Work as TI

[Andy9o8 0]

Watch it, monkey boy - your case is being reviewed, too.

[hairymango 0]

Please tell us you are going to retire at 10,000 posts because then we only have to hear another 682 rants from you

[Andy9o8 0]

Pfft; I'm not even half warmed up.

[slcooper 0]

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"And I am not saying the OP is like that"

Must have missed the above line when you read the response. If I have misjudged, I apologize, but let us know why would you come to the States for three month's? The appearance is:
1. Get experience (Jump Numbers)
2. Make money in the U.S.
Is there work where you live?

Unfortunately money is the bottom line in many of these situations. I can not say I blame you or that I may not do the same. The bottom line and at the end of the day we all know what the deal is, we have seen it over and over again. If it makes you feel better there probably is some DZO's that will hire you and let you make as much as you can. If you make the effort to do it the legal way then so be it. Let us know your motives and plans so we do not have to make assumptions based on loosely asked questions.

You forgot to mention sleep with many, many American women who are impressed with his foreign accent

Why would anyone jump out of a perfectly good airplane? Cause the door was open!

[Andy9o8 0]

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You forgot to mention sleep with many, many American women who are impressed with his foreign accent

No, that's Shah's job. And Copland's, I think.

[hairymango 0]

I bet your a real sweety pie in real life, but then on dz.com you can't help but gallop around on that horse of yours.

[teason 0]

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That was it. It was only after further comments back and forth between him and others, clearly implying that he probably intended to work under the table, with others tacitly encouraging him to do so, that my own commentary took the further direction it did.

Yeah, but your comments were a bit on the harsh side showing a bias against the foreigner at the mere thought of working illegally. It seemed like an attempt to be witty and cruel at the same time.

Skydiving is in a big way part of the underground economy. Many packers are paid cash under the table and I suspect some instructors are as well, whether they are US citizens or not. If you're going to be offended by a foreigner working under the table does that mean you are equally offended by US citizen working under the table too? If so be careful who packs for you and make sure they claim their income on their taxes otherwise your bias is hypocritical.

As for the OP. The US is a miserable place to work if you are a foreigner. I've heard of Canadians who aren't even allowed to mow their lawns on properties they own in the US.

I personally know a Canadian who works in Canada for a parent company in the US (obviously legal). When she crossed the border to attend a conference, she was turned away. She had to spend $5000-$7000 on an American Lawyer to be allowed in. The Border Service was in the wrong but the US culture has become overly protectionist.

Andy9o8 is a prime example of the emotion that many Americans feel at the mere thought of foreigners getting work whether the US workforce can service the need or not.

It would be one thing if Americans were being past over for cheaper foreign labour creating unfair competition but that's not the case.

It's a case of businesses desperately trying to fill a shortage. They would pick Americans first but that's not always possible and obtaining Visas for foreigners is a costly odyssey of epic proportions.

Protectionist attitudes leave their hands tied and their businesses suffer.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Andy9o8 is a prime example of the emotion that many Americans feel at the mere thought of foreigners getting work whether the US workforce can service the need or not.

Actually, no. I'm about as anti-xenophobic as they come. I'd like to see any person be able to immigrate to the US if they wanted to, without quotas; and I'd like to see very liberal attitudes toward non-citizens coming to the US to work. In my book, that's what the USA is supposed to be all about. I think protectionism is idiotic.

I despise the way that Hispanic, and other non-European/non-Caucasian immigrants are vilified in this country. And I despise what I see as American society's inexcusable, hypocritical double-standard when it comes to giving a winking pass to white Europeans. Want Europeans to be able to work here in the skydiving industry? Well, so do I - believe it or not, as much as you do. And I'll be all for it, just as soon as this country's (and this website's) racist hypocrites stop demonizing the brown people who come here for the grand privilege of picking our vegetables and cleaning our toilets.

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She had to spend $5000-$7000 on an American Lawyer

See? Every cloud has a silver lining.

[normiss 622]

So we should welcome the illegals with open arms?
I'd rather see the dz's here NOT be shut down by the government for hiring illegals.
Maybe it's just me.


I have to pay taxes on my income, why shouldn't everyone else?

[mjosparky 3]

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It's a case of businesses desperately trying to fill a shortage. They would pick Americans first but that's not always possible and obtaining Visas for foreigners is a costly odyssey of epic proportions

I think you are wrong on this point. The unemployment rate is at its highest in something like 30/40 years. Many of my neighbors are looking for any kind of a job to pay the rent and feed the baby.

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Skydiving is in a big way part of the underground economy. Many packers are paid cash under the table and I suspect some instructors are as well, whether they are US citizens or not.

