Shark 0 #101 July 16, 2005 QuoteScott Miller's class does a really good job at explaining how to "split" an LZ so that left and right hand patterns can work together if needed due to merging groups and groups making it back and unable to do a left into the pattern. QuoteI don't think that things like this are taught unless you go to an advanced canopy school and too many people would rather pay their money to fly in the tunnel or on a fancy new doo-dad then on canopy schooling. Your generalizing. We have 3 different landing areas: students and A license holders, the main landing area which requires a B license or higher, and a high performance landing area including swoop pond. Each time I administer a B license test I discuss what a newbie might expect in the main landing area including pattern etiquette and dividing the area. We do not charge extra for this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #102 July 16, 2005 Mark, not everyone is as contentious and does such a complete job of prepping his or her people. I sure if they did there would be less problems in the pattern. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davadikian 0 #103 July 16, 2005 QuoteAt my DZ, the first person down sets the landing direction, so if you want to use the main area you must be prepared for a downwind landing if the first person so sets it. This has always been a problem to me, not landing downwind (I feel I can land without incident in any direction) but that the "first one down sets the pattern". Example, I load my canopy at 1.5, Im not an extremely aggressive pilot I 90 and sometimes 180 degree front riser approach depending on the situation. What has happened many times is Im coming in, Im the FIRST ONE IN THE PATTERN and someone loaded at 2.0 or higher on a xbrace starts his turn at 700 ft or higher and surpasses me but their final is IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION of mine... By this time I am clearly on final. Do I turn low? No of course not but I have heard when walking to the packing area" he was first man down so he set the pattern" this is NOT uncommon. This is also a problem to the canopies above us, now you have 4 people in their pattern following me and 8 people following the other guy. This is why there should be a rule that determines the landing direction that is not stipulative on variables such as whoevers canopy desends faster, or who gets in the pattern first... I have personally seen this exact situation happen to me and others at Deland, Perris, and some other smaller DZ's, And although these I have seen ended without incident as our sport grows and the number of "fun jump-swoopers" increase the probability of this ending in incident increases and will need to be addressed. Last time I was in Z-hills I remember seeing a sign in the loading area that says if no wind land in the direction of the yellow arrow (their tetrahydron). At least this organizes everyone in the same direction and if things change, winds or whatever, everyone landing has access to the same information at the same time. Just my opinion... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 561 #104 July 16, 2005 QuoteActually I think part of the solution is the separate landing areas. Another part of the solution is educating all the jumpers (not just the High Performance pilots) on the right way to fly a pattern and a list of do's and dont's while in the pattern. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Horizontal separation is the key. Different types of canopies should land in different parts of the field. Student landing fields are for students. Pea gravel bowls are for accuracy competitors or those practicing for PRO/exhibition jump ratings. Swoop lanes are for fast canopies. Landing patterns for fast canopies should be off to the side of the normal pattern. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pilotdave 0 #105 July 16, 2005 QuoteAirplanes have outer and inner markers they use to determine where they need to be flying their pattern at, they don't just enter it 1/4 mile out this time and 1 mile out next time... You kidding? The standard pattern entry in the US (it's different in some other countries) is a right turn into a left hand pattern from 45 degrees off the downwind heading, entering downwind halfway down the runway at pattern altitude. In reality, planes enter the pattern from all over. The biggest help for planes is that the pattern is always single file and almost all planes have radios to announce and listen to each other's positions. A small airport could never support a twin otter load of cessnas in the pattern at once without stretching it out 10 miles (or doing it "oshkosh style." Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #106 July 17, 2005 QuoteIm the FIRST ONE IN THE PATTERN and someone loaded at 2.0 or higher on a xbrace starts his turn at 700 ft or higher and surpasses me but their final is IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION of mine... Responsibility in the landing pattern? First agree on the pattern! And in order to agree on the pattern we should find other ways to decide what it is at any given time; other ways than what is used in many places, nowadays. Most decisions about the pattern to follow have built in flaws that will not surface in moderate to strong winds and with everybody flying more or less the same type canopy. Some go a bit faster, some a bit slower but everything is pretty much predictable. It is the mixing of ‘conservative flying’ and ‘high performance flying’ and the type of both canopies and pilots that creates problems, sometimes. Add light winds from various directions (like on an otherwise sunny day, “perfect for skydiving”) and you have your recipe for disaster. Therefore I think every DZ needs a so called ‘tetrahydron’, a wind-arrow to give a clear direction on what the pattern should be, and we DO need one that works. How should it work? 1. It should be visible from way up (say 2000-1500ft) 2. It should move automatically with significant changes in wind direction (say more than eight knots) 3. It should NOT MOVE with slight variations in the wind. (i.e. not work as directly as a windsock or piece of tape on a stick …) 4. It should designate the landing pattern in real time. (It should show the MANDATORY landing direction at all times) All other smart plans have their shortcomings and will invariably still present the risk of low level canopy collisions – killing skydivers. “First-idiot-down” designates the pattern? Since I’m not always going to follow idiots who can’t read the wind I can’t blame you if you don’t do that either… Someone leaving the office / hangar to move the arrow? Yeah, right, that ‘ll be the day… I’m not going to wait for someone to finish his coffee / phonecall / packjob and turn the arrow when it is suddenly gusting 15 knots or more from a different direction than what the arrow shows – even though I’m capable of down wind landings, thank you … So…smart automation is what is called for, me thinks… Since you can’t get your ‘tetrahydron’ ready made at the local hardware-store, you will have to do some “junk-yard-wars-engineering” Our Low Tech Plan – “cunning in its simplicity…”: 1. Get a wheel with half the axis still attached. (We found a beautiful one from an old caravan – it goes without saying that it still should be able to move around on the axis…) 2. Get enough plywood, some bolts, some screws and orange or yellow paint. (we found an old arrow-shaped sign that was used to send cyclists towards the beach restaurant before that place was sold to the new owner…) 3. Build one. (Arrow on the axis + a piece of plywood vertically on the tail of the arrow. Moves to easily? Cut some of that plywood off… The wheel should be heavy enough and big enough to keep the whole set up in equilibrium...) Come on people, at most places there's a reasonable solid mock up - how hard can it be to build such a thing? Ours was constructed from less than $ 20 worth of material… Now all your DZO / DZ-staff need from now on is a big stick to highlight some of the softly spoken words*) for those that suffer from permanent altitude-deafness and show unacceptable behavior in the ‘parachutist landing area’ AND of course we all need a separate landing area for the swoopers – the “skygods area”. That one should have an entry gate and some built in challenges to “keep the kids away until they grow up”. It should be far enough away to not interfere with what else is going on, WHATEVER the wind direction… BTW: Part of my own first jump course is ALWAYS: 1. Look in the direction where you want to turn, ONLY THEN: 2. Pull the toggle down and KEEP LOOKING…. *) “Thou shalt fly the holy pattern as designated by the tetrahydron when landing in the parachutists area!” Thou shalt not let your high performance landing maneuver for the “skygods area” interfere with the “parachutist landing area’s” holy pattern in any way – decisive here is not whether ‘the airspace is clear’, decisive is whether you interfere with the holy pattern - and there it doesn't matter if you complete your maneuver or abort it. JUST DON'T GO THERE! I will personally kick the shit out of you and remove your battered body from the DZ if you choose to ignore this gospel – you’re not allowed to open below two grand either, are you not? If these conditions are met you may do your 90, 180, 270, 360 or even 540 – just stay out of the pattern! Nevertheless - even if this were in place everywhere I can’t help wondering what new ways you all are going to find to hurt or kill yourself anyway … "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreenLight 5 #107 July 17, 2005 FINALLY! Someone who speaks with sense and forthought. Your plan sounds great. I will now print it out and take it over to the manager of our DZ. I'm sure he will at least listen to this proposal as we already have a ‘tetrahydron’. Then he will most likely just tear it up and throw it in my face. That's the way things are done here. After all, it's a lot easier to just keep calling 911 than it is to solve the problem.Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #108 July 17, 2005 Since your profile shows you jump at Perris I find it hard to believe that they don't have some sort of system in place to separate traffic and establish a landing pattern. AFAIK it isn't a small DZ, isn't it? They are planning to remain big, don't they? Keeping the customers alive is always sound business, unless you are an undertaker... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites happythoughts 0 #109 July 17, 2005 QuoteResponsibility in the landing pattern? First agree on the pattern! Yesterday I did 6 jumps at another dz. It was a competition, so most of the teams were not from the home dz. The wind was non-existant or extremely variable. At the beginning of the day, we agreed to land parallel to the beer-line with the dz on our right. We did that for the first 5 jumps. On the 6th, two teams exited on our pass. I am coming in following the established lefthand pattern and landing direction. I am at 100ft on a straight-in final. At the same time, the first-down from the other team is coming from the other direction. Our team (and camera) landed in the established direction. The other team followed down their first man. Their camera (local) followed us. I was not pleased. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,673 #110 July 17, 2005 "Tetrahydron"? Is that some kind of 4-headed lawn sprinkler?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GreenLight 5 #111 July 17, 2005 QuoteThey are planning to remain big, don't they? I have no idea what they plan on doing. All the property around us is for sale and the new housing tracts are coming down the hill at us fast, so who knows how long Perris will even be here. The runway is undergoing a complete refab as is one of the parking lots. The tunnel is going strong but who cares about that? So I guess they plan on being here for a while anyways. As I said. The management has always sided with the swoopers. I'm the one who gets yelled at if I change the patern to into the wind. These guys set the downwind patern in 10mph conditions... Plain crazy... I'm not going to follow them in like that. I try to out hang them when I can but now they want us belly fliers to get out first. They want everything and they get everything. The management here caters to all the stinkin little rich kids. I better go have a beer now.... The heat is getting to me... Sorry if I sound a little angry... I am old... I have old knees... I'd like to keep them working a while longer.Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #112 July 17, 2005 there is another simply answer practiced at most DZ that have a 'first down' policy. If you dont like the landing direction set, LAND OFF.. oh wait, then you might have to walk (or you might beat the guys in the grass back because the 'taxi's at Perris and Eloy are pretty quick...) and might get your rig dusty if you cant stand up your landings... but if the set landing direction bothers you that much you should accept the brief walk and perhaps a few min with 'the brush of shame' and if your not aware enough to tell when someone has set up a DW landing before you commit to the pattern...........____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davadikian 0 #113 July 17, 2005 What about when it happens -like my post 9 or so posts up from here says? Someone is already in the pattern and is about to turn on final all the while someone with a much faster canopy 500ft above him is in the middle of an aggresive 270 and touches down before the lower man. I have no problem landing downwind, crosswind, no wind, across the runway, down the street or wherever. I DO have a problem landing in oncoming traffic. Under perfect circumstances when you have time to make a last minute alternate decision as to where you want to land, what you say IS a solution, but when you have many different canopies traveling at different rates of speed and decent, all flying different landing pattern/types your answer is no solution. Dont take this as a bash on any particular DZ's way of doing things or any particular way of flying your canopy. Its just that things are changing and this sport has always evolved, and that evolution is usually driven by safety. Just my simplistic observations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,673 #114 July 17, 2005 Quote*** but now they want us belly fliers to get out first. They want everything and they get everything. The management here caters to all the stinkin little rich kids. . Maybe the management wants to avoid freefall collisions. Belly fliers should go out first.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 3 #115 July 18, 2005 Quotebut if the set landing direction bothers you that much you should accept the brief walk and perhaps a few min with 'the brush of shame' and if your not aware enough to tell when someone has set up a DW landing before you commit to the pattern Any one who intentionaly sets a down wind pattern in the main landing area is self centered and childish. It is the ego driven act of a someone who has a need to show off. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #116 July 18, 2005 nice assumption but little substance.. quite often its simply the result of a simple wind change between setup and turn or between their landing and yours..... everyone i've seen do an 'intentional' downwinder announced their intention to everyone...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #117 July 18, 2005 Quotenice assumption but little substance.. quite often its simply the result of a simple wind change between setup and turn or between their landing and yours..... everyone i've seen do an 'intentional' downwinder announced their intention to everyone... So how many examples do people need to post before you're willing to admit there might be a real problem here? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Liemberg 0 #118 July 18, 2005 Quote"Tetrahydron"? Is that some kind of 4-headed lawn sprinkler? If it is visible from "way up" and works as designated in my earlier post (points into the wind but doesn't react to every light breeze) I'll settle for a "four headed lawn sprinkler". Hey - the dutch skydivers call their harness a "Harnas" which is - translated back - medieval body armour. Come to think of it, that might be a solution for the modern swooper... not only extra weight to optimize flight characteristics, but also extra body protection for those cool downwinders in the pattern... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zenister 0 #119 July 18, 2005 oh i have no doubt there are a series of problems, and its certainly not just the swoopers causing them as some posters here wish to believe... instead of using this topic to talk about situations, circumstances and how to avoid and prevent them some people here would rather throw out blame and pretend there is some 'evil agenda' on the part of jumpers to hurt one another... that is just silly...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites davadikian 0 #120 July 18, 2005 Quoteits certainly not just the swoopers causing them as some posters here wish to believe... its certainly not just the swoopers causing them as some posters here wish to believe... Of course it isnt just the swoopers, but if someone is swooping we can assume or at least hope that individual is experienced and not a new skydiver just learning to land their canopy. A new skydiver is going to make mistakes and while it is dangerous in the landing pattern we hope they are learning from these mistakes and not repeating them. An experienced skydiver causing a problem for others while trying to execute a swoop is irresponsible and after all that is the point/topic of this thread, being responsible in the landing pattern. If it became commonplace for people to track up and down jump-run there would be a similar discussion to this one, "its ok to track just dont endanger others"... I encourage everyone to enjoy their skydive to the fullest, that includes flying your canopy ANYWAY you see fit, but if you start to endanger others then that is by anyones definition irresponsible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,466 #121 July 18, 2005 >and its certainly not just the swoopers causing them as some posters >here wish to believe... In this particular case (turning 90's in a standard pattern) the swoopers are by far the biggest problems. Only swoopers do low 180's and 270's to achieve high speeds at landings, and only they seem to be defending the practice. That's not to say it is intentional, or that most swoopers have this problem; in my experience it is a small minority of them who feel that as long as they 'clear their airspace' they have no responsibility to fly a normal pattern. I have also discovered they generally don't think this is a dangerous thing to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #122 July 18, 2005 QuoteIn this particular case (turning 90's in a standard pattern) the swoopers are by far the biggest problems. In another particular case, (turning 270's in the far 'base-final' corner of the landing area) the lightly loaded canopies which take their base leg too far, putting themselves right in the middle of a fast final are by far the biggest problems. In another particular case, (turning 180's in the far 'downwind-base' corner of the landing area) monkeys flying behind you who think you aren't going to turn around at all - let alone turn a standard base- and are quite content to follow you off the landing area downwind until you confuse them by turning around and landing safely into wind, are by far the biggest problems. We are talking about "responsibility in the landing pattern", where "pattern" refers to the rectanglular shape made by crosswind, downwind, base and final legs (not by the 90 degree turns) and "responsibility" belongs to all involved (not just the ones who use landing techniques that differ from yours) Okay, some will just have to come to grips with the fact that there is more going on in a pattern than just 90's and accept that everyone in the air has a responsibility to get to where they are going safely. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,466 #123 July 18, 2005 >Okay, some will just have to come to grips with the fact that there is > more going on in a pattern than just 90's and accept that everyone > in the air has a responsibility to get to where they are going safely. I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. Personally I don't accept when people do dangerous things because someone else says "you just have to come to grips with it." Doing 180's and 270's in a busy pattern is not acting responsibly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kelpdiver 2 #124 July 18, 2005 Quoteoh i have no doubt there are a series of problems, and its certainly not just the swoopers causing them as some posters here wish to believe... instead of using this topic to talk about situations, circumstances and how to avoid and prevent them some people here would rather throw out blame and pretend there is some 'evil agenda' on the part of jumpers to hurt one another... that is just silly... For a guy that keeps throwing out the word strawman, you're generating quite a few yourself. No swooper is suicidal - but the price for them making a mistake is much higher, and more threatening to others, than some fool sashaying on final. If the latter scenario really concerns people, there is a good solution in play at Lodi. People land at the short end of the LZ, and there is a half mile of fields in front. When I was given the DZ brief, they specifically said not to hold in brakes or do any S turns. If I hit the approach high, just keep going. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites goose491 0 #125 July 18, 2005 Quote>Okay, some will just have to come to grips with the fact that there is > more going on in a pattern than just 90's and accept that everyone > in the air has a responsibility to get to where they are going safely. I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. Personally I don't accept when people do dangerous things because someone else says "you just have to come to grips with it." Doing 180's and 270's in a busy pattern is not acting responsibly. No Bill, you will have to come to grips with it. What other choice do you have? 180s and 270s are not simply going to go away. There are more people that maintain they can be perfomed safely than you, who seem think they cannot. I know I'm going to get flammed for that one because, well, How dare I? but your responses to me are borderline childish. You might as well have typed "You're not the boss of me!" Now!... Look up at your post, what part are you disagreeing with? The fact that not everyone is doing 90s, or that everyone in the air has a responsibility to be safe? p.s. I'll take your lack of response to our prior discussion to mean you have changed your mind? Realised that if jumper can follow me down my downwind leg and expect me to be turning a base leg, that it would be funny to think when my plans are to do a 180 instead, his expectations would then be different? (Now he'd following me expecting me to land in the downwind direction, off the field?) My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! 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pilotdave 0 #105 July 16, 2005 QuoteAirplanes have outer and inner markers they use to determine where they need to be flying their pattern at, they don't just enter it 1/4 mile out this time and 1 mile out next time... You kidding? The standard pattern entry in the US (it's different in some other countries) is a right turn into a left hand pattern from 45 degrees off the downwind heading, entering downwind halfway down the runway at pattern altitude. In reality, planes enter the pattern from all over. The biggest help for planes is that the pattern is always single file and almost all planes have radios to announce and listen to each other's positions. A small airport could never support a twin otter load of cessnas in the pattern at once without stretching it out 10 miles (or doing it "oshkosh style." Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #106 July 17, 2005 QuoteIm the FIRST ONE IN THE PATTERN and someone loaded at 2.0 or higher on a xbrace starts his turn at 700 ft or higher and surpasses me but their final is IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION of mine... Responsibility in the landing pattern? First agree on the pattern! And in order to agree on the pattern we should find other ways to decide what it is at any given time; other ways than what is used in many places, nowadays. Most decisions about the pattern to follow have built in flaws that will not surface in moderate to strong winds and with everybody flying more or less the same type canopy. Some go a bit faster, some a bit slower but everything is pretty much predictable. It is the mixing of ‘conservative flying’ and ‘high performance flying’ and the type of both canopies and pilots that creates problems, sometimes. Add light winds from various directions (like on an otherwise sunny day, “perfect for skydiving”) and you have your recipe for disaster. Therefore I think every DZ needs a so called ‘tetrahydron’, a wind-arrow to give a clear direction on what the pattern should be, and we DO need one that works. How should it work? 1. It should be visible from way up (say 2000-1500ft) 2. It should move automatically with significant changes in wind direction (say more than eight knots) 3. It should NOT MOVE with slight variations in the wind. (i.e. not work as directly as a windsock or piece of tape on a stick …) 4. It should designate the landing pattern in real time. (It should show the MANDATORY landing direction at all times) All other smart plans have their shortcomings and will invariably still present the risk of low level canopy collisions – killing skydivers. “First-idiot-down” designates the pattern? Since I’m not always going to follow idiots who can’t read the wind I can’t blame you if you don’t do that either… Someone leaving the office / hangar to move the arrow? Yeah, right, that ‘ll be the day… I’m not going to wait for someone to finish his coffee / phonecall / packjob and turn the arrow when it is suddenly gusting 15 knots or more from a different direction than what the arrow shows – even though I’m capable of down wind landings, thank you … So…smart automation is what is called for, me thinks… Since you can’t get your ‘tetrahydron’ ready made at the local hardware-store, you will have to do some “junk-yard-wars-engineering” Our Low Tech Plan – “cunning in its simplicity…”: 1. Get a wheel with half the axis still attached. (We found a beautiful one