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leapdog

general thoughts on what a demo is

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I was thinking about the National Skydiving Museum event in Deland and wanted to see what some other folks thought.

I have seen some banter about the event and the term demo being thrown around.

I want to start the discussion with what the SIM says a Demo is. From USPA SIM section 7- A demonstration jump, also called a display or exhibition jump, is a jump at a location other than an existing drop zone done for the purpose of reward, remuneration, or promotion and principally for the benefit of spectators. One purpose of USPA is to promote successful demonstration jumps as part of an overall public relations program for the sport.

fact- The event took place on a DZ. Not a location other than an existing drop zone. Deland is an existing drop zone.
Not sure if it is fact- the event was a fund raiser for the museum?

If the second is true by definition this wasn't a benefit to spectators it was a benefit to the museum.

I have a pro rating and have been doing demos all over the south east for 4 years now. I am well aware of what a demo is and how to organize one. Maybe it would be time to update the SIM with the proper verbage if events at drop zones are going to be considered demos and the benefit is to something else other than spectators.

Again I wanted to see thoughts from others.

All thoughts are welcome but lets try to keep the duscussion to people with relavent experience.

I also want to point out that guideline for demos are spelled out in the special provisions manual from the FAA and in section 7 subpart c and d of the sim. A jumper needs to have 50 jumps within the past 12 months and five jumps within the previous 60 days using the same model and size canopy to be used on the demonstration jump.
I saw some photographs of people I recognized that hadn't jumped in two years or longer who were in the event described by some as a demo. Since the event was at a DZ the currency thing doesn't really apply except that the event was called a demo.

I would like to see some thoughts on currency and its appropriateness as it pertains to a demo jump. Not a jump an a dz.

Again this is just a discussion to see the thoughts of others not a bashing session and I don't expect it to turn that way. Educated thoughtful responses are what I'm looking for here.

Thanks

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

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Not sure if it is fact- the event was a fund raiser for the museum?




Half of the price to participate in the jumps went to the museum to buy a (brick, plaque?) with a name on it. So I suppose this would qualify as a fundrasing event.



Were you there and participating? Just want to qualify your statement as fact.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

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If the second is true by definition this wasn't a benefit to spectators it was a benefit to the museum.



It doesnt matter.

As per the definition, it would have to be done off DZ to be a real demo.

Maybe people called it a demo, but it not technically one.
Remster

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One purpose of USPA is to promote successful demonstration jumps as part of an overall public relations program for the sport.



Then it was a successful demo!

I am a skydiver and DeLand is my home dz. I was a spectator that day, along with hundreds of people from the community. There was a constant line of people getting their picture taken with Joe Kittinger or getting a signed copy of his book. (He was quite accommodating and a total rock star!) B|
The RW jumpers put on a great show, forming a circle in the sky with a K in the middle.
The Golden Knights swooped in as a team and thrilled the crowd.
Cheryl Sterns and others worked their magic with the accuracy tuffet.
The Crw dogs were absolutely amazing with their 25 stack.
The skydiving museum was really cool and I was thrilled to be able to view some of the items showing the history of the sport. And the skydiving simulator was badass!
A boy Scout troop even benefited from donations for helping with the parking situation.
Everyone was rubbing their necks from looking up into the sky so much! :ph34r:

It was definitely a special event that brought a lot of spectators out and not a typical weekend at the dz. With the amount of special jumps going on, I don't know where else you could hold something like this other than at an organized dropzone.
She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

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I don't understand. Where experienced jumpers not allowed to jump? Did they suspend normal jump operations for this event? Where the only jumps made pre-organized special event jumps?

Don't Pull Low... Unless You ARE!!!
The pessimist says, "It can't get any worse than this." The optimist says, "Sure, it can."
Be fun, have safe.

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It was definitely a special event that brought a lot of spectators out and not a typical weekend at the dz. With the amount of special jumps going on, I don't know where else you could hold something like this other than at an organized dropzone.


Just to play devils advocate, Somehting like that could be organized off the DZ. They are normally called air shows and happen for 3 days in a row. Usually lots of plane involved. So why not just all skydivers and not all air planes?


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I don't understand. Where experienced jumpers not allowed to jump? Did they suspend normal jump operations for this event? Where the only jumps made pre-organized special event jumps?



I wasn't at the event so Im not sure if anyone else was allowed to jump or not. This brings up another thought. if normal DZ operations were suspended for favor of the invited only jumpers then if could be a demo much like an air show is for air planes.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

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Where experienced jumpers not allowed to jump? Did they suspend normal jump operations for this event? Where the only jumps made pre-organized special event jumps?



There was fun jumping going on. Most of the people who I talked to had about an hour wait between jumps.
She is Da Man, and you better not mess with Da Man,
because she will lay some keepdown on you faster than, well, really fast. ~Billvon

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...for the purpose of reward, remuneration, or promotion and principally for the benefit of spectators.





