skydiverton 0 #51 September 5, 2005 QuoteI once took an old f111 PC that was going to be replaced, and on the way home from the DZ wrapped the bridal around my hand and pitched it out the window at 40 MPH. Almost broke my arm, I was all over the brakes trying to slow down. Try this yourself some time at speed of less than 40 MPH then you decide if you can apply more force by hand than a fully inflated PC at 120 MPH. Moral of the story is if the PC is fully inflated you are not going to be able to pull the pin by hand. I saw someone break his wrist holding bungee pilot out of a car driving 80km/h. So do not try this at home or on a rainy day! For the original thread: If I have something over my head (including only a pilot) I will breakaway and pull the reserve on my sport-rig ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Using your droque to gain stability is a bad habit, Especially when you are jumping a sport rig Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #52 September 5, 2005 Silver only. What I don't like about cutting away is that it disconnects one of your final options. I have seen an incident (long ago) where a jumper couldn't get her main out, went to her reserve and the reserve exploded on opening. She got her main open at about 100 ft. If she cutaway she'd have died. A pilot in tow is a nasty situation and the best solution is to proactively AVOID them. But if you have one anyway, cutting away is no better guarantee of saving yourself, so you might as well keep one of your options connected to your harness. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
immanence 0 #53 September 5, 2005 QuoteI have seen an incident (long ago) where a jumper couldn't get her main out, went to her reserve and the reserve exploded on opening That is terrifying Unless I'm mistaken, the whole thing is a crapshoot anyway. On the one hand, cut away and you risk, on reserve deployment (i.e., when one half of the container is emptied), the D-bag, lines and risers of the main becoming dislodged and flying up (under force of an inflated PC) into your inflating reserve with whatever consequences. On other hand, not cutting away could lead to two canopies out (which I imagine must be pretty hairy if your main is a Velocity), canopies wrapping together, possibly, a bi-plane with unpredictable flight characteristics (no thank you ), or at best the ability to safely jettison the main (which would be quite a judgement call under such stressful conditions; again, the nightmare of your exiting main wrapping with your only reserve). At least with a bag lock you know you're gonna be clear. PC-in-tow is a bitch, there's no doubt "where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigger_john 0 #54 September 20, 2005 I've had one mal a PC in tow, I cutaway then deployed my reserve, I found my free bag in the centre of the cutaway main canopy which had deployed after the reserve tray opened. I think that cutting away keept me alive. I don't think the time saved by going straight for the reserve handle is anything to write home about if it is you waited WAY to long to react to your PC in tow mal. I agree with the line of thought if you have mad ANY attempt to deploy the main then cutaway before deploying your reserve. It saved my life _________________________________________ Nullius in Verba Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tr027 0 #55 September 20, 2005 QuoteSilver only. What I don't like about cutting away is that it disconnects one of your final options. I have seen an incident (long ago) where a jumper couldn't get her main out, went to her reserve and the reserve exploded on opening. She got her main open at about 100 ft. If she cutaway she'd have died. Was she overloading it? I don't see the reason to expect a reserve to blow up on a regular terminal opening (120 )? Aren't reserves supposed to be reliable for regular terminal speeds??"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nael 0 #56 September 22, 2005 QuoteQuoteI once took an old f111 PC that was going to be replaced, and on the way home from the DZ wrapped the bridal around my hand and pitched it out the window at 40 MPH. Almost broke my arm, I was all over the brakes trying to slow down. Try this yourself some time at speed of less than 40 MPH then you decide if you can apply more force by hand than a fully inflated PC at 120 MPH.Quote Hmmm, Bobby Gray and I tested the first hand deploy pilot chutes for Booth. Guess how we did it? That's right, we held them out the window of the car with a fish scale to see how much pull they had. We tested up to 80 mph. Don't recall thinking my arm was in jepardy of breaking... Quote Moral of the story is if the PC is fully inflated you are not going to be able to pull the pin by hand. Glad I didn't read your post before actually doing just that.... So then you say that it is worth it to tug on the bridle in the hope of dislodging the pin? I was always taught that it's a waste of time and to accept it as it is and deal with it. Many instructors have told me this. You mentioned the materials you used were very different from today's PC materials, doesn't that mean today's will react differently when conducting the same tests? I don't want you to think I'm targetting you or anything, I just want to know if I should rethink my EP's for this scenario.www.TerminalSports.com.auAustralia's largest skydive gear store Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites flipper 0 #57 September 28, 2005 yep done that twice.