EVERYONE should barrel roll.

[champu 1]

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I backtrack after HD only to keep my eyes on the group and to slow my deceleration until the pack clears, then half roll to belly and a normal track. RW - belly to earth the entire breakoff and track.

This is generally expected of participants from the organizers of large-ish freefly jumps, and I recommend anyone who freeflies with others to get in the habit of doing it sooner rather than later. This is more a matter of "look where you're going as you leave the center" than "barrel roll during break off" though.

[billvon 2,400]

There is nothing wrong with barrel rolling during a track - provided it is planned for and you have the altitude to do it. It is NOT a 'quick thing to do to be safe' since it sacrifices altitude and distance for temporary instability.

On bigways they are in general a very bad idea because separation, predictability and heading/fallrate maintenance are critical during the breakoff. They are a better idea on small dives where it's easier to keep track of other people, and the results of deviating from a straight track are minimized.

[Will_Evo 0]

Well Dave ya got me here, that was a really good explanation and I sincerely agree with you. I will try and incorporate looking over my shoulder and tracking , the thing that got me was, 'what would I do if someone was there when I barrel rolled'....well Dave...I guess just go low, which like you said, is not a good alternative. Thanks for the more gracious reply, just was defending what I was taught by someone with more experience than I. . See, even '100 jump wonders' can admit they are wrong haha but seriously, I really do appreciate the more direct r and non condescending notation on that last reply. Blue Skies.

-Evo

Zoo Crew

[Psychonaut 0]

Going low after seeing someone above you isn't a good alternative?
Uh, what others are there? Sure you can reply and talk about how separation and other things should have been planned and executed better but that's in the past and you can't go back and alter things. In the moment, I don't see any other 'alternatives' and I wouldn't have a problem going lower after seeing someone above me.

Stay high pull low

[brettski74 0]

You'll never see this on large organized jumps. The people who are invited on such jumps know better. I have, however, seen people attempt to do this on moderate sized jumps thinking that they are clearing their air. What I observed of those people however was:

They had by far the shortest and steepest track of anyone in the group.

They had poor heading control in their track as a result of the roll

The roll happened in perhaps half a second. That's the entire roll. They'd be lucky if they had half that time to scan the sky above. If you can spot a solitary person in the sky in less than a quarter second while the entire world is whizzing through your field of view, you're clearly not human.

They had to spend tome getting stable again after the roll, while I was still far above them, still tracking and finding lots of empty space to deploy.

Pretty much everything that's already been said will happen when you try this. I have seen this happen every time I see someone try this. It's just a bad idea. I know you think you have a new and wonderful idea for break-off safety, but it's not new, nor is it better. It's been tried. It really doesn't work. It creates new problems and it doesn't really improve anything.

[davelepka 4]

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Going low after seeing someone above you isn't a good alternative?
Uh, what others are there? Sure you can reply and talk about how separation and other things should have been planned and executed better but that's in the past and you can't go back and alter things. In the moment, I don't see any other 'alternatives' and I wouldn't have a problem going lower after seeing someone above me.

He was responding to my post. He mentioned that at the end of his track, he stops - then barrel rolls - then pulls. I asked what he would do if he saw someone above him, and the answer was to just go low. When he said that was a bad idea, he was refering to going low in general, which is a bad idea. In the case of a jumper above you in freefall (with you falling straight down at pull time) going low is the only option, and you have to do it, but it still sucks.

My suggestion was to check over your shoulder during the track, so if you should see someone up there, you can just bump your heading over a bit and keep the track going. If you see somone while you're mid-track, a heading change, and slight extension of the track should get you clear. End result is you pull more-or-less 'on time'.

[Psychonaut 0]

Right right, didn't go back enough in the convo. Cheers.

Stay high pull low

[burtonjm 0]

We typically organize 10-15 way tracking dives on the weekends. The organizer always tells us to barrel roll before we pull. What's your thought on doing a barrel roll before pulling specifically in a tracking dive?

This shit, right here, is OK

[davelepka 4]

I don't see how being on a tracking dive changes anything. Once you break off, the content of the freefall is irrelevant.

The fact remains that the quailty of your scan above you during a barrel roll is going to be very low. Picture a barrel roll in your mind, the manuver is quick, and you typically have to look where you are going (as in your eyes are leading the roll, looking in the direction of the roll). As such, I can't see how you could do a good job of scanning anything during a barell roll.

