How do you decide which advice to listen to?

[johnmatrix 21]

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The only exception might be one like http://www.hobby-lobby.com/video_camera.htm or http://www.hobby-lobby.com/flycamone_eco_v2_532847_prd1.htm?pSearchQueryId=1663259 but ONLY if I could forget it was there. Not likely.

Yeah the only camera jump I've done was with one of those cameras and it was still a distraction - even when I knew it would be an issue and was adamant I was going to ignore it.
On top of that the footage is pretty shit so there isn't much point I think.
But an 8mm camera would be awesome.

[mjosparky 3]

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Problem is, most rule makers make out things to be more complicated than they really are..

This gets into the psyche and people actually start believing it.

No, it's not that much of a distraction and no, it's not that much of a snag hazard unless you jump something what Norman Kent jumps..

100 to 200 jumps is not a big difference when it comes to perception and abilities for most people.

Stop being delusional..

You sure pass out a lot of crap advice for a guy hiding behind anonymity.

Bill, you are right I call bull shit also.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[popsjumper 2]

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Oh yeh, I see that those rules are getting you all lot far when the most BS that's happening is here

Struck a nerve did I?

Which one applies to you?
Some people are self-centered enough to think:
1 - rules don't apply to them.
2 - it hasn't happened t me yet so it must be ok.

Apparently, both of them.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[nigel99 150]

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From my experience, this comes from a lack of education to the new jumpers. I was in this category and had never been told that a GoPro was a bad idea until I came to these forums asking advice, got a bit of a talking to for that one lol

During AFF and getting your A and subsequent mentoring, you're told, "Don't do X, it could lead to ramification Y which leads to possibility Z". Students learn through this and various other methods. But with cameras, all I had heard until the forums dropped some knowledge my way was, "Don't jump a camera until 200 jumps...because". Followed by a flimsy explanation that sometimes used distraction as a justification. Perhaps with more concrete examples that new jumpers are used to, the lesson could sink in better?

Search for Piisfish's story it is really eye opening.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[piisfish 135]

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Search for Piisfish's story it is really eye opening.

and the video is online

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[billvon 2,435]

>Perhaps with more concrete examples that new jumpers are used to, the lesson
>could sink in better?

Sure, here are 28:


Late Summer 2009 Southeastern Region
I was playing with mounting options of my recently purchased little camera. Having just over 1,000 camera jumps at the time, this seemed like no big deal to stick it on the foot and go out and play. Given the nature of my jumping history, I have jumped non-standard gear on several occasions, including cameras mounted on the leg and chest but always with thorough planning beforehand. However this was a toy to me so I just took it lightly, grabbed it and went out to the boarding area for the dirt dive, fiddling with it the whole time. It was not till about 10,000 feet where I realize that my helmet is sitting on the bench in the boarding area and that I’ve been so distracted this whole time by the little plastic camera on my foot. I didn’t even notice on takeoff, when I always wear my helmet, that I had nothing on my head. This whole thing kinda spooked me so I told everyone that I would hang out on the outside of the tracking dive and break off early so that I can play it safe.

To sum it up, the skydive sucked, didn’t get any good footage because I was outside, and was mad at myself that I could be so careless. I think the small camera has been in the closet ever since and I went back to wearing camera only on camera jumps and no camera on fun jumps. Sorry the story has no blood and guts, but it’s still a big lesson on how sometimes things seem like no big deal when they really are. It may have ended different if I decided to stay in the skydive.


November 27 2009-NorCal Area
Female with approx 40 jumps exited aircraft with friend (about same number of jumps) Female claims to be “very active” BASE jumper, so going low (approx 1000 feet) was “no big deal.” She did not have a CYPRES. She was trying to shoot her friend’s deployment “from below.” No injury.

December 17, 2009 –SoCal Area
Male from Switzerland. 30 jumps. “I’m a paraglider pilot, so I know how to fly already.”
Flew into fence while trying to get video of his shadow. Minor cuts/abrasions.

