Re: [Kallend] Landing Injury West Tennessee Skydiving 07 May 2005

[Hooknswoop 19]

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There was NOTHING to stop you pro-new-rules guys running a slate of pro-new-rules candidates. Nothing! If you don't run, don't turn around and whine that the other guys did.

I see, so you admit the data you offered to support your point is worthless?

You listed the winners of the USPA election as data to prove that the majority of skydivers do not support a WL BSR. I don’t see how a list of the winners of the election supports that, nor has he shown how it does. As for your suggestion that I run, I can’t, I’m not a USPA member (and proud of that too).

My second point was made very well by Likarock;

Likarock said:

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I think the point is that support of a WL BSR is not necessarily the consensus of the majority of skydivers (was there a poll here on the subject?). So a pro-WL-BSR candidate wouldn't necessarily win. However, it could be argued that the majority opinion is not always the right decision (analogous to popular support of segregation in the south).

What the majority wants may not be in the majority’s best interest.

People continue to pound in under canopies they clearly are not ready for. You do not support a WL BSR and mandatory education/training with an option to test out and get waivered, but you have no other or better solution to fix the problem that you say doesn’t exist. You seem to be OK with the status quo.

Derek

[kallend 1,632]

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There was NOTHING to stop you pro-new-rules guys running a slate of pro-new-rules candidates. Nothing! If you don't run, don't turn around and whine that the other guys did.

I see, so you admit the data you offered to support your point is worthless?

You listed the winners of the USPA election as data to prove that the majority of skydivers do not support a WL BSR. I don’t see how a list of the winners of the election supports that, nor has he shown how it does. As for your suggestion that I run, I can’t, I’m not a USPA member (and proud of that too).

My second point was made very well by Likarock;

Likarock said:

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I think the point is that support of a WL BSR is not necessarily the consensus of the majority of skydivers (was there a poll here on the subject?). So a pro-WL-BSR candidate wouldn't necessarily win. However, it could be argued that the majority opinion is not always the right decision (analogous to popular support of segregation in the south).

What the majority wants may not be in the majority’s best interest.

People continue to pound in under canopies they clearly are not ready for. You do not support a WL BSR and mandatory education/training with an option to test out and get waivered, but you have no other or better solution to fix the problem that you say doesn’t exist. You seem to be OK with the status quo.

Derek

I admit nothing of the sort. After you pro-new-rules folks had been agitating for a couple of years already a free and fair USPA election with no member disenfranchised was held. You guys couldn't even field a slate of candidates and now you whine and whine.

Free elections - that's the way democracy works. Less than 21% of the US population voted for Bush, do you deny that he's President?

What you want is called despotism.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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You guys couldn't even field a slate of candidates and now you whine and whine.

How am I supposed to "field a slate of candidates"?

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What you want is called despotism.

If despotism is reduced injuries and fatalities from people flying canopies they aren't ready for, then yes, I want despotism.

So your data showing that the majority of jumpers do not want a WL BSR is based on election results when you don't even know how many people ran that were pro WL BSR and how many were anti WL BSR? Doesn't seem like very accurate to me. If that is all you have, you don't have any data.

Derek

[Zenister 0]

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Likarock said:

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. However, it could be argued that the majority opinion is not always the right decision (analogous to popular support of segregation in the south).

What the majority wants may not be in the majority’s best interest.

hmmm perhaps there should be an addendum to 'Godwins's law' for drawing a ridiculous analogy between supporting the individual's right to Self Determination with supporting the 'right' of one race to subjugate another....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Hooknswoop 19]

I'd be willing to bet that skydivers would be against ANY new BSR.

Derek

[freakydiver 0]

Why do you say that? I don't think the community will ever safely police itself against these yearly low timer pound ins - ever. Sooner or later, enough people will become very sick of seeing this time and time again. I am. I'm sick of low timers making the same mistake I made 10 years ago.

Take base for instance, most of the mistakes made 10 years ago were taken to heart and learned from. The seriousness in terms of attitude that the average base jumper takes should imho be transferred to our sport. Why the hell do we not teach students about high wingloadings, would that be sooooooooo difficult? Explain to them that swooping looks cool and swoopers attract the chicks (tounge in cheek), etc, etc. Then show them how people have had to deal with femurs and spines go awry by getting in way over their head - not just on one jump, but in the decisions they made that got them there.

Perhaps rules aren't the way to go, but as far as I can tell, and perhaps I'm wrong having not paid any attention to AFF instruction these days, but it seems as though no time is spent on educating on this aspect of our sport even though it is THE MOST visible of all. Show these damn students video of dudes smacking into the ground and bouncing. Take interviews of the next four years of their lives where they have to learn to deal with huge amounts of pain. Explain the medical costs incurred. SHOW THE STUDENTS, TELL THE STUDENTS. I just don't get it I guess.