Despite this being at a 'dropzone location' I would still consider it a demo because it was a 'promotion for benefit' with non-jumping spectators in attendance, that was for the most part above and beyond normal dropzone activities.


I've done similar things, for example jumping a flag and landing in the area next to our swoop pond for a party of spectators that then made a ceremony of receiving that flag and presenting it to the guest of honor...it was at the dropzone and I didn't get paid but I logged it as a demonstration jump because it WAS promotional and it wasn't something I would ordinarily do at the dropzone.










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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While this event was not Pricapally for the benefit of the spectators ( it benefitted the museum) yes spectators were also involved and yes there was stuff going on not normally done at a drop zone.

I can see your point. SO- back to the original question should the definition be changed to inlcude drop zones?

Another question just to play devils advocate. If stuff at demos aren't normally done at drop zones, then how do jumpers get practice in the craft of doing demos? Some of the FAA special provisions I have recieved say that a jumper has to have jumped a flag before if they are going to do it at a demo off the DZ. How does one get a pro rating inthe first place if they don't practice these things on a drop zone?
While it is unusual, it has to be done. My team and I practice at a drop zone before a show and in between to hone and refine skills or try new routines. so they are normally done at DZs as far as my team is concerned.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

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If stuff at demos aren't normally done at drop zones, then how do jumpers get practice in the craft of doing demos?



~I think you answered your own question Leap.

You practice at the dropzone, by doing stuff not 'normally' done at dropzones.

It's not done for 'pay or promotion' but instead with the sole intent of perfecting a performance that hopefully WILL.

It's just 'practice' much like a comp team does...Serious, structured and not something 'every' jumper is doing t the DZ however it's not an 'actual' meet, since there isn't any scoring by judges goin' on, ~it's practice.

I'm a bit behind the power-curve this morning, but did I over look an obvious point regarding the discussion? :)

I personally don't see a need to 'update' the SIM definition because of an event such as this, that to me anyway seems to fall within the current definition/guidelines for the most part. . .am I missing something?










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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Guys,

I don't know who started calling this event at Deland a "Demo" but they should be banned from USPA for saying something so ridiculous.

I was there and I saw CReW Dogs laughing and having a good time while doing three-dimensional 25-way sequential. There is no-way that this could be a "Demo".

We were there first and foremost to do CReW and have fun. Perhaps our jumps somehow managed to represent our part of this wonderful sport in honor of the first group of inductees to the Skydiving Hall of Fame.

Maybe it was just a coincidence that the formation had a large American flag hanging on the bottom of it as well as smoke.
Everyone was also trailing 300 foot ribbons and the people on the ground were hearing a live broadcast from the top of the formation, but that is just the way we do it sometimes.

It was good that the leaders of our sport wanted CReW at this event and I am relieved and amazed that we didn't screw it up since the 30 of us only had an average of 3,800 jumps each for a total of more than 115,000 jumps and over 660 years of experience in both the sport and profession of skydiving. After all we are just a bunch of toadsucking canopy grabbers passing the time untill the beer lamp is lit.

Our out-of-control (apparently un-professional) behavior has already attracted other rogues. Today I recieved an email from a new friend of our community who saw CReW for the first time this weekend. He was really impressed but I think he is either another rebel like us or just crazy. His name is Joe and he claims to have broken the speed of sound in freefall 50 years ago. Maybe he would make a good CReW Dog.

Demonstration jumps are statistically the most dangerous type of legal skydiving mainly because they don't take place at a dropzone. This was at a dropzone so it was not a "Demo".
Whoever labeled this a "Demo" was spreading dangerous mis-information that could get some whuffo injured.
I have launched an investigation into this crime. When the no-good scoundrel is found he/she will be forced to do 4-way with Annie, Stanley and Chico at Nationals this year.

Skydiving is an extreme sport but it is also and always must remain fun. Let us not take ourselves so seriously that we try to deny others the right to be skydivers.

Love you guys,


Mike

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Yes I did answer my own question. I wrote all that to illustrate those things are normally done at drop zones.

My point is this-

The event in deland was not practice. Those were fun (being called demos) jumps that happened to have smoke and flags... with spectators. Thos jumps were not in preaparation for a show but were attempts with the intention of completion for people watching.

BTW-Most DZs have spectators. Those are the people who come with ones who jump tandems.

The missing part is that the definition says Off DZ and for spectator benefit. Niether one of those things were satisfied for the event in Deland.

If a NFL team hires a jump team to land during half time. that is for spectators benfit. It is not a fund raising event. And it is off DZ.

There is a difference. If an event like what happened in Deland is going to be called a demo, then the definition should be changed to include that type of show.


I'm not looking to show right or wrong here or even to say the definition must be changed. The intention of the thread was to invoke a discussion. Call it seminar of sorts. We as team leaders or demo business owners (much like other industries) should have discussions in our field.

