Another D License / Night Jump / Tandem Question

[MBiegs 0]

Would a night tandem fulfill one of the two D license requirements for night jumps?

[obelixtim 147]

No......

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[virgin-burner 1]

..and probably the manufacturers of said tandem-systems wouldnt appreciate the thought..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[djmarvin 2]

One requirement for a Tandem Rating is a D license. So if you are doing Tandems you probably no longer need the night jump requirements.

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

[kuai43 7]

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One requirement for a Tandem Rating is a D license. So if you are doing Tandems you probably no longer need the night jump requirements.

I'm thinking it was meant a passenger.

Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

[DiverMike 5]

Although nobody in their right mind would try to claim a tandem jump as a passenger as a night jump for a D license, there is nothing in the SIM that says you can't. The SIM already recognizes that all tandem jumps are not student jumps since Demonstration jumps into Level 2 areas require a D license with a USPA PRO Rating for all jumpers, including both tandem jump participants. In theory you could do the group jump as a tandem passenger assuming you could talk someone else into doing it without being killed by the drogue in the dark.

Some 'C' skydivers have ridden at night as a passenger to become more comfortable before soloing at night.(The search button is your friend). I doubt they did it in a group jump and it could not be counted as solo.

Interestingly enough, 'group' is not defined in the SIM Glossary, so I suppose you could argue any tandem is a group jump.

It is theoritically possible, but likely has never happened.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[NovaTTT 2]

No. Night jump requirement is one solo, one group, minimum. Tandem is neither of those.

You might be thinking of an end-of-day tandem jump which pushed the daylight limits.

Unless it was pushed back at least on hour past sunset it doesn't qualify as a night jump anyway.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[labrys 0]

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Interestingly enough, 'group' is not defined in the SIM Glossary

Maybe that's because they thought the entire section (6.1) they devoted to the topic was enough information.

"Sky" isn't in the glossary either.

Owned by Remi #?

[DiverMike 5]

OK - you are right it appears to be defined in section 6.1. I don't know why it isn't in the glossary. It is defined as:

1. Group skydiving, traditionally called “relative work,” may be described as the intentional maneuvering of two or more skydivers in proximity to one another in freefall.

By that definition, a tandem skydive could be considered a group skydive. Both the instructor and passenger are maneuvering their bodies to remain stable.

The question remains are two people attached to each other proximate to each other?
Could be: prox·im·i·ty (prk-sm-t) n. The state, quality, sense, or fact of being near or next; closeness:

Also - in case you were wondering, I don't consider a tandem jump as passenger as qualifying as a night jump for the passenger. I just enjoy picking the SIM apart. I'm bored at work.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[stratostar 5]

FYI-It would be very easy to light the drouge to do a night RW load with a tandem, also if done on the right full moon it would be easy to see it without being lighted.

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I don't consider a tandem jump as passenger as qualifying as a night jump for the passenger.

So I guess you don't consider it a skydive for the pax during the daytime too..... Both require the act of jumping out of AC... Having been on a load with a TDM @ night I would very much say it was a night jump for both the TI & pax and should be logged as such, I also see no reason said logged jump could not be used to meet the D license requirement of a group night jump. Did you ever fly your AC at night with an instructor and then log those flights as "night flight", same thing.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[theonlyski 3]

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Also - in case you were wondering, I don't consider a tandem jump as passenger as qualifying as a night jump for the passenger. I just enjoy picking the SIM apart. I'm bored at work.

Soley because I want to throw some gas on a fire every once in a while...

3-1(E)(4)(c)

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c. made two night jumps (one solo and one in a group) with a freefall of at least 20 seconds

Emphasis added by me...

Doesn't say 'droguefall of at least 20 seconds'

Tandem terminal anyone??

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[DiverMike 5]

Excellent point and I had thought of it. It is my understanding that Tandem Instructors do log their jumps as freefall. Is that the case? Do tandem jumps count towards cumulative jumps and freefall time awards? If they do, then drogue fall is the same as free fall and would count at night.

For the same reason I jump off a perfectly good diving board.

