making it clear that there IS a path - it's not just one step and you're there.

>Those “other restrictions” comes only from owner of particular DZ.

And from other jumpers. I have refused to sell small canopies to people. I have refused to let low-time jumpers on my load. I have grounded people who jumped canopies they weren't ready for. These are the "informal limits" I was talking about before.

[JumpRu 14]

Quote

Absolutely! Just as every jumper out there has the right to work hard to get enough experience to do bigways, jump small canopies etc. We can help them along that path while making it clear that there IS a path - it's not just one step and you're there.

With bigways… I don’t know, this is something where you interact with other people and you basically need their approval to get on the load.
There is completely different situation with those ratings, BSRs and general recommendations, they were put in place by USPA, organization we all suppose to have some influence over. At least in theory this is organization of skydivers and for skydivers and that is why we all should follow those recommendations.
Usually they have very good judgment and I hope will never put “time in sport”, “proper attitude” or “wisdom” in their requirements, rules and recommendations. I doubt many skydivers would pass “proper attitude and wisdom” test

Quote

And from other jumpers. I have refused to sell small canopies to people. I have refused to let low-time jumpers on my load. I have grounded people who jumped canopies they weren't ready for. These are the "informal limits" I was talking about before.

Very good, but unfortunately they can get all that right here on dropzone.com or even buy from manufacturer.

You kick them off your load and they will get together and attempt this stunt with other inexperienced people.

You ground them and they will go some place else.

I think the key here is to advise them in a nice calm manner and they will avoid at least some mistakes along their way. To do that one must have very good people skills, not just “time in sports”, “jump numbers”, “ratings” and loud voice.