Exact Date unknown-SoCal area
Female jumper, around 80 jumps was warned on ground and in aircraft about flying with a camera. She indicated that she felt very confident about flying with the small format camera taped to her helmet.
She left the aircraft with her goggles around her neck and after landing, admitted that in the process of trying to get the camera going, she had forgotten to put on her goggles. She was shaken up by the experience. No injury.

January 1 2010 Southeastern Region
Skydiver was shooting a friend on a high clear n’ pull. Neither one noticed their location and both ended landing far off the dropzone. Sprained ankle resultant from downwind landing on uneven and unfamiliar terrain.

March 21 2010 Southwestern Region
Skydiver “just shooting my jump” saw another canopy in the pattern and wanted to shoot it not noticing his own altitude. Downwind landing (against pattern). No injury, merely a talking-to by S&TA.

February (day unknown) SoCal
Two skydivers, each with fewer than 100 jumps, wearing small format cameras. They were practicing sit-flying and went low. Both deployed at approximately the same time and had a collision during deployment. Both suffered bruising, contusions. One jumper had 4 broken lines and 3’ tear in his center cell but did not cut away. He described the canopy as “really cool in the video” indicating he’d spent a lot of time looking up at the canopy. Neither had serious injuries.

March, exact date unknown Area/location not disclosed.
Tandem instructor with small format hand cam has a malfunction. He cuts away main but does not reach for the reserve handle, apparently anticipating a MARD save. He later explained that he wanted to keep filming the student and the cutaway (He did get great footage). No injury.

April 13 2010 Western Region
Skydiver with around 100 jumps wearing camera on head has spinning malfunction.
Delays cutting away and disconnects chinstrap on helmet before cutting away, losing altitude awareness. He was worried about the snag hazard, but still left his RSL connected anyway. He did not pull his reserve handle because “he felt the Skyhook take over as he was putting his hand on the D ring.” Skydiver had allegedly been warned about wearing a camera before 200 jumps. No injury.

April 19 2010 SoCal
Same skydiver from Switzerland mentioned earlier (Paraglider pilot) working on his swooping skills @ 200 jumps (while wearing wingsuit). Flew into fabric side of packing area breaking tension cables and damaging wingsuit. Claims camera wasn’t part of his incident.

April 21, 2010 Southeast Region
Skydiver with 242 jumps got a small format camera for Easter and was anxious to jump it. He pulled the camera from the USB charger and was rushing to the aircraft. He could not get the camera to turn on/stay on/go into record mode, and as a result of his rush, forgot to connect his chest strap.
He was experienced enough to grab his MLW and hold on during deployment.
His PM said “I think I need to work on my mental skills more because the camera kept me from doing my regular routine.” No injury.

May 3-5 (exact day unknown), 2010 Western Region
Skydiver could not get his small format camera to turn on and when the exit light came on, was still playing with his helmet. He delayed the other jumpers to the point that two others went past him. This created a snag hazard for the other skydivers, plus he had a helmet loose in the door area. The tandems on the load requested a go-around. No injury, was talked to on the ground.

May 2010 Central Region
AFF instructor was jumping a small format camera that they just had only just purchased. He was slightly long on climb out but still within reason. AFF jump goes normal until student deployment when the instructor flips to his back to film the opening of the student then tracks and deploys. This AFF instructor landed off while the other side instructor easily landed on the DZ with the student. Instructor was distracted by wanting to get "the shot." The instructor that landed off was carrying the student radio. The student landed uneventually without radio assistance.

June 7, 2010 South East area
Similar incident to tandem handcam incident posted above. Malfunction of the main (lineover followed by linetwists), TI cuts away but does not go for reserve handle. His left hand does not move in the entire video, and in the video, makes a comment about “getting that on camera.” Skyhook save. Reserve opens with several line twists and still, instructor does not move left hand, using right hand to twist and legs to kick.


June 20, 2010 SoCal area
(Actual jump number unknown, 3 months in sport). Newbie Jumper wearing small format camera on his chest was trying head down for the first time, got low (admitted he was geeking his camera) and deployed while head down. He flipped into his lines and one of the lines snagged his chest mount. “I was going for my hook knife but was able to clear the line first.” No injury.

