Anyone disconnected their RSL during an emergency?

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

Sorry for starting yet another RSL thread, but I'm curious. It's fairly common knowledge that if you are in a canopy wrap, entaglement with another person or own main, or have 2 canopies out (particularly on the racer) that it is best to disconnect the RSL prior to cutting away. Yet in all my years of hearing "no shit, there I was..." stories, I have never heard of someone actually doing it.

As an extention of this, for all those RSL fanatics out there: if the poll goes as I expect (which is to say, I expect very few people to have ever disconnected an RSL mid-emergency), then why use an RSL at all? Why not instead use the SOS system? It's as simple as it gets, and the whole "device dependancy" debate goes out the window, since EPs are identical no matter the malfunction... "if something's wrong, pull this handle!" I know maybe 3 experienced jumpers who use the SOS.

Obviously anyone who would do occasional or frequent camera or CReW jumps would want an RSL instead so they could disconnect it on the appropriate jumps.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[FrogNog 1]

I have only disconnected my RSL for high-wind landings and hit-and-chugs.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[schuey87 0]

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=270299;page=3;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

I'm not giving advice cos I'm in no way at all experienced enough, I just remember reading that post a while back and thought it might interest you in this debate.

EDIT: I don't know how to link it to a specific post on the page, but it's the 3rd one down.

[kelpdiver 2]

SOS removes the option of keeping a semblance of a main plus the reserve - say in a low altitude wrap where you try to add any nylon you can.

[AFFI 0]

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then why use an RSL at all? Why not instead use the SOS system?

You answer this question as the basis of your posting – because as obvious as it may seem perhaps it is not, the jumper has the OPTION of disconnecting the RSL when it is recommended they do so. The reason skydivers who utilize and RSL device who fail to disconnect it when they should is a lack of proper and continued training as they progress through their skydiving careers. Read the Safety Check on page 7 and the article on the RSL on page 50 of the November 2005 issue of Parachutist Magazine and your questions will be answered.
I often read that use of a device might have prevented certain fatalities but how about saying “Continued and Proper training might have prevented this fatality”?
How many skydivers make checking their altimeter BEFORE attempting to fix a potentially correctable partial malfunction part of their daily EP practice drills?
How many skydivers make actually disconnecting their an RSL when recommended they so do actually make it part of their daily EP practice drills?
For that matter how many skydivers practice EP’s even HALF as much as they practice their freefall maneuvers (The November 2005 Safety Check addresses this).

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“if the poll goes as I expect (which is to say, I expect very few people to have ever disconnected an RSL mid-emergency)”

If the poll goes as I SUSPECT it may there will be few individuals who participate because –
A) Not everyone has had a Wrap or Two out
B) This topic has been addressed ad nauseam for the past few days
Perhaps a better question for the poll might be
“How many skydivers actually make altimeter checks or disconnecting their RSL when recommended they do so actually make it part of their daily EP practice drills?”
• Every time I practice.
• Never thought about adding it to my training routine.
• Practice? Train? Prepare for life saving EP’s? What is that?

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“I know maybe 3 experienced jumpers who…”

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I know experienced jumpers who do (and don’t do) a lot of things, that doesn’t make it a good idea for everyone.

Make it a great Day!

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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[goose491 0]

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SOS removes the option of keeping a semblance of a main plus the reserve - say in a low altitude wrap where you try to add any nylon you can.

You mean "Can't" right?

That's a very good point Kelp, with the SOS, you couldn't just whip out "extra nylon" and "land" with two out if you wanted to. (i.e. in a low altitude wrap/entanglement)


Edited to add:... then again, maybe that's not the case. If you are wrapped up... a cutaway doesn't necessarily mean you would lose the drag created by the main... seeing as it's... well, wrapped around you somehow... still I see your point. You wouldn't want to have that theory fail and find yourself in a short freefall.

My Karma ran over my Dogma!!!

[bmcd308 0]

In a high wind landing where I was getting dragged into a mobile home I disconnected it and then cut away. It happened quickly once I landed, but I had thought about it on final when I realized I was going straight down into a very small area.

Yes, I took a rock from my bag of luck on that one.

Brent

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www.jumpelvis.com

[pilotdave 0]

Never in freefall or under canopy, but I've disconnected mine on the ground for particular jumps or when demoing a canopy on risers not compatible with my RSL.

Dave

[Mike111 0]

Hey was just wondering when is the best time to statr larning to do that incase in an emergency - i mean if i tried id messit up cos im only a student but when would be a good time to have the technique reayd incase it is needed?

Thanks,

Mike

[billvon 2,426]

>Hey was just wondering when is the best time to statr larning to
>do that incase in an emergency -

Practice it on the ground, then in the air someday when you are open high and there's no traffic. However, I do NOT recommend you drill this procedure as part of your emergency procedures! If you ever have a mal, you will do what you drill. And if you practice taking off your RSL during EP's, you may just do that at 1000 feet someday. And that could be your final mistake.

When disconnecting an RSL, a few cautions -

It is connected directly or indirectly to the reserve pin. NEVER pull on the lanyard itself under canopy. Pull only on the tab, and stop instantly once it becomes disconnected.