This is not directed toward the OP because I do not know his intentions. There is one point that people seem to pass over. It is against the law for foreign nationals to visit the US on a tourist visa and then start working. It is also against the law for the employer to hirer him/her and again it is against the law to pay them “under the table” regardless of nationality. Where do you draw the line about turning a blind eye because they are part of the “community of skydiving”? Tax fraud, car thief or maybe armed robbery? We are a society of laws that is becoming more and more lawless. Do we let people obey only those laws that are convenient or that they agree with? Do you think “accountability” is only for other then our group? Do you think that this attitude is part of the problem or part of the solution? We all know what is right and what is wrong but do we always to what we know to be right?
Just something to think about.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[davelepka 4]

After I wrote this -

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Maybe he'll get something, maybe he'll get nothing, but there's no way he's going to take work away from an established, deserving, local staff member.

- it occured to me that it might be taken the wrong way.

When it references a 'deserving' local staff member at a DZ, that is not to say that only local people are deserving, and that all foriegners are not.

What it means is that any visting DZ employee, especially one who comes in mid-season, is not going to take work away from a local staff member who 'deserves' his slot on the rotation due to his dedication and reliability as an employee.

A visiting instructor may indeed take work away from a local instructor who is an alcoholic dirtbag that the DZO uses only when he is 100% out of other options. In that case, the local doesn't 'deserve' his slot anyway, and you can't blame the visiting jumper for taking work away from them.

[teason 0]

Well you're right, you can't pick and choose which laws are ok to break, that was really my point.
I was trying to demonstrate that some have an expectation of foreign nationals to respect US labour laws while some US citizens don't. I believe that it shows that the comments about labour laws and condemnation are driven more by xenophobia than belief in the laws of the land.

As for business struggling in a labour shortage, that was more in reference to seasonal small DZs. It is difficult for a small Cessna DZ to find full time TIs. A TI looking for full time employment will often not look twice at a small DZ so we have to rely on part time staff. It makes it extremely difficult to grow. I realize that I own a Canadian DZ (which may cause me to misread the US situation) but I have found incredible difficulties in hiring Canadian TIs. The resulting shortage led me to investigate Visa requirements which, while easier than the US, is a bureaucratic nightmare.

Recruiting from the US resulted in an extremely mediocre response. 1 respondent from the US is 5 years. Not indicative of a large segment of laid off TIs begging for work.

The problem is that even in a poor economy, some markets which rely on staff with specialized skill sets will often still find a shortage on staff. Just because the overall jobless rate is high doesn't mean you can hire someone off the street to throw drogues.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[billvon 2,435]

>Taking New TI's from over seas who are coming here strictly to make as
>much money as possible is not good for the sport.

_Anyone_ who sees tandem purely as a way to make as much money as possible is, usually, not good for the sport. Sadly most of the people of this sort I see at US dropzones are americans.

[timmyfitz 0]

I'm in agreement with Andy and mjo. Nearly everyone else has found a nice way to justify breaking laws, especially Dave.

[skybytch 259]

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I despise the way that Hispanic, and other non-European/non-Caucasian immigrants are vilified in this country. And I despise what I see as American society's inexcusable, hypocritical double-standard when it comes to giving a winking pass to white Europeans. Want Europeans to be able to work here in the skydiving industry? Well, so do I - believe it or not, as much as you do. And I'll be all for it, just as soon as this country's (and this website's) racist hypocrites stop demonizing the brown people who come here for the grand privilege of picking our vegetables and cleaning our toilets.

Winner winner chicken dinner!!

[davelepka 4]

Well, it does take two to tango, so for every instructor being paid under the table, both foriegn and domestic, there's a DZO who's willing to oblige.

Are you aware of the payment arrangements between the DZO of every DZ you've ever jumped at and every employee of that DZ? There may very well be staff who are skirting their fiscal responsibilities and a DZO who is complicit, and here you are spending your money at said DZ. If you lie down with dogs, what does that make you?

I'm pretty sure that the IRS gives you a pass on any job you have where you make less than $600 per year, so at $30 per tandem you could do 20 tandems before you're subtracting anything from the coffers of the IRS.

If you're going to rally against the outrage of tax cheats and immigrant labor, I hardly think that a kid from Europe who wants to get his TI rating and see the states for a month or two is the place to focus your attention.

[timmyfitz 0]

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Well, it does take two to tango, so for every instructor being paid under the table, both foriegn and domestic, there's a DZO who's willing to oblige.