June 21, 2010 Area unknown (from a post on DZ.com)
A jumper with approx. 50 jumps was gearing up and getting ready to board the plane, a highly experienced camera person noticed that this jumper had a Go Pro camera attached on top of his helmet. The jumper was questioned about his skill level, the jumper stated that the Go Pro is very small and that in no way will it ever get hung on his risers on opening, so his opinion was that it should not fall under USPA guidelines: of a recommendation of 200 skydives should be performed before flying a camera.
The jumper boarded the plane and performed his skydive. The incident was brought to my attention and the jumper was questioned by me immediately following his jump.
As we were talking I could tell the jumper was visibly nervous, he began to explain to me that after he deployed his parachute he noticed that his chest strap had been misrouted. Lesson learned!
A camera is a DISTRACTION! Like it or not! I asked this jumper how many times he checked his camera to make sure it was on before he left the plane? He said he checked it multiple times. It is obvious that after he geared up, he never once checked himself, before he entered the plane, never checked his gear, while in the plane and before exiting he never checked his gear.....he checked his camera multiple times.


June 22, 2010 SoCal area
From S+T:
===========
Jump number 200, which is the minimum requirement for strapping a camera to your head at our DZ. Strapped a camera to my head. Plan was to film two handsome skydivers jumping in only boxer shorts after some bets from the night before. This was in March, with plenty of snow on the ground. And to make it interesting, we planned a downwind landing - unless the wind was too strong. Can anyone say "recipe for disaster"? (=

Freefall was uneventful. Followed one of the guys down in canopy. Looked at the windsock and decided it was "too strong". Of course, the other guys on the load thought otherwise. Coming out of the 180 degree hook I see one of them coming towards me. Not very close, but it grabbed my attention. Even got it on tape. But I didn't notice the ground coming up on me... Didn't flare at all, hit with feet, knees, upper body, bounced back through the risers in a somersault and landed on my back about 5 meters away. Thank SkyGod for the meter of snow on the ground - I walked away with a stiff neck for 1 week.

Conclusion: Camera is a distraction. Never plan for "downwind, unless it's too much", it would be much better with "downwind, or other side of the runway if you think it's too much". 180 degree hooks make it hard for others to see what you're doing and for you to see what others are doing. Stupid stupid stupid.

June 28, 2010 Central Cal region
Guy I was organizing this weekend at XXXXX. The jumper in question has plenty of skydives but is not the most heads up guy you've ever met. We were first out of the PAC on a 4 way freefly jump.

He was having a hard time getting the camera to turn on, so he started putting his helmet on without the Small Format Camera attached, turning on the camera and then sliding it into the locking mount. He put his helmet on, thought he turned the camera on and then put the Small Format Camera on, but he put it on backwards. He realized his error just as the green light came on. The jumper started to take his helmet off to correct the problem and I told him to forget about it. He listened to me and started to climb out when someone behind us yelled, "And it's not on either" He then stopped his climb out and started to try and turn it on. I again forcefully told him to forget it and he finally finished the climb out....ready set go.

It was a light load so we had room in the spot but he was clearly more concerned with that camera than anything else going on around him. My opinion is that this is a guy who wouldn't jump a camera if the smaller form factor were not available. I told him on the ground if he was going to jump a camera he needed to be ready to go once the green light was on, and if he wasn't he needed to forget about it and exit anyway. I think I should have told him he shouldn't be jumping a camera.

Date unknown, Southeastern Region
Jumper with 133 jumps had a small format camera and this was her first jump with the camera. She removed the camera from her helmet and was talking to the camera when a gust of wind grabbed her canopy and picked her up. She landed on her side and broke her wrist. Her helmet probably saved her from additional injury.

July 4, 2010
From I/E, S&TA Western Region:
Jumper with 112 jumps decided to sneak a (brand deleted, small format) camera on a load. We do not allow them before 200 jumps, period.
Filming his own landing he failed to flare as he was watching either his feet or his shadow. We haven't heard back from the hospital yet but it appears he sprained both wrists, maybe broken.
This jumper will be monitored very closely in the future but I believe he has learnt his lesson with this injury.
Please keep posting these incidents. They make for strong arguments against these dweebs that think it's about the size of the camera that counts.