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Witelli 0 #58 September 29, 2005 QuoteOn other hand, not cutting away could lead to two canopies out (which I imagine must be pretty hairy if your main is a Velocity), canopies wrapping together, possibly, a bi-plane with unpredictable flight characteristics I think the bi-plane is what you would hope for in a 2 out. At least that's what it seemed like when I was reading the SIM. (fly front canopy, leave rear canopy's toggles stowed and don't flare on landing) The down plane looked nasty though. Please correct me if I'm wrong though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites immanence 0 #59 September 29, 2005 QuoteI think the bi-plane is what you would hope for in a 2 out. At least that's what it seemed like when I was reading the SIM. (fly front canopy, leave rear canopy's toggles stowed and don't flare on landing) The down plane looked nasty though. Please correct me if I'm wrong though. You're right. The bi-plane is by far the best scenario, but my point is that it is unpredictable. You are still in an emergency situation that must be treated with extreme care. The situation will be accentuated if there is a large mismatch between the size and speed of your reserve and that of your main. Personally, though, I have no experience of this. With a downplane, if you have time, get rid of the main. "where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites RogerRamjet 0 #60 September 30, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteI once took an old f111 PC that was going to be replaced, and on the way home from the DZ wrapped the bridal around my hand and pitched it out the window at 40 MPH. Almost broke my arm, I was all over the brakes trying to slow down. Try this yourself some time at speed of less than 40 MPH then you decide if you can apply more force by hand than a fully inflated PC at 120 MPH.Quote Hmmm, Bobby Gray and I tested the first hand deploy pilot chutes for Booth. Guess how we did it? That's right, we held them out the window of the car with a fish scale to see how much pull they had. We tested up to 80 mph. Don't recall thinking my arm was in jepardy of breaking... Quote Moral of the story is if the PC is fully inflated you are not going to be able to pull the pin by hand. Glad I didn't read your post before actually doing just that.... Quote So then you say that it is worth it to tug on the bridle in the hope of dislodging the pin? I was always taught that it's a waste of time and to accept it as it is and deal with it. Many instructors have told me this. I am not suggesting anyone change their EPs based on my posts. ANYTHING outside your practiced EPs is a waste of time because you have not practiced it before. However, in my situation, I knew I was high and had perhaps 10 seconds to "waste" on it. The original hand-deploy (called throw-out today) did not have a pin, the container was held closed with a bungee loop through the flap grommets and a bight of the PC bridle. With today's setup, very tight containers with pin closure, I would go with my usual EPs unless I knew I was deploying high and recognized that it was a PC in tow immediately. As allways, discuss with your instructors to make an informed decision about how [B] YOU [/B] will handle any given situation. Quote You mentioned the materials you used were very different from today's PC materials, doesn't that mean today's will react differently when conducting the same tests? Good observation. Generally speaking, the low porosity materials of the time were not as low as those in use today, so the answer to your question is yes. I think you can see from some of the other replies here that the current pilot chute materials offer increased drag over what we started with. Another piece if evidence is that the original production hand-deploy PC was 36 inches and the current diameter of Booth's standard PC's is smaller. Quote I don't want you to think I'm targetting you or anything, I just want to know if I should rethink my EP's for this scenario. I only wish we had such a wealth of information available as this forum provides in those days. I believe a number of fatalities might have been avoided just through education and exposure. I look at dropzone.com as a place where you can read about issues and causes and help to shape how you think about your gear and EPs. I personally would take this information, my instructor's teachings, and my own growing experiences to shape and modify my EPs as I went along. When Bobby and I were doing the first jumps on these things, we had no experience base at all to draw from and no large forum like this one to throw possibilities around. We were lucky to have some skydiving skills, some luck, and in particular, a man with the insight that Bill Booth had (and still has) guiding us down uncharted waters.... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