from an old caravan – it goes without saying that it still should be able to move around on the axis…) 2. Get enough plywood, some bolts, some screws and orange or yellow paint. (we found an old arrow-shaped sign that was used to send cyclists towards the beach restaurant before that place was sold to the new owner…) 3. Build one. (Arrow on the axis + a piece of plywood vertically on the tail of the arrow. Moves to easily? Cut some of that plywood off… The wheel should be heavy enough and big enough to keep the whole set up in equilibrium...) Come on people, at most places there's a reasonable solid mock up - how hard can it be to build such a thing? Ours was constructed from less than $ 20 worth of material… Now all your DZO / DZ-staff need from now on is a big stick to highlight some of the softly spoken words*) for those that suffer from permanent altitude-deafness and show unacceptable behavior in the ‘parachutist landing area’ AND of course we all need a separate landing area for the swoopers – the “skygods area”. That one should have an entry gate and some built in challenges to “keep the kids away until they grow up”. It should be far enough away to not interfere with what else is going on, WHATEVER the wind direction… BTW: Part of my own first jump course is ALWAYS: 1. Look in the direction where you want to turn, ONLY THEN: 2. Pull the toggle down and KEEP LOOKING…. *) “Thou shalt fly the holy pattern as designated by the tetrahydron when landing in the parachutists area!” Thou shalt not let your high performance landing maneuver for the “skygods area” interfere with the “parachutist landing area’s” holy pattern in any way – decisive here is not whether ‘the airspace is clear’, decisive is whether you interfere with the holy pattern - and there it doesn't matter if you complete your maneuver or abort it. JUST DON'T GO THERE! I will personally kick the shit out of you and remove your battered body from the DZ if you choose to ignore this gospel – you’re not allowed to open below two grand either, are you not? If these conditions are met you may do your 90, 180, 270, 360 or even 540 – just stay out of the pattern! Nevertheless - even if this were in place everywhere I can’t help wondering what new ways you all are going to find to hurt or kill yourself anyway … "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #107 July 17, 2005 FINALLY! Someone who speaks with sense and forthought. Your plan sounds great. I will now print it out and take it over to the manager of our DZ. I'm sure he will at least listen to this proposal as we already have a ‘tetrahydron’. Then he will most likely just tear it up and throw it in my face. That's the way things are done here. After all, it's a lot easier to just keep calling 911 than it is to solve the problem.Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #108 July 17, 2005 Since your profile shows you jump at Perris I find it hard to believe that they don't have some sort of system in place to separate traffic and establish a landing pattern. AFAIK it isn't a small DZ, isn't it? They are planning to remain big, don't they? Keeping the customers alive is always sound business, unless you are an undertaker... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
happythoughts 0 #109 July 17, 2005 QuoteResponsibility in the landing pattern? First agree on the pattern! Yesterday I did 6 jumps at another dz. It was a competition, so most of the teams were not from the home dz. The wind was non-existant or extremely variable. At the beginning of the day, we agreed to land parallel to the beer-line with the dz on our right. We did that for the first 5 jumps. On the 6th, two teams exited on our pass. I am coming in following the established lefthand pattern and landing direction. I am at 100ft on a straight-in final. At the same time, the first-down from the other team is coming from the other direction. Our team (and camera) landed in the established direction. The other team followed down their first man. Their camera (local) followed us. I was not pleased. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,673 #110 July 17, 2005 "Tetrahydron"? Is that some kind of 4-headed lawn sprinkler?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #111 July 17, 2005 QuoteThey are planning to remain big, don't they? I have no idea what they plan on doing. All the property around us is for sale and the new housing tracts are coming down the hill at us fast, so who knows how long Perris will even be here. The runway is undergoing a complete refab as is one of the parking lots. The tunnel is going strong but who cares about that? So I guess they plan on being here for a while anyways. As I said. The management has always sided with the swoopers. I'm the one who gets yelled at if I change the patern to into the wind. These guys set the downwind patern in 10mph conditions... Plain crazy... I'm not going to follow them in like that. I try to out hang them when I can but now they want us belly fliers to get out first. They want everything and they get everything. The management here caters to all the stinkin little rich kids. I better go have a beer now.... The heat is getting to me... Sorry if I sound a little angry... I am old... I have old knees... I'd like to keep them working a while longer.Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #112 July 17, 2005 there is another simply answer practiced at most DZ that have a 'first down' policy. If you dont like the landing direction set, LAND OFF.. oh wait, then you might have to walk (or you might beat the guys in the grass back because the 'taxi's at Perris and Eloy are pretty quick...) and might get your rig dusty if you cant stand up your landings... but if the set landing direction bothers you that much you should accept the brief walk and perhaps a few min with 'the brush of shame' and if your not aware enough to tell when someone has set up a DW landing before you commit to the pattern...........____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davadikian 0 #113 July 17, 2005 What about when it happens -like my post 9 or so posts up from here says? Someone is already in the pattern and is about to turn on final all the while someone with a much faster canopy 500ft above him is in the middle of an aggresive 270 and touches down before the lower man. I have no problem landing downwind, crosswind, no wind, across the runway, down the street or wherever. I DO have a problem landing in oncoming traffic. Under perfect circumstances when you have time to make a last minute alternate decision as to where you want to land, what you say IS a solution, but when you have many different canopies traveling at different rates of speed and decent, all flying different landing pattern/types your answer is no solution. Dont take this as a bash on any particular DZ's way of doing things or any particular way of flying your canopy. Its just that things are changing and this sport has always evolved, and that evolution is usually driven by safety. Just my simplistic observations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,673 #114 July 17, 2005 Quote*** but now they want us belly fliers to get out first. They want everything and they get everything. The management here caters to all the stinkin little rich kids. . Maybe the management wants to avoid freefall collisions. Belly fliers should go out first.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #115 July 18, 2005 Quotebut if the set landing direction bothers you that much you should accept the brief walk and perhaps a few min with 'the brush of shame' and if your not aware enough to tell when someone has set up a DW landing before you commit to the pattern Any one who intentionaly sets a down wind pattern in the main landing area is self centered and childish. It is the ego driven act of a someone who has a need to show off. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #116 July 18, 2005 nice assumption but little substance.. quite often its simply the result of a simple wind change between setup and turn or between their landing and yours..... everyone i've seen do an 'intentional' downwinder announced their intention to everyone...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #117 July 18, 2005 Quotenice assumption but little substance.. quite often its simply the result of a simple wind change between setup and turn or between their landing and yours..... everyone i've seen do an 'intentional' downwinder announced their intention to everyone... So how many examples do people need to post before you're willing to admit there might be a real problem here? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #118 July 18, 2005 Quote"Tetrahydron"? Is that some kind of 4-headed lawn sprinkler? If it is visible from "way up" and works as designated in my earlier post (points into the wind but doesn't react to every light breeze) I'll settle for a "four headed lawn sprinkler". Hey - the dutch skydivers call their harness a "Harnas" which is - translated back - medieval body armour. Come to think of it, that might be a solution for the modern swooper... not only extra weight to optimize flight characteristics, but also extra body protection for those cool downwinders in the pattern... "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #119 July 18, 2005 oh i have no doubt there are a series of problems, and its certainly not just the swoopers causing them as some posters here wish to believe... instead of using this topic to talk about situations, circumstances and how to avoid and prevent them some people here would rather throw out blame and pretend there is some 'evil agenda' on the part of jumpers to hurt one another... that is just silly...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davadikian 0 #120 July 18, 2005 Quoteits certainly not just the swoopers causing them as some posters here wish to believe... its certainly not just the swoopers causing them as some posters here wish to believe... Of course it isnt just the swoopers, but if someone is swooping we can assume or at least hope that individual is experienced and not a new skydiver just learning to land their canopy. A new skydiver is going to make mistakes and while it is dangerous in the landing pattern we hope they are learning from these mistakes and not repeating them. An experienced skydiver causing a problem for others while trying to execute a swoop is irresponsible and after all that is the point/topic of this thread, being responsible in the landing pattern. If it became commonplace for people to track up and down jump-run there would be a similar discussion to this one, "its ok to track just dont endanger others"... I encourage everyone to enjoy their skydive to