NorCal, July 10
Tandem-master is doing Handcam. Spinning main due to one break toggle being stuck. He never attempts to clear break toggle! Cut-away! Never uses left hand to pull reserve. RSL/skyhook safe. Not sure if camera was the problem. Didn't look like he tried to film everything (or at least the footage doesn't look good) He claims to have had TM cut-aways before where the skyhook beat him to the reserve....so he decided this time not even going for the reserve? TM has PRO rating too.
[dse note;I have requested a copy of this video so I can pixelate/blur faces but post the incident.]

August 19 2010
From S&TA/Southern area
Younger jumper
[edited to say] Small format camera] tied to helmet
Riser caught camera on deployment and broke plastic clip. Camera flew out but the Spectra tied to camera case caught riser and brake.
[edited to remove name] landed with helmet attached to chest strap because the way his helmet got wrapped on riser.

October 1, 2010: Mid-Western region
A jumper with approximately 120 jumps was competing in a 4-way scramble event. He had a [[namebrand deleted]] mounted on the side of his helmet with velcro and a tether. One the first jump of the day, he knocked his helmet on the door on exit and the camera came loose.

Because the camera was tethered, it was floating next to his head, smacking up and down in the wind. They ended up funneling the exit and went pretty low while he spent several seconds trying to fix it. Eventually he gave up and continued the skydive.

On the next jump he hooked up the camera again. We told him that perhaps he shouldn't wear it given the circumstances and his less than 200 jumps, but he insisted it was fine. Since our DZ doesn't have a set rule about no cameras before 200, there was nothing anyone could do.

Because I was right above the formation when the camera nearly came off, I'm not too happy with the situation. There's a good chance that I could have gotten a face-full of camera if there hadn't been a tether. Have you had any success in convincing jumpers not to use these types of cameras with such low jump numbers?

Western Region (Chicks Rock) Oct 1
Visiting jumper borrowed helmet from experienced skydiver. Small format camera on helmet.
It was this visiting jumpers first jump on this parachute/main, first helicopter jump, and second jump from below altide. He had around 50 total skydives.
After exiting the helicopter, he kept looking around the sky for his partner, but couldn't locate her, His audible can be heard going off. He does not deploy.
He appears to deploy at approx 1.5k based on pausing video with his alti in view.
He has sufficient altitude to get back to DZ at that point, but he chooses to geek teh camera instead, throwing hand signals etc. He does not make it back to the DZ landing area, and instead lands on the motorcycle racetrack. Had he deployed at proper altitude, or had he not geeked the [brand name deleted], he'd have easily made it back.

South Eastern Region PM rec'd Nov 4 2010
I should have listened to you guys.
My [{edit} small format camera] was glued and taped on the top of my helmet. When I deployeed my breaks excess got caught over the camera and I couldn't see what was caught so I tryed to pull off my helmet and then saw my break lines on it. I couldn't steer and couldn't know what to do so I chopped my canopy and had my first reserve ride. My helmet stayed tied to the canopy and even the camera was OK.
(video of this incident has been requested. This jumper has 66 jumps)

Western Region PM rec'd Dec 13 2010
Heres another 1 for your dz.com list.
Dude has a [[brand name deleted]] on his helmet @ about 65 jumps dzo he dont care.
Head down and delpoys and lines caught on the [[name brand deleted]] and he had to chop. and the [[brand name deleted]] broke off but it made his reserve twist up when it pulled his head. He got lucky to get out of the twists at about 1grand.

Midwest DZ, April 2011

First jump with a small format camera. Have owned one for about 2 years, using it for things like mtn biking, rock climbing, kayaking, snowboarding, etc. (not saying this made me ready to jump it, just more aware of what I was attaching to my helmet). Uneventful 2 way, was aware of the small format camera on my head but remained altitude aware, tracked off at 5.5, waved, deployed. Nasty spinning line twists, didn't want to chop because it was my first camera jump although I remained altitude aware in the spins, making the decision at 3K that I could kick out, started spinning out around 2.8, fully out of twists by 2.6.