flipper 0 #57 September 28, 2005 yep done that twice.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Witelli 0 #58 September 29, 2005 QuoteOn other hand, not cutting away could lead to two canopies out (which I imagine must be pretty hairy if your main is a Velocity), canopies wrapping together, possibly, a bi-plane with unpredictable flight characteristics I think the bi-plane is what you would hope for in a 2 out. At least that's what it seemed like when I was reading the SIM. (fly front canopy, leave rear canopy's toggles stowed and don't flare on landing) The down plane looked nasty though. Please correct me if I'm wrong though. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
immanence 0 #59 September 29, 2005 QuoteI think the bi-plane is what you would hope for in a 2 out. At least that's what it seemed like when I was reading the SIM. (fly front canopy, leave rear canopy's toggles stowed and don't flare on landing) The down plane looked nasty though. Please correct me if I'm wrong though. You're right. The bi-plane is by far the best scenario, but my point is that it is unpredictable. You are still in an emergency situation that must be treated with extreme care. The situation will be accentuated if there is a large mismatch between the size and speed of your reserve and that of your main. Personally, though, I have no experience of this. With a downplane, if you have time, get rid of the main. "where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos' Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RogerRamjet 0 #60 September 30, 2005 QuoteQuoteQuoteI once took an old f111 PC that was going to be replaced, and on the way home from the DZ wrapped the bridal around my hand and pitched it out the window at 40 MPH. Almost broke my arm, I was all over the brakes trying to slow down. Try this yourself some time at speed of less than 40 MPH then you decide if you can apply more force by hand than a fully inflated PC at 120 MPH.Quote Hmmm, Bobby Gray and I tested the first hand deploy pilot chutes for Booth. Guess how we did it? That's right, we held them out the window of the car with a fish scale to see how much pull they had. We tested up to 80 mph. Don't recall thinking my arm was in jepardy of breaking... Quote Moral of the story is if the PC is fully inflated you are not going to be able to pull the pin by hand. Glad I didn't read your post before actually doing just that.... Quote So then you say that it is worth it to tug on the bridle in the hope of dislodging the pin? I was always taught that it's a waste of time and to accept it as it is and deal with it. Many instructors have told me this. I am not suggesting anyone change their EPs based on my posts. ANYTHING outside your practiced EPs is a waste of time because you have not practiced it before. However, in my situation, I knew I was high and had perhaps 10 seconds to "waste" on it. The original hand-deploy (called throw-out today) did not have a pin, the container was held closed with a bungee loop through the flap grommets and a bight of the PC bridle. With today's setup, very tight containers with pin closure, I would go with my usual EPs unless I knew I was deploying high and recognized that it was a PC in tow immediately. As allways, discuss with your instructors to make an informed decision about how [B] YOU [/B] will handle any given situation. Quote You mentioned the materials you used were very different from today's PC materials, doesn't that mean today's will react differently when conducting the same tests? Good observation. Generally speaking, the low porosity materials of the time were not as low as those in use today, so the answer to your question is yes. I think you can see from some of the other replies here that the current pilot chute materials offer increased drag over what we started with. Another piece if evidence is that the original production hand-deploy PC was 36 inches and the current diameter of Booth's standard PC's is smaller. Quote I don't want you to think I'm targetting you or anything, I just want to know if I should rethink my EP's for this scenario. I only wish we had such a wealth of information available as this forum provides in those days. I believe a number of fatalities might have been avoided just through education and exposure. I look at dropzone.com as a place where you can read about issues and causes and help to shape how you think about your gear and EPs. I personally would take this information, my instructor's teachings, and my own growing experiences to shape and modify my EPs as I went along. When Bobby and I were doing the first jumps on these things, we had no experience base at all to draw from and no large forum like this one to throw possibilities around. We were lucky to have some skydiving skills, some luck, and in particular, a man with the insight that Bill Booth had (and still has) guiding us down uncharted waters.... ----------------------- Roger "Ramjet" Clark FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 3 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
