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sundevil777

High perf landings and wanting to be selfish

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I don't get to the DZ as much as I'd like, so my time there is valuable to me. I know I'm not the only one.

When an ambulance/helicopter is needed it stops jumping for a long time and puts everyone in a sour mood that spoils the day for me and others.

The results of exercising the freedom to jump any canopy and do high perf landings can have an impact on others.

I think the freedom to do what you want aspect of our sport is not so appropriate for these reasons.

I realize such injuries and deaths can happen for other reasons, but the canopy landing incidents are especially irritating, and I think selfish. I want to express my desire to be selfish and not be inconvenienced by such stupid accidents. Don't we all have this in common?

I am not really uncaring and selfish. I just think that the right for jumpers to do what they want is overstated, and we should not be so quick to allow stupid choices and actions based on the desire to preserve such freedom.

Flame on...
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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the activity in itself is pretty selfish.... Even if we kept the activity to plain vanilla dirt diving, someone would get hurt... The disturbing thing is that some people do get well over their heads, in any part of the sport.
We can accept accidents, they happen. But some people do crash and burn because they have strictly no business doing what they are doing. And this is much harder to accept.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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I agree with you as long as we do not lose our sympathy and empathy skills at the same time, regardless of the cause of an accident (stupidity, ignorance or whatever) the accident victim is / was someone's son, daughter, father, mother etc. Being frustrated and angry etc. at someone else's stupidity or carelessness is normal human emotions but let's not desensitise ourselves at the same time.

"The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo

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I hear so often that the overly aggressive/downsizing mad skillz guys get talked to from the perspective of not wanting to see them get hurt.

Perhaps if they had some attitude thrown at them in the form of...you'll be thought of as an ahole for messing things up for others... Being nice apparently doesn't work. Maybe being preemptively mean to them would work. Such people do want to be in the cool crowd, right?
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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Might have a positive impact and get them thinking. As long as the people throwing the attitude their way are seasoned jumpers that they respect. Some people won't listen to anyone no matter who they are. The sympathy and empathy skills I referenced in my previous post is in reference more to after the accident has occurred.

"The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it." - Michelangelo

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I hear so often that the overly aggressive/downsizing mad skillz guys get talked to from the perspective of not wanting to see them get hurt
or
you'll be thought of as an ahole for messing things up for others



its all in the delivery, some will still take any comment as a hit to their "mad skills"

we had a young lady that was way over her head but didn't think she was *(mad skillzs) and after scaring the entire dz staff really bad everyone had their say - most were from the "your gonna die/get hurt point of view" and it got quite confrontational - I stayed out of it since they all added exactly what I would have said and I was extremely upset I just stayed away and grabbed my next load of students.
After landing she stalked up to me on the field and said "you might as well jump down my throat too"

I was silent and took my time daisy chaining my lines to give myself time to think of how to reply - I startled her with a big hug and replied quietly "don't make me watch you die"

it slipped right through her armor and she started bawling and apologizing

she became a model jumper, went on to get her tandem and rigger rating.

she was my only success though, the few others I tried to help - I failed to get through to them as did everyone else who tried

Roy
They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

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I like the idea, and I want to agree. But I also want to note that skydiving itself is probably one of the most selfish activities the people engage in. Then again, since we are all selfish anyway you are correct. Sometimes my thinking can be very circular.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Wow, talk about irony. You don't like the way you feel after seeing an ambulance ride, so you want to take someone else's right away to protect your own feelings. That's selfish...

There are things that many of us don't like, but we can't just get rid of them because of the way a small group feels. We either need to learn to tolerate the things we don't like or simply remove our self from said thing. Don't like cigarettes? Don't smoke them.

Yes, I agree that swooping can be dangerous. However, we can set rules in place to separate swoop areas from regular landing areas to help ensure safety. And if a swooper hurts himself, then it's on him. That's the beauty of freedoms.

Now, if you want to talk about selfish, take a look at this video: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10201059735712428

I'm a swooper, so shit like this makes me very upset. People like you see jackasses like this and then start a campaign to shut things down.

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williammonk

Are you saying we should ban swooping?



I see now that I didn't make my position clear, being selfish against the accidents by those progressing too fast/mad skillz/SoFPiDaRF crowd.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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And if a swooper hurts himself, then it's on him. That's the beauty of freedoms.