the fullest, that includes flying your canopy ANYWAY you see fit, but if you start to endanger others then that is by anyones definition irresponsible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,466 #121 July 18, 2005 >and its certainly not just the swoopers causing them as some posters >here wish to believe... In this particular case (turning 90's in a standard pattern) the swoopers are by far the biggest problems. Only swoopers do low 180's and 270's to achieve high speeds at landings, and only they seem to be defending the practice. That's not to say it is intentional, or that most swoopers have this problem; in my experience it is a small minority of them who feel that as long as they 'clear their airspace' they have no responsibility to fly a normal pattern. I have also discovered they generally don't think this is a dangerous thing to do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #122 July 18, 2005 QuoteIn this particular case (turning 90's in a standard pattern) the swoopers are by far the biggest problems. In another particular case, (turning 270's in the far 'base-final' corner of the landing area) the lightly loaded canopies which take their base leg too far, putting themselves right in the middle of a fast final are by far the biggest problems. In another particular case, (turning 180's in the far 'downwind-base' corner of the landing area) monkeys flying behind you who think you aren't going to turn around at all - let alone turn a standard base- and are quite content to follow you off the landing area downwind until you confuse them by turning around and landing safely into wind, are by far the biggest problems. We are talking about "responsibility in the landing pattern", where "pattern" refers to the rectanglular shape made by crosswind, downwind, base and final legs (not by the 90 degree turns) and "responsibility" belongs to all involved (not just the ones who use landing techniques that differ from yours) Okay, some will just have to come to grips with the fact that there is more going on in a pattern than just 90's and accept that everyone in the air has a responsibility to get to where they are going safely. My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,466 #123 July 18, 2005 >Okay, some will just have to come to grips with the fact that there is > more going on in a pattern than just 90's and accept that everyone > in the air has a responsibility to get to where they are going safely. I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. Personally I don't accept when people do dangerous things because someone else says "you just have to come to grips with it." Doing 180's and 270's in a busy pattern is not acting responsibly. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #124 July 18, 2005 Quoteoh i have no doubt there are a series of problems, and its certainly not just the swoopers causing them as some posters here wish to believe... instead of using this topic to talk about situations, circumstances and how to avoid and prevent them some people here would rather throw out blame and pretend there is some 'evil agenda' on the part of jumpers to hurt one another... that is just silly... For a guy that keeps throwing out the word strawman, you're generating quite a few yourself. No swooper is suicidal - but the price for them making a mistake is much higher, and more threatening to others, than some fool sashaying on final. If the latter scenario really concerns people, there is a good solution in play at Lodi. People land at the short end of the LZ, and there is a half mile of fields in front. When I was given the DZ brief, they specifically said not to hold in brakes or do any S turns. If I hit the approach high, just keep going. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goose491 0 #125 July 18, 2005 Quote>Okay, some will just have to come to grips with the fact that there is > more going on in a pattern than just 90's and accept that everyone > in the air has a responsibility to get to where they are going safely. I suppose we will just have to agree to disagree. Personally I don't accept when people do dangerous things because someone else says "you just have to come to grips with it." Doing 180's and 270's in a busy pattern is not acting responsibly. No Bill, you will have to come to grips with it. What other choice do you have? 180s and 270s are not simply going to go away. There are more people that maintain they can be perfomed safely than you, who seem think they cannot. I know I'm going to get flammed for that one because, well, How dare I? but your responses to me are borderline childish. You might as well have typed "You're not the boss of me!" Now!... Look up at your post, what part are you disagreeing with? The fact that not everyone is doing 90s, or that everyone in the air has a responsibility to be safe? p.s. I'll take your lack of response to our prior discussion to mean you have changed your mind? Realised that if jumper can follow me down my downwind leg and expect me to be turning a base leg, that it would be funny to think when my plans are to do a 180 instead, his expectations would then be different? (Now he'd following me expecting me to land in the downwind direction, off the field?) My Karma ran over my Dogma!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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