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[billvon 2,402]

>Why the hell do we not teach students about high wingloadings, would
>that be sooooooooo difficult?

Many students are immune to such advice.

> but it seems as though no time is spent on educating on this aspect
>of our sport even though it is THE MOST visible of all.

Agreed. Which is why I think that the very first step we have to take is to create a canopy coach rating, with a syllabus, standards of performance and materials for use by the coach to teach HP canopy flight. Make it optional at first. If that doesn't fix the problem, make it mandatory at some point, like water training. If that doesn't fix the problem, make it mandatory _and_ add wingload restrictions until they get the training.

[freakydiver 0]

"Many students are immune to such advice."

That is crap in my book. Don't make it advice, make it VERY real to them. You show the failed hook in my terms, and it becomes very very real to them. Harp on the statistics, show pics of compound fractures, show testimonials about how people had to declare bankruptcy after an injury like this because of all of the medical bills incurred. Show the 100 jump wonder, ask him how he thought he could handle things and he couldn't.

To tie into your second comment, my idea merged with your idea of canopy coach ratings, standards of performance, etc etc is a great one. It brings canopy flight into the current age, puts it in the same boat as aircraft flight. I don't know much about private aircraft, but I'm assuming there are tried and true progressions for moving into more and more high performance aircraft, why not parachutes?

The only way I see it is that this problem will continue to get worse until major changes are made. The visibility of swooping at the DZ combined with just flat out human nature is going to push alot of eager pilots into canopies that they shouldn't be under.

Doing nothing is immune to the problem at hand, and for me personally, I'm sick and tired of the yearly low timer swoop incident. I am embarassed that I was one and because of being able to get up and walk away from it - I feel as though I can help that next prospect to understand that there is nothing wrong with progressing slowly through the canopy progression...

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[Ron 7]

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"Many students are immune to such advice."

That is crap in my book. Don't make it advice, make it VERY real to them. You show the failed hook in my terms, and it becomes very very real to them. Harp on the statistics, show pics of compound fractures, show testimonials about how people had to declare bankruptcy after an injury like this because of all of the medical bills incurred. Show the 100 jump wonder, ask him how he thought he could handle things and he couldn't.

You seem to miss the #1 thing that makes a "100 jump wonder"...They don't think the rules apply to them, they are better than the "others" at 100 jumps.

No one that bounced or hooked in thought they were gonna. No one does.

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To tie into your second comment, my idea merged with your idea of canopy coach ratings, standards of performance, etc etc is a great one. It brings canopy flight into the current age, puts it in the same boat as aircraft flight. I don't know much about private aircraft, but I'm assuming there are tried and true progressions for moving into more and more high performance aircraft, why not parachutes?

There are. If you want to fly a "complex" aircraft (Retracts, constant speed prop, flaps) you need a check out with a CFI. If you want to fly a tailwheel (Once the norm, but led to many accidents later) you need a checkout. If you want to fly "High Performance" (over 200 HP) you need a checkout.

Also, insurance regulations prevent people from getting in over their heads.

As for part two...Why can't we? Well we could. However, we have people who don't see a problem, others don't care, and some do not think anyone has any business telling them what they can or cannot do.

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The only way I see it is that this problem will continue to get worse until major changes are made. The visibility of swooping at the DZ combined with just flat out human nature is going to push alot of eager pilots into canopies that they shouldn't be under.

Yep on both counts.

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Doing nothing is immune to the problem at hand, and for me personally, I'm sick and tired of the yearly low timer swoop incident. I am embarassed that I was one and because of being able to get up and walk away from it - I feel as though I can help that next prospect to understand that there is nothing wrong with progressing slowly through the canopy progression...

The bold is the key....Why did you do it? Would you have listend before? I talk to a bunch of folks that hammer....Some still refuse to admit that they were over their heads. Some blame traffic, turbulence...ect. The ones that do admit it, I ask them "What could I or anyone have told you before that would have made you listen?" The number one answer is "Nothing, I would not have listened."

So, how can you make them listen...sometimes it is only by them surviving such ordeal that makes them believe.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[billvon 2,402]

>Don't make it advice, make it VERY real to them. You show the failed
> hook in my terms, and it becomes very very real to them. Harp on
>the statistics, show pics of compound fractures . . .

Doesn't work. I've tried.