Stow the excess somewhere. Again, if it snags something (say your helmet or glove) it can cause the reserve to deploy.

When reconnecting it, follow the diagram in your manual exactly. Reconnecting it incorrectly can result in a premature reserve deployment or an un-cut-awayable main.

[AFFI 0]

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Hey was just wondering when is the best time to statr larning to do that incase in an emergency - i mean if i tried id messit up cos im only a student but when would be a good time to have the technique reayd incase it is needed?

Thanks,

Mike

Billvon gives good advice on this subject - I would add to talk to your instructors and hae someone who is qualified to teach this aspect of the gear to you first hand.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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You answer this question as the basis of your posting – because as obvious as it may seem perhaps it is not, the jumper has the OPTION of disconnecting the RSL when it is recommended they do so. The reason skydivers who utilize and RSL device who fail to disconnect it when they should is a lack of proper and continued training as they progress through their skydiving careers.

I was well aware of the disadvantages of the SOS system vs. the 2-handle w/ RSL when I posted this. I disagree that "the" reason is what you state, although it is certainly ONE reason. Other reasons could be:

- jumper simply doesn't think of it in a high-stress situation, regardless of training
- jumper does not have time to disconnect RSL
- jumper is unable to disconnect RSL because they can't see it due to rig distortion and/or their wrap is violent

What I am looking to learn here is if this "option" of pulling a small tab in an awkward, unfamiliar location during a wrap is really practical. So far only one person has responded who had an RSL, and he has not told his story.

I encourage that person and any future poll takers who had an RSL to give details of how difficult they found it to release the RSL or why they did not/were unable to.

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I know experienced jumpers who do (and don’t do) a lot of things, that doesn’t make it a good idea for everyone.

I agree entirely, and I'm not saying the SOS is a replacement for the RSL. I am merely saying this:

1) the SOS system is unquestionably simpler.

2) IF you want an RSL on every jump for added saftey, the SOS will do the job just as well

3) It could be argued that wraps are relatively rare compared to the sum of all emergencies, and furthermore that the potential inability to release the RSL, combined with the significant possibility that cutting away from a wrap with an RSL connected, though unwise, will not cause any harm, makes the advantage of the RSL over SOS very, very slight. As such it could be said that the benefits of SOS over RSL outweigh the risks. Since that's the argument I keep seeing from RSL enthusiasts, I'm surprised the SOS is so rare. (I, for the record, would never jump the SOS system)

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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SOS removes the option of keeping a semblance of a main plus the reserve - say in a low altitude wrap where you try to add any nylon you can.

As with the previous post, this is a very, very slight advantage of the RSL over SOS. From a strict benefit to risk analysis, I think this can drop out.

Or, if you're really clever, you can pull the handle a few inches and use a finger to pull the reserve cable the rest of the way. It might be just as easy as releasing an RSL in a violent spinning wrap! (please understand that was a joke)

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[AFFI 0]

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You answer this question as the basis of your posting – because as obvious as it may seem perhaps it is not, the jumper has the OPTION of disconnecting the RSL when it is recommended they do so. The reason skydivers who utilize and RSL device who fail to disconnect it when they should is a lack of proper and continued training as they progress through their skydiving careers.

I was well aware of the disadvantages of the SOS system vs. the 2-handle w/ RSL when I posted this. I disagree that "the" reason is what you state, although it is certainly ONE reason. Other reasons could be:

- jumper simply doesn't think of it in a high-stress situation, regardless of training
- jumper does not have time to disconnect RSL
- jumper is unable to disconnect RSL because they can't see it due to rig distortion and/or their wrap is violent

What I am looking to learn here is if this "option" of pulling a small tab in an awkward, unfamiliar location during a wrap is really practical. So far only one person has responded who had an RSL, and he has not told his story.

I encourage that person and any future poll takers who had an RSL to give details of how difficult they found it to release the RSL or why they did not/were unable to.

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I know experienced jumpers who do (and don’t do) a lot of things, that doesn’t make it a good idea for everyone.

I agree entirely, and I'm not saying the SOS is a replacement for the RSL. I am merely saying this:

1) the SOS system is unquestionably simpler.

2) IF you want an RSL on every jump for added saftey, the SOS will do the job just as well

3) It could be argued that wraps are relatively rare compared to the sum of all emergencies, and furthermore that the potential inability to release the RSL, combined with the significant possibility that cutting away from a wrap with an RSL connected, though unwise, will not cause any harm, makes the advantage of the RSL over SOS very, very slight. As such it could be said that the benefits of SOS over RSL outweigh the risks. Since that's the argument I keep seeing from RSL enthusiasts, I'm surprised the SOS is so rare. (I, for the record, would never jump the SOS system)