Are you aware of the payment arrangements between the DZO of every DZ you've ever jumped at and every employee of that DZ? There may very well be staff who are skirting their fiscal responsibilities and a DZO who is complicit, and here you are spending your money at said DZ. If you lie down with dogs, what does that make you?

I'm pretty sure that the IRS gives you a pass on any job you have where you make less than $600 per year, so at $30 per tandem you could do 20 tandems before you're subtracting anything from the coffers of the IRS.

If you're going to rally against the outrage of tax cheats and immigrant labor, I hardly think that a kid from Europe who wants to get his TI rating and see the states for a month or two is the place to focus your attention.

This all just sounds like another excuse to justify someone(TI or DZO) to skirt the law. Just my opinion. Take it as such. No reason to get upset.

[billvon 2,435]

>Many of my neighbors are looking for any kind of a job to pay the rent and
>feed the baby.

While I agree, I also think such people would generally make poor tandem masters.

>Where do you draw the line about turning a blind eye because they are part
>of the “community of skydiving”?

It should be at the same point that we "draw the line" at paying a US tandem master and not reporting their wages to the IRS. Both are illegal. Many DZ's don't care, though.

[airtwardo 6]

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>Many of my neighbors are looking for any kind of a job to pay the rent and
>feed the baby.

While I agree, I also think such people would generally make poor tandem masters.

>Where do you draw the line about turning a blind eye because they are part
>of the “community of skydiving”?

It should be at the same point that we "draw the line" at paying a US tandem master and not reporting their wages to the IRS. Both are illegal. Many DZ's don't care, though.

And then there's packers, pilots, the guy who pick up the trash...

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[robskydiv 0]

Just an observation, Is this guy displacing someone who had hoped to find work as a TI? If I'm not mistaken, Hawaii could use more TI's also. Just some thoughts...

[pchapman 262]

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I despise the way that Hispanic, and other non-European/non-Caucasian immigrants are vilified in this country. And I despise what I see as American society's inexcusable, hypocritical double-standard when it comes to giving a winking pass to white Europeans.

A very good point.
But despite the awkward skin color issue, I think there's also a concern with value systems, numbers of people, and socio-economic background.

So if someone meets an illegal from France, in other words a guy from another wealthy industrialized democracy, a person isn't going to worry that there must be are millions more French people who want to show up, so that soon you'll be walking into stores unable to read the signs and seeing nothing but cheese, wine, and long pieces of bread to buy.

My DZO (in Canada) did once look into hiring Mexicans as packers, and we did have a couple guys from the ex Soviet Union over for the past season as TIs. It did give the DZO a steady base of TI's every day of the week, but of course cut into the jumps local TI's did.

[mjosparky 3]

Again I am not pointing the finger at anyone or any one group. I will leave that up to you.

1. No, I do not know the details of DZO/staff payments at DZ’s I have jumped at. But on the other hand I do not know that information at the many restaurants, hotels and carwash businesses I used last year. I do not think that qualifies me as lying down with doges.

2. I speak from experience, 3 audits, the IRS does not give a pass on anything. Absolutely nothing. The employer is not required to issue a 1099 on wages less than $600 in a year but the employee still has the responsibility to report the amount on his/her filing for that year. Disclaimer: These figures are several years old and may have changed, but I am sure the requirement still hold.

3. I didn’t “rally against the outrage of tax cheats and immigrant labor”. I didn’t even offer an opinion on the subject. I simply pointed out that some of the thing that you and others advocate is illegal. We both know this country has a “problem” in illegal immigrants”. I don’t have an answer that will help so maybe you have one?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mjosparky 3]

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>Many of my neighbors are looking for any kind of a job to pay the rent and
>feed the baby.

While I agree, I also think such people would generally make poor tandem masters.

Shame on you Bill, you are usually about this type of reply.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[JohnDeere 0]

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>Taking New TI's from over seas who are coming here strictly to make as
>much money as possible is not good for the sport.

_Anyone_ who sees tandem purely as a way to make as much money as possible is, usually, not good for the sport. Sadly most of the people of this sort I see at US dropzones are americans.

Care to explain that Bill? Why is it so sad that most people at DZ's are Americans?

Nothing opens like a Deere!

You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers!

[tetra316 0]

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>Taking New TI's from over seas who are coming here strictly to make as
>much money as possible is not good for the sport.

_Anyone_ who sees tandem purely as a way to make as much money as possible is, usually, not good for the sport. Sadly most of the people of this sort I see at US dropzones are americans.

Care to explain that Bill? Why is it so sad that most people at DZ's are Americans?

Nice try, you left out "this sort". And I agree. The money grabbers tend to be Americans. The foreigners all have loads of money from other sources anyways