Not everything should stay the same forever either, the way to move in a positive direction is to have good discussions about the world we perform in.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

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I guess a line like "...and some other stuff" could be added to the SIM under the sub-heading for Demos, but I really think the broad way it's worded now covers it pretty well.

Besides an actual participant has spoken up and plainly states it wasn't a 'demo' so the point is moot.



Trust me on this one Leapdog...NEVER argue with a Toad-sucker, it's like wrestling with a pig. ;)








In fact maybe "Never argue with a Toad-sucker" IS something that should be added to the SIM! :ph34r:










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I guess a line like "...and some other stuff" could be added to the SIM under the sub-heading for Demos, but I really think the broad way it's worded now covers it pretty well.

Besides an actual participant has spoken up and plainly states it wasn't a 'demo' so the point is moot.

Trust me on this one Leapdog...NEVER argue with a Toad-sucker, it's like wrestling with a pig. ;)


In fact maybe "Never argue with a Toad-sucker" IS something that should be added to the SIM! :ph34r:



Yeah, I know. I'm a Toad Sucker too. Who ever said the event wasn't a demo is right however there are plenty still calling it a demo.

The definition seems specific to me. while it is broad in some respects it isn't in another aspect. Agree to dissagree I guess.

Like I said wasn't looking for right or wrong here. Just trying to get what our industry (jump performers/demo jumpers) players thought.

Good talking with you since our last time over the phone.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

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And the skydiving simulator was badass!



Quick thread diversion....

I'm glad you liked the skydiving simulator! The company I work for developed it. I didn't know they were going to have a set up in Florida until last week. I'm so happy it had a good reception! :)

**************
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return.
~Leonardo da Vinci~

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I don't know if this hasn't already been said, but if USPA's regular liability insurance wouldn't cover the jump, it probably should be considered a demo (and have a separate demo insurance policy). If it's a skydive at an established DZ, I don't think it qualifies for the demo insurance program, and, therefore, should not be considered a demo jump.


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I don't know who started calling this event at Deland a "Demo" but they should be banned from USPA for saying something so ridiculous.



It sounds like there's some awfully strong feelings on both side of this debade... and I just don't understand why this conversation has any importance at all.

Was it a demo? Was it not... Why does it matter? Why is this worth insulting your friends over?

A big jump, with lots of important spectators and media? Sounds kinda like a demo. Does it fit the USPA definition? Maybe not. Does it matter?

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Demonstration jumps are statistically the most dangerous type of legal skydiving mainly because they don't take place at a dropzone. This was at a dropzone so it was not a "Demo".



Location has a big deal with do with why demo's are dangerous, I've certainly done some tight ones. But I also know that it's the pressure of a big crowd watching that leads to an awful lot of poor decisions and injuries. I'm pretty sure that's why some people are calling this a demo, because there was a big crowd. This makes sense to me, whether it fits the legal definition or not.

I do want to ask the same question one more time: Why is this being debated? Who cares?

_Am
__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

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>fact- The event took place on a DZ.

So it's not a demo.

During the 300-way at Eloy, they had lots of spectators. Duffy was announcing. They trucked the spectators in from all over. Bryan Burke was talking about all the money they were planning to make off 'em.

That wasn't a demo either.

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So lets now define what a dropzone is, I have jumped places that are not normally a dropzone as how they are thought of.
I have jumped at places that are only a dropzone for one weekend a year.
Of course all proper NOTAMs are filed and so forth but it is only for fun jumping and locals always show up to spectate and ask alot of whuffo questions.
Experience is a difficult teacher, she gives you the test first and the lesson afterward

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Too bad you didn't make it down to the event Damien, it was a blast.

How about we end this discussion lest we find ourselves with more regulation and less skydiving going on in the world.

Demo is a word. The FAA uses it one way and people use the word every day to describe a million different things.

I recently did some work for a hollywood production and was told I could not list my title as Rigger, even though by FAA definition I am one. I had to use Parachute Packer because 'Rigger' is a reserved word in the hollydork world.

So... The FAA used DEMO, with a described set of parameters that would require us to file a 7711 for. Big deal now they're the end all be all of dictionaries too? We can still DEMONSTRATE our skills and call our jump a DEMONSTRATION OF OUR SKILLS, FOR SHORT A DEMO, even if it isn't a exhibition requiring a Certificate of Authorization. Hey I "demo'ed" a canopy from one of the manufacturers the other day... HOLY SHIT DID I NEED A PRO RATING???

We should be doing everything in our power to promote MORE skydiving, and less RESTRICTION of it.

I don't see there was any real reason to start this discussion Damien.


-a
Abbie Mashaal
Skydive Idaho
Snake River Skydiving
TandemBASE

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>So lets now define what a dropzone is . . .

A location set up for the express purpose of regular (i.e. repeated) skydiving.

Examples:

The military base in Thailand where we did the 400 way - drop zone. Had windblades, medical support, aircraft loading areas, defined landing areas and outs etc. and we planned to make dozens of jumps there.

The new airport in Thailand where we did the mass jump - demo.

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