"You're not ready for that canopy; you're going to kill yourself."
"No, I'm not. I've landed it 10 times so far and I'm fine."
"You can't stand it up!"
"I usually stand it up. I saw XXX fall down and he has 2000 jumps."
"You can't flat turn it!"
"You only have to flat turn when you make a mistake; I won't. I'm not stupid."
"Remember Joe YYY? He's dead now, and he had more experience than you."
"Joe YYY screwed up. He turned too low; I won't turn too low. Simple."
"You don't have any medical insurance. You can't afford to screw up."
"I won't screw up."
"Everyone says that."
"What are you, my mother?"

I've had this conversation several times. They are immune to advice. Which is why (I think) some form of mandatory education will eventually become necessary.

[kallend 1,632]

"Skydiving is crazy - you'll kill yourself" "No I won't"

"Who except an idiot jumps out of a perfectly good airplane?" "They aren't perfectly good"

etc. etc.

Why draw the line where you want it and not where the sensible (aka whuffo) members of society want it?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Agreed. Which is why I think that the very first step we have to take is to create a canopy coach rating, with a syllabus, standards of performance and materials for use by the coach to teach HP canopy flight. Make it optional at first. If that doesn't fix the problem, make it mandatory at some point, like water training. If that doesn't fix the problem, make it mandatory _and_ add wingload restrictions until they get the training.

We've had this conversation many times in the past year, and what Bill suggests will have the best return on effort. Based solely on fatalities, the various proposed BSRs would not have prevented most of the 141 accidents I catalogued. OTOH, training people how to deal with canopy traffic, off DZ landings, or when not to worry about being downwind anymore would give huge improvements with the lowtimers.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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"Many students are immune to such advice."

That is crap in my book. Don't make it advice, make it VERY real to them.

Doesn't work. The problem jumpers fall into 1 of 2 categories.

1) They are aware of the risks, realize they are pushing the limits too far, but feel the return (being cool) is worth the risk.

2) They don't think it will happen to them.

I had a student I trained hook it in. He didn’t have very many jumps and was flying a canopy too small for him. They pulled the plug several days later. Fortunately this was after I had left the DZ. He wouldn’t listen to advice. Didn’t matter how you put it to him, his mind was made up and nothing you could say would change it.

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Based solely on fatalities, the various proposed BSRs would not have prevented most of the 141 accidents I catalogued. OTOH, training people how to deal with canopy traffic, off DZ landings, or when not to worry about being downwind anymore would give huge improvements with the lowtimers.

Which is exactly the point of the BSR. Either they get the education and training, or they are limited to a conservative downsizing chart. How do you suggest they either get the education and training or downsize conservatively with out a BSR? The current system isn’t doing it.

Derek

[kelpdiver 2]

I think all the energy spent on the BSR thinking should be redirected onto the improvement in canopy training. It doesn't make sense to have this carrot and stick routine implemented if one part doesn't even exist yet.

I know - there are lots of warm and fuzzy ideas about what could be done, but that's a far cry from an actual curriculum.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I think all the energy spent on the BSR thinking should be redirected onto the improvement in canopy training. It doesn't make sense to have this carrot and stick routine implemented if one part doesn't even exist yet.

I know - there are lots of warm and fuzzy ideas about what could be done, but that's a far cry from an actual curriculum.

Several exist.

Derek

[marks 0]

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That is crap in my book.

well in my book. that says you have no experiance as an instructor.

you miss ONE! thing, that student is going to remind you.

[Zenister 0]

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I'd be willing to bet that skydivers would be against ANY new BSR.

it is certainly possible... and is both the advantage and the disadvantage of a democratic system...

however unlike an 'official' governmental system, skydiving is a voluntary, recreational activity.. if the membership is OK with the current levels of risk, responsibility, over sight and the resulting fatality ratio in skydiving under the current BSRs then so be it..

if the USPA adopts (or chooses not to adopt) BSRs that the majority of members do not agree with, it might be time to start another organization one that serves the needs and desires of its members and jump at DZs that fit your PERSONALLY acceptable level of risk and oversight..

guidelines and course structures are wonderful things, and the advance and dissemination of skydiving information is something the USPA should always encourage... but leave the actual decision about relative risk up to the individual pilot and the DZ's (and therefore DZOs/ST&As) locally...

then you can 'vote' with your patronage...

to much of a "safety nazi" culture? to much 'reckless indulgence'? Simple answer, Find a DZ that fits your personal preference and acceptable risk level and see what the 'membership' really wants in the way of mandatory regulation...

will people still die? of course.. that will never change..but its your life... live it, risk it, lose it in the manner YOU choose

the information is out there... more and more every day... its up to YOU to seek it... as it should be...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[kallend 1,632]

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I'd be willing to bet that skydivers would be against ANY new BSR.

Derek

Once you have made the decision to entertain yourself by jumping from airplanes in flight, all the rest is secondary.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

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"Skydiving is crazy - you'll kill yourself" "No I won't"

"Who except an idiot jumps out of a perfectly good airplane?" "They aren't perfectly good"

etc. etc.