Hi Jared,
First off, I am not debating with you, I would rather to think of it as we are learning and exploring possibilities together so do not take any of my comments as confrontational but rather friendly and endeavor to have a mutually beneficial learning experience.
As a USPA Solo Freefall Instructor I try to adhere to the recommendations set forth in the SIM2006 so I will reference that book as a source of information. You are an experienced skydiver, a rigger and intelligent so I suspect that you are familiar with the teaching aspect of the sport somewhat.
First off, what we teach is avoidance, that is the best way to deal with a canopy collision entanglement (wrap), we can probably universally agree on that. There are varying ways to deal with differing circumstances of an imminent collision. In another thread someone suggested that if the lower jumper cutaway and their reserve deployed by means of an RSL the lower jumper may clear the situation and the jumper on top can clear themselves of the canopy wrapped around them after the tension of the suspended weight of the lower jumper is relieved. I do not do CReW so my knowledge is limited in this arena but that comment seems to make sense. The SIM states that “RSLs can complicate certain emergency procedures such as cutting away from an entanglement after a collision. In the event of multiple cutaways and if altitude allows, jumpers should stagger reserve openings to avoid possible canopy collisions”. So if an RSL is utilized it is best to disconnect it before initiating the main canopy release in this situation and although there is the possibility that the RSL cannot be found before the disconnect of the main canopies it would have to necessitate that both jumpers be unable to disconnect their RSL’s to be unable to stager their reserve deployments. I do not know how likely or unlikely this would be in reality since we are exploring a hypothetical situation that rarely happens. Utilization of SOS systems by both jumpers would make staggering of both cutaways difficult, so I believe that the RSL gives a better chance of staggering the reserve deployments or that the jumpers using SOS systems stagger their cutaways, they are recommended by the SIM to remain altitude aware and communicate to one another their intentions.


“jumper simply doesn't think of it in a high-stress situation, regardless of training”

The key words in my statement is “Proper” which should include simulating high stress situations as closely as possible and “Continued” which indicated repeated acts of “Proper” training including practicing the disconnect of an RSL in a hanging harness while getting the Truman treatment. Although it is not a guarantee, repetition is how we better ensure that we do not freeze in a high stress situation. Refer to the Safety Check on page 7 in the November 2005 Parachutist written by Jim Crouch that addresses this issue.

"jumper does not have time to disconnect RSL "

The SIM does address this issue and recommends that if the jumpers are too low to cutaway (below 1000’agl) to deploy reserves to better ensure that the jumpers survive the landing and warns against the use of an RSL or SOS system in this scenario. Again avoidance is a key here, and there is also the necessary scenario that both jumpers are unable to disconnect their RSL’s - the SIM also warns that both jumpers may have to ride in one canopy. This sure would be a shitty position to find oneself in. As for canopy collisions that happen lower than the base leg or the altitude which the high performance landing is initiated recent history has illustrated that this is a situation that is very difficult to survive. The SIM states that the lower canopy has the right away, the high performance canopy pilot should plan an out and should use discretion and good judgment as to when to abort.

Overall I would not consider myself an “RSL Fanatic”, but rather a USPA instructor that try’s my best to adhere to the recommendations of the USPA whose seal is on my license to instruct. As I stated on a posting in a similar thread there is not a one size fits all answer for each skydiver and the decision to utilize and RSL/Skyhook device should be made once a skydiver is experienced and educated enough to decide whether not follow the USPA recommendation or have a compelling reason as defined by the USPA to not utilize an RSL type device in their skydiving equipment.

Thanks for the oppourtunity to further explore the use of the RSL and the USPA's recommendations in modern skydiving. I am looking forward to any comments you will add that will further enlighten the readers of this forum that will make us all safer and better educated skydivers.

Make it a great day!

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[FrogNog 1]

Are you replying to the right thread? The third post down on the page you linked to says if someone had cut away their main, they would have died because their reserve exploded.

And you replied to my note that I disconnect my RSL for high-wind landings and hit-and-chugs - situations where I plan to cut away as soon as I get to the ground.

And other people (well, the original post) were talking about disconnecting their RSLs before trying to get out of canopy formation wraps, some other sort of entanglement, or a 2-out situation.

So I am confused how this all relates.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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First off, I am not debating with you, I would rather to think of it as we are learning and exploring possibilities together so do not take any of my comments as confrontational but rather friendly and endeavor to have a mutually beneficial learning experience.

Thank you! That's rather refreshing and unusual. I am looking for the same, although my style tends to be interpereted as debate

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As a USPA Solo Freefall Instructor I try to adhere to the recommendations set forth in the SIM2006 so I will reference that book as a source of information.

The SIM is a great source of information, and certainly should be the primary reference of any USPA instructor. Unfortunately, what I'm aiming for here is gathering data on real-life... have people found the advice given in the SIM regarding RSLs and collisions to be useful or practical? The web of complexity in the SIM regarding this rivals the tandem instructor decision tree; this is not because the SIM is written badly, but because the situations are each unique. I find the topic of what system an experienced jumper should use, RSL, SOS, skyhook, or none of the above, to be beyond the scope of the SIM.

I was hoping for more responses to the first three options of the poll... without them, this thread is essentially pointless.

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[schuey87 0]

Yea, sorry mate it's me getting confused with all the talk about the SOS system.

[FrogNog 1]

No worries.

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Pull.