Let's take it one step further, even if you do see someone, how much will you see? Can you ascertain enough during a barell roll to see the porximity, direction and speed of the person above? Or is it more likely you'll just get a glance of a jumper? You'll know someone is there, but not much else (which is good, but more info would be better).

What do you do now? Someone is up there going somewhere, but that's all you know. You could keep tracking, but then what? Are you going to throw another barrel role to re-check your airspace? Or are you going to start looking over your shoulder to see if it's clear? My guess is that you'll start looking over your shoulder.

Why not skip the 'tricks' and just start by looking over your shoulder. Once your track is established, you can look over each shoulder for several seconds, and get a good look on your own time-table, not the time-table of a barrel roll.

Now if you do see someone, keep looking and figure out just how close they are, and where they are going. use this info to adjust your heading, and find a clear patch of sky. The whole time this has been going on, you've been maintaining your track speed and angle.

The problem with all of these 'experts' suggesting a barrel role is that they don't ever think it through to the next step, what do you do if someone is there? The quality of any type of 'safety' manuver is in the action taken when safety is at risk.

For example, if I told you to stick your hands in between your ass and your legstraps right after throwing the PC, in order to prevent you from grabbing the risers and fouling the openings or breaking a finger, it would work. The canopy would open by iteslf, and the risers would never try to rip off your fingernail. For that prupose, it works, but if you have a mal, now your hands are stuck under your legstraps, and you've created a hurdle to cutting away and pulling your reserve.

(Nobody ever do this with your hands, it was an example, and not a real suggestion)

The barell roll is the same idea. It's cool trick, and looks slick on video, but in reality it provides a comprimised view overhead, and very little info about anyone who might be up there. When the airspace is clear, it works like a charm, but when you do see someone, it's less than ideal.

Break off at a reasonablle altitude. Choose a clear heading and light the afterburners. Once you have done that, you have 6 or 7 seconds of free time. Look over each shoulder at your leisure, and see what's up. You have the time to get a good look on each side, and the momentum (and good info from your check) to move to a different part of the sky if you see somebody.

[Butters 0]

Just waiting for someone to be barrel rolling or back tracking and go through a canopy ... I've experienced premature pullers that I've had to avoid. If I had been barrel rolling or back tracking I likely would have gone through their canopies. You should be paying attention to (and avoiding) what's below you and let those above you pay attention to (and avoid) you.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[billvon 2,400]

> What's your thought on doing a barrel roll before pulling specifically in
> a tracking dive?

I don't see much difference; you're still trying to get away from people to safely deploy your parachute. And again, it's not a big deal at all if you want to do that, provided you build in the additional altitude to allow for more maneuvers during the dive.

[riggerpaul 1]

Maybe the better approach would be to learn tracking before the skill is actually needed.

As I see it, if you look, barrel rolling or otherwise, and find someone in a bad place, then the tracking has failed in the first place, since the whole point of tracking is to get you some clear air for deployment.

So maybe our approach to the whole problem needs some modification.

Tracking is such an essential skill that it really should be a prerequisite for the rest of one's formation skydiving progression.

It might work something like this - (please don't just pick on me for deficiencies in this sequence. This is just a first cut at how we might better approach the whole problem. I don't mean to say that this is ready for prime time. It is meant only to encourage more discussion.)

First, get a briefing from a good tracker and then do some solo tracking to work on the skill.

Then do some 2-ways so you have someone who can maybe tell you about what they saw. It would be good if one of the 2 people can track well enough to make both safe. At some point, get a coach or an instructor or someone else who knows about tracking to evaluate the tracking.

When that evaluator thinks you track well enough for a bigger formation, you can then be confident that you have the skills needed to make the bottom end of the freefall as safe as you can.

It just seems to me that this whole problem of what to do when someone is tracking poorly indicates that we are moving too quickly into bigger formations without insisting that the participants have demonstrated the required skills.

And, just to be clear, even a 2-way is too big if neither person can find his way to some clear air for deployment.

Just this weekend I heard a newer jumper complain that his solo skydive was boring. What that says to me is that he missed a great opportunity to work on skills that can always be made better, like tracking.

[Harvdogg 1]

I just have two thoughts on this...

1: Isn't this an issue that could easily be solved with adequate separation and planned jump order?

and

2: If waving off isn't enough for the person above you to give you space then what is your option upon finding them in your barrel roll at track altitude other than pulling low or changing your track direction? These two options seem more dangerous to me.
Maybe the best option for you would be to take the initiative in assuring a safe jump order and separation for your load and if that still leaves you concerned then track high... finish your track and wave off for 500-1000 feet above your planned pull altitude...
Just my 2 cents

[Psychonaut 0]

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1: Isn't this an issue that could easily be solved with adequate separation and planned jump order?