Why draw the line where you want it and not where the sensible (aka whuffo) members of society want it?

I know about hook turns and canopy control....So I am not a whuffo to canopy flight.

A whuffo has no idea about skydiving.

Big difference.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[kallend 1,632]

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"Skydiving is crazy - you'll kill yourself" "No I won't"

"Who except an idiot jumps out of a perfectly good airplane?" "They aren't perfectly good"

etc. etc.

Why draw the line where you want it and not where the sensible (aka whuffo) members of society want it?

I know about hook turns and canopy control....So I am not a whuffo to canopy flight.

A whuffo has no idea about skydiving.

Big difference.

You don't have to be a skydiver to know that staying on the ground is safer than jumping out of a plane at 14,000ft. You just choose to draw the line of acceptable risk in a different place than a whuffo.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Ron 7]

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You don't have to be a skydiver to know that staying on the ground is safer than jumping out of a plane at 14,000ft. You just choose to draw the line of acceptable risk in a different place than a whuffo.

Maybe, but making choices think you know something about a sport you know nothing about is stupid.

A whuffo who does not know of the saftey equipment or training is NOT qualified to make an informed choice.

A swooper who does swoop is nothing like a whuffo.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[freakydiver 0]

"The bold is the key....Why did you do it? Would you have listend before? I talk to a bunch of folks that hammer....Some still refuse to admit that they were over their heads. Some blame traffic, turbulence...ect. The ones that do admit it, I ask them "What could I or anyone have told you before that would have made you listen?" The number one answer is "Nothing, I would not have listened."

--

See now I disagree. Ten years ago when the swoop was still in its infancy, there really wasn't much advice going around - now, maybe this isn't true and I just didn't get lucky with someone to give me the appropriate advice. But honestly, if someone that I respected on the DZ came up to me and said, hey I see that you are learning to land fast, you may want to progress through high performance landings in a slow and controlled method - I believe I would have listened. At 120 jumps when I made my err in judgement, no one had ever said to me, swooping is difficult, it can kill you, you can break legs, etc. I had never seen a really bad landing. I had never met anyone that femured or worse. I took a look at people swooping in their Stilettos and thought to myself how the hell hard can it be. I never once thought about setup patterns or altitude, or outs, or anything along those lines.

It was only after I made my mistake that someone on my DZ back then came up to me and suggested that double fronts might be the way to go for awhile. Then start adding in slow turns.

Honestly, there is no excuse for someone today in the sport of skydiving to NOT have that information. They should realize that people get in over their heads by loading up their canopies. They should have seen videos of mistakes and the outcomes. I didn't have that luxury as the sport of swooping was very young at the time. There is simply no way anyone can say that it wouldn't have an affect on the average student.

Bill, I realize that you must tell young timers time and time again the things you quoted and some of them don't listen. I think you are missing the point though. Some of them DO listen which is what makes any of it worth it. Hook you too - you know that at least one person out there took your advice to heart. Sure one didn't, but to simply stop giving out the advice is irresponsible in my book. To stop working towards making those lessons available to students of the sport is also very irresponsible.

Sure there will always be the average joe that just doesn't get it, he'll be fine on that canopy etc etc etc. There is only so much we as a society can do, but to do nothing is not the answer.

I have a prime example. There was a young skydiver that came to Colorado and really started progressing fast in the canopy flight realm. The BIG deifference here was that this particular individual became a dedicated student to canopy flight becuase people basically told him, hey man, if you are going to go big, learn how to do it correctly. I've watched this individual learn learn learn, and learn some more. People can and will become receptive to the idea that canopy flight can and will kill if it is ground into them enough imho. In a matter of three years this particular jumper progressed into the high end canopy world and did it in a very safe manner because he had the right advice around him and people made him realize that he needed to listen to it. For the one guy that doesn't listen, I'd be willing to bet there's ten out there that will...

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[freakydiver 0]

I do have plenty of experience as an instructor in many other disciplines. Sure the student will make mistakes, but given the proper education they do it a lot less than one that is left to chance. I've seen this numerous times in very dangerous environments. I don't care what sport you are talking about, backcountry snow travel in high slide danger is no laughing matter. My students realize this and more times than not err on the side of caution.

Again - we don't show current AFF students videos of hook-ins do we? We don't show them interviews of people that had to deal with the aftermath, do we?? We don't show them the correct way to progress in the high performance realm now do we???

-- (N.DG) "If all else fails – at least try and look under control." --

[billvon 2,402]

>Why draw the line where you want it and not where the sensible
>(aka whuffo) members of society want it?

Because I know more about skydiving than whuffos do.