[theonlyski 3]

The SIM glossary states:

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In tandem skydiving, the portion of the descent where a drogue has been deployed between freefall and main parachute deployment.

Distinguishing it as something between freefall and deployment.

But... SIM also states

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5. Total freefall time is defined to include both freefall and droguefall time.

So, it could be either way.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[crackerjack 0]

I heard somewhere that night jumps are no longer required to obtain a D license - is that not correct?

[matthewcline 0]

They are still requiredBut if you have a valid reason for a waiver they can be waived by the USPA BOD.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[crackerjack 0]

thanks Matt. What constitutes a valid waiver - other than night blindness?

[matthewcline 0]

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thanks Matt. What constitutes a valid waiver - other than night blindness?

Other than a few "Tandem Only" Jumpers, I am not aware of any other reason beyond the "Night Blindness".

Side Bar Question directed to those who know: Do those who have a "Night Blindness" issue have restrictions in other parts of their life? Can they get a Drivers license? Fly? etc.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[firemedic 7]

I got my tandem rating through Jay Stokes. He said that Night Blindness or only going to do Tandems are legit reasons for a waver. It takes BOD approval so you need to apply for it well in advance of your Tandem Rating Course so you'll have the D in hand.

[matthewcline 0]

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I got my tandem rating through Jay Stokes. He said that Night Blindness or only going to do Tandems are legit reasons for a waver. It takes BOD approval so you need to apply for it well in advance of your Tandem Rating Course so you'll have the D in hand.

So, if after a few years of Tandems, you decide to go for and AFF-I Rating you will need to do the 2 Night Jumps first?

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[firemedic 7]

So, if after a few years of Tandems, you decide to go for and AFF-I Rating you will need to do the 2 Night Jumps first?

Matt

[matthewcline 0]

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So, if after a few years of Tandems, you decide to go for and AFF-I Rating you will need to do the 2 Night Jumps first?

Matt

I did my night jumps. I was just giving the OP some more info from a discussion I'd had.

[firemedic 7]

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So, if after a few years of Tandems, you decide to go for and AFF-I Rating you will need to do the 2 Night Jumps first?

Matt

I have never seen a "Tandem Only" "D" License. As an I/E I would be curious to how this plays out.

Matt

I doubt you ever will see one either because Licenses and instructional ratings are two entirely different things.
It's been a couple years since that discussion, but as I recall, a written waiver is submitted to the BOD and if approved the license would be issued and notated to reflect the nature of the waiver. In other words if the waiver was for Night Blindness the D license would be notated to reflect that. This waiver would have no direct bearing toward and instructional rating since all instructional jumps, including Tandems, must take place during daylight hours.

[matthewcline 0]

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So, if after a few years of Tandems, you decide to go for and AFF-I Rating you will need to do the 2 Night Jumps first?

Matt

I have never seen a "Tandem Only" "D" License. As an I/E I would be curious to how this plays out.

Matt

I doubt you ever will see one either because Licenses and instructional ratings are two entirely different things.
It's been a couple years since that discussion, but as I recall, a written waiver is submitted to the BOD and if approved the license would be issued and notated to reflect the nature of the waiver. In other words if the waiver was for Night Blindness the D license would be notated to reflect that. This waiver would have no direct bearing toward and instructional rating since all instructional jumps, including Tandems, must take place during daylight hours.

I was referring to your post #18. As an I/E seeing the license is part of my duty in running the Course, so I would see a "Tandem Only" restriction of there was one.

I am well aware of when the tandem jump with a student is to be conducted as far as USPA is concerned.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[fasted3 0]

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So, if after a few years of Tandems, you decide to go for and AFF-I Rating you will need to do the 2 Night Jumps first?

Matt

A 'D' license is not required to be an AAF-I.

But what do I know?

[firemedic 7]

I was referring to your post #18. As an I/E seeing the license is part of my duty in running the Course, so I would see a "Tandem Only" restriction of there was one.

Yes, you would see that restriction if it existed. For someone with night blindness You would most likely see "Night Blindness,or Valid for Daylight Hours Only"