You can't go back in time and change events real-time.
Do you have a time machine?

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2: If waving off isn't enough for the person above you to give you space then what is your option upon finding them in your barrel roll at track altitude other than pulling low or changing your track direction? These two options seem more dangerous to me.
Maybe the best option for you would be to take the initiative in assuring a safe jump order and separation for your load and if that still leaves you concerned then track high... finish your track and wave off for 500-1000 feet above your planned pull altitude...
Just my 2 cents

So you're saying going low is more dangerous than pulling higher than planned?

In my opinion, where I pull is incredibly comfortable and I would have no problem at all going lower, even by 1k. (3k to 2k) if the situation deemed necessary.
I would NOT want to bump my 3k to 4k. I do hop and pops lower than that, c'mon.

Stay high pull low

[Psychonaut 0]

And, if you're suggesting that the entire load bump things up 500-1000k, what does that change? If everyone changes as a whole you have the same issue whether you plan to break at 9k or 3k.

Stay high pull low

[Harvdogg 1]

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You can't go back in time and change events real-time.
Do you have a time machine?

You wouldn't need a time machine if you made smart decisions before you leave the plane.

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So you're saying going low is more dangerous than pulling higher than planned?

In my opinion, where I pull is incredibly comfortable and I would have no problem at all going lower, even by 1k. (3k to 2k) if the situation deemed necessary.
I would NOT want to bump my 3k to 4k. I do hop and pops lower than that, c'mon.

Read what I said before getting all pissy...
I suggested waving off for additional time before your planned pull altitude...

What I suggested was to take every skydiver that was going to be in the air into consideration before exiting the plane, and if you think that somebody would be above you at pull time make the adjustments before exiting the plane.

If you still have concerns that someone would ignore this practice and find their way over you or wouldn't be able to see you then that's a safety concern you or your S&TA should address before people start putting their rigs on.

on a side note I'm sure you know allready that taking it down to 2k like you suggested you'd be confortable with would not be within BSR's for a B license (sec. 2-1 part G)

In summary what my 2 cents were was to plan the skydive so it's safe to begin with as opposed to adding a new skydiving practice to account for a lack of safe planning.

p.s. I do realize that on some skydives especially FF jumps and large tracking dives it is common to barrel roll before pulling but this is planned before getting on the plane and is accounting for skydivers within that group, not for fear of jumpers from another group.

As I said before that is my 2 cents... take it and consider it or ignore it... it was meant to be just that... I don't claim to know everything there is to know about skydiving...

[Psychonaut 0]

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You wouldn't need a time machine if you made smart decisions before you leave the plane.

It doesn't matter! You can't control what happens, not everything goes according to plan. It's life. It's all around you every day. I do my best to keep the servers running strong with no hiccups but shit happens and you have to deal with it when the time comes.

Not saying preparation is worthless, but even with the utmost care and attention to detail when planning, you can't prevent what you don't know is going to happen.

Stay high pull low

[ridestrong 1]

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I just have two thoughts on this...

1: Isn't this an issue that could easily be solved with adequate separation and planned jump order?

and

2: If waving off isn't enough for the person above you to give you space then what is your option upon finding them in your barrel roll at track altitude other than pulling low or changing your track direction? These two options seem more dangerous to me.
Maybe the best option for you would be to take the initiative in assuring a safe jump order and separation for your load and if that still leaves you concerned then track high... finish your track and wave off for 500-1000 feet above your planned pull altitude...
Just my 2 cents

On big way jumps where it is agreed (or goes without saying) that no one is to barrel roll is one thing. But when talking about other jumps such as speed stars and large tracking dives it is not unlikely that some will not make it down to the base or lead tracker and end up above other jumpers at break off. Planning, while necessary, will not always insure that someone doesn't end up above you.

On most tracking dives the jumpers track away from anyone that would have exited prior and not likely have anyone below them at pull time, but can more likely have a straggler above them. In this case a barrel roll after scanning ahead and below during track seems reasonable.

On larger speed stars again it is not uncommon to have a straggler above you at break off. In this case since you are tracking away from a 'base' it may make more sense to use the look over your shoulder as you track away method.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[davelepka 4]

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Maybe the best option for you would be to take the initiative in assuring a safe jump order and separation for your load and if that still leaves you concerned then track high... finish your track and wave off for 500-1000 feet above your planned pull altitude...