SouthEastern Region June 18

My friend was jumping his [small format camera] and hit it on exit. He was trying to fix it so it was pointing the right angle after the exit and started to sping. He spinned very fast and hit me in the side and almost made my hackey come out. After he hit me we both were spinning pretty fast so he pulled his main because we said cameraman pulls first.
People should know to leave alone the camera if there is a problem in the jump so more problems don't happen in the jump.

[topdocker 0]

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>Perhaps with more concrete examples that new jumpers are used to, the lesson
>could sink in better?

Sure, here are 28:

Just printed that to hand to lowtimers who just don't get being talked to by a Regional Director about how dangerous their decision may be.

thanks!

top

Jump more, post less!

[TKoontz 0]

Great advice, those are exactly what I was looking for! Definitely a major distraction. I'll be sharing these with a couple of friends I think...
Thanks a lot!

Find your peace, though the world around you burns

[Rookie120 0]

Not to dig up old threads but something that I did today just goes to show what can happen when you let your guard down for a couple seconds.

I took about 3 years off from jumping. 6 weeks ago I did a recurrent jump with a good friend. He put me in the harness, went through emergency procedures, the normal stuff. I have been jumping every weekend since then. A few weeks ago I got my camera helmet back up. Put some new digital toys on it and started filming again. I got about 250-300 camera jumps and just hit 1600 total jumps today.

I was filming a 4 way team today. Nothing special. First thing, walking to plane I find my reserve handle damn near falling out of pouch. Strike 1. Taxing out I went to lower the door and it slipped and it slammed so then I get to listen to people bust my balls about slamming the door like I don't know. It slipped folks! Damn I'm sorry
STRIKE 2. Then at 9k when I was getting ready to put my helmet on, (I use a Bonehead Flat top) for some reason I smeared my sweaty hand accross the still camera lens. Strike 3! I should have known I was about to do 1 more really dumb thing and while I grabbed my little cloth to clean the lens the light for door comes on, I throw on my helmet, secure, blue light, red light rolling, green light climb out. GOD DAMN IT! I just forgot to put on my damn goggles! So now I have a 4 way team and I need to try my best with what I got. I kept them in my ring sight with my eyes squinted you could blind fold me with dental floss. It wasn't as bad as I thought it would have been but still not fun.

Kinda long story but this shows that the perfect storm of distractions can sneak up on you and really screw things up and the camera just adds 1 more element to the chaos. After that jump I packed up and drank some water, collected my thoughts and got my head out of my ass and had 5 more uneventful jumps to cap off a great day. But it was a rough start.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[popsjumper 2]

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From my experience, this comes from a lack of education to the new jumpers. I was in this category and had never been told that a GoPro was a bad idea until I came to these forums asking advice, got a bit of a talking to for that one lol

During AFF and getting your A and subsequent mentoring, you're told, "Don't do X, it could lead to ramification Y which leads to possibility Z". Students learn through this and various other methods. But with cameras, all I had heard until the forums dropped some knowledge my way was, "Don't jump a camera until 200 jumps...because". Followed by a flimsy explanation that sometimes used distraction as a justification. Perhaps with more concrete examples that new jumpers are used to, the lesson could sink in better?

This is one of my personal pet peeves.

Holy hell in a hand basket, people!
Take charge of your learning.

Nobody ever told me....that is the biggest mistake you can ever make....waiting for someone to tell you.

Pick up a SIM. Read it.

Had you, TKootz, done that, you would have known the recommendations already.

If anyone thinks we, as instructors and fun jumpers are going to spoon feed you every piece of information out there, you are sadly mistaken. If anyone thinks all instructors and fun jumpers are all-knowing founts of knowledge and power, you are sadly mistaken. If anyone thinks instructors and fun jumpers are all going to feed you good and proper advice, you are sadly mistaken.

OK, I'm getting angry here and I don't want to be.

*breathe*

Here's a good piece of advice for ALL jumpers, young and old:

-Get a SIM.
-Read it.
-ASK the questions it's going to generate.
-Take charge of your learning.
-Be responsible for your own knowledge.
-Be honest to yourself in your self-evaluation of your skill level

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239