You're really missing the point. If you break off high, and then stop short to wave off like a madman, you've just neutralized any benefit you may have gotten from the early break off. Your seperation from the group remains the same as if you had gone with the original break off plan.

The #1 thing you can do is track hard and fast for as long as humanly possible. If you break off high, track further. Don't stop and waste your time, just keep going.

I'll return the concept of multi-tasking - while you track, check your airspace both above and below. When you're done tracking and you flare out to pull, sit up and wave off at that time, then dump.

See? Track AND check your airspace. Flare out of your track AND wave off. It keeps you moving and on target. After break off, you are always either tracking or pulling, the two most important things you can do at that time. Everything else you need to do can be accomplished while you are tracking and pulling. To shorten or delay either one is a waste of time and space. Who the hell are you to waste time and space? What would Stephen Hawking say?

If you do see someone, becasue you are already hauling ass in a track, just vector yourself off to the opposite side of your traffic and complete your track.

[Harvdogg 1]

Agreed... There are many situations where a barrel roll during your track is reasonable if not necessary, especially when considering the type of jump and the jumpers involved...

In My Humble Opinion
If an experienced jumper decided they wanted to barrel roll during every track on skydives other than these to feel more safe and comfortable come pull time I feel there's nothing wrong with that, so long as it's not a situation like a big way where doing so would be dangerous for other jumpers,and their pull priorities were:
In order of importance:
1. Pull at the proper altitude
2. Pull at the proper altitude with stability
3. Pull at the proper altitude with stability after barrel rolling to make sure nobody is above you

[Harvdogg 1]

Agree with you also... I'll admit the latter half of that statement was more rediculous than legitimate advice.

[davelepka 4]

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If an experienced jumper decided they wanted to barrel roll during every track on skydives other than these to feel more safe and comfortable come pull time I feel there's nothing wrong with that, so long as it's not a situation like a big way where doing so would be dangerous for other jumpers

Here's the problem with that - very few jumpers can perform a barrel roll while maintaining a max track. Even those that can know that you need to make a quick transition to keep the speed and angle up during the roll. The speed of that transition will comprimise your ability to effectively scan your overhead area.

So a jumper wants to transition to back track, pause, and then go back to belly. The news flash is, that very few jumpers can do that while maintaining a max track.

You need to remember that most tracking dives are not conducted at max track. The pace is generally relaxed from max track, in order to give all involved some manuvering speed relative to the base. Even the shit-hot tracking dives will come up short of a max track. The moral of the story is that what you, or anyone else, can pull off on a tracking dive does not mean that you can do the same while maintianing the speed and angle of a max track.

Regardless of the type of jump, if you are in a group where you cannot look back and see EVERY member of the group tacking in different directions, you need to check your airspace, and the most effective way to do this while maintaining a max track is to stay belly to earth and look over your shoulder.

Guys who insist otherwise are not gaining cool points, they're gaining stupid points. Nobody is watchinhg you track, so showing off isn't impressing anyone but yourself. The smartest move is the one that provides you with the most seperation for the time allowed. Intentionally cutting into that is just dumb.

[timmyfitz 0]

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The #1 thing you can do is track hard and fast for as long as humanly possible. If you break off high, track further. Don't stop and waste your time, just keep going.

I understand your point but it does not apply in all situations. Sometimes tracking should only be done to the extent of getting good separation from your group.

If you have a group in front of you and a group behind you, you could track into their airspace. Of course this would depend on the size of the groups and may also be remedied by more separation at exit time.

But since we do not live in a perfect world, tracking hard and fast for as long as humanly possible may not always be the correct decision.

[kallend 1,623]

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Tracking is such an essential skill that it really should be a prerequisite for the rest of one's formation skydiving progression.

+1

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Rstanley0312 0]

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We typically organize 10-15 way tracking dives on the weekends. The organizer always tells us to barrel roll before we pull. What's your thought on doing a barrel roll before pulling specifically in a tracking dive?

What? I don't get it... I just don't get it. This whole concept does not make any sense. I do not have a ton of jumps and I was just letting those with all the experience handle this as I often do not feel I should dispense advice but this is just to stupid not to say anything.... not your question in specific burton just that this is being taught?

In FF yes back tracking then obviously rolling to your belly is a good skill and one that will be used when doing HD formations but most even asking IMO should just be working on belly right now anyway.

Really? a barrel roll at the end of your track? Is it that hard to look over your shoulder?

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
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