THAT is a good indication of "selfish".
No concern for the well being of others.
Agree or not with ANY proposal is one thing...blowing off injuries to others is another. It's that all-about-me thing all over again.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I guess we should stop allowing tandems jumps, as they occasionally break an ankle and stop jumping. AFF students sometimes get hurt and stop jumping for a bit. Experienced and inexperienced skydivers jumping moderately loaded canopies sometimes get hurt and stop jumping for a bit. Experienced and inexperienced jumpers flying big canopies sometimes get hurt and stop skydiving for awhile. Hard openings sometimes require medical attention and force operations to come to a halt.

The polite thing to do when flying a high performance canopy is to only pound in well away from the runway. By planning ahead, we can make sure there is easy ambulance access so it won't interrupt other's valuable time.

In that thread, car accidents sometimes take up my time. Last night, it took me 4 hours to drive a normally 1.5 hour commute. Perhaps we should ban or restrict cars on highways as well.

If you don't want your free time to be diminished or intruded upon by an accident, perhaps you should spend that time somewhere that doesn't include an inherently dangerous activity. Injuries in this sport are inevitable. Sure, high performance canopy flight does increase the risk of injury. However, it is not going away.

If you see someone flying in an unsafe manner that may intrude upon your free time, it is YOUR responsibility to approach that pilot and try to help them with their knowledge and skill. I've paid for people to go through canopy courses because I thought they were going to bounce. I've given away multiple copies of Germain's books to "that guy". I've sat people down and gone over canopy flight and issues that often catch people by surprise and cause injury.

Do you take the active approach to helping all jumpers be safer or the passive-aggressive just make a post about it but not do anything concrete to help the situation approach?

The change in culture at a DZ comes from all the jumpers at a DZ. Peer pressure is very effective. Teaching and helping these jumpers through this phase is essential.

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popsjumper

THAT is a good indication of "selfish".
No concern for the well being of others.



Kidding me, right? Take my GF for example. I don't want her to skydive because I don't want to see her get hurt, but if she desired to, then I would not say anything because she's an adult capable of making her own decisions.

I don't want to see anyone get hurt. But it's not my right to police what grown, mentally capable adults want to do. It's not your right either.

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EppyNephrine

***THAT is a good indication of "selfish".
No concern for the well being of others.



Kidding me, right? Take my GF for example. I don't want her to skydive because I don't want to see her get hurt, but if she desired to, then I would not say anything because she's an adult capable of making her own decisions.

I don't want to see anyone get hurt. But it's not my right to police what grown, mentally capable adults want to do. It's not your right either.

When what grown, mentally capable adults want to do might infringe on my right to stay alive, then I feel like I do have a say in the situation. It's why I strongly prefer to jump at dropzones that separate high-performance landings from standard landings; it gives me a safer place to do my standard landing, while having to worry much less about someone who's in over his / her head coming outta nowhere on a pocket rocket and taking me out, and taking away my right to enjoy the sport.

Is the DZO who set up a separate landing area for high performance landings "policing?" Damn straight. If I (random fun jumper who is not a DZ employee) gives you shit about busting 270s in the main landing area, am I policing? Or am I just asking you to respect the rules that you (implicitly or explicitly) agreed to follow when you showed up to play at this DZ.

If the DZO kicks you off for repeatedly busting big turns in the landing area, again, he's not taking away your rights, he's telling you that you broke one of the rules you agreed to when you wanted to play at his playground.

Don't like those rules? Go to another playground or start your own. But at pretty much every DZ, it's their DZ, their rules. But don't kid yourself that you have unlimited rights because you're a grown, mentally capable adult.

For the record, I do care when people kill themselves in this sport, even when they ignored repeated warnings and got themselves in way over their head. But I get pissed off when they kill someone else because they ignored repeated warnings and got themselves in way over their head. Landing is a team sport unless every single jump you do is a solo exit on your own pass.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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NWFlyer

But don't kid yourself that you have unlimited rights because you're a grown, mentally capable adult.



I think you must have skipped over my post before the one you quoted where I state that HP landing areas should be sectioned off. Also, I fully agree that a person doesn't have the right to do something that may endanger you. However, if that person is engaging in an activity that does not jeopardize your well being, they have the right to do as they wish imo.

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EppyNephrine

***But don't kid yourself that you have unlimited rights because you're a grown, mentally capable adult.



I think you must have skipped over my post before the one you quoted where I state that HP landing areas should be sectioned off. Also, I fully agree that a person doesn't have the right to do something that may endanger you. However, if that person is engaging in an activity that does not jeopardize your well being, they have the right to do as they wish imo.

But do you also agree that a DZO, as a private business owner, has the right to restrict activities on his or her dropzone, whether it be requiring an AAD, or limiting turns to no greater than 90 degrees, or kicking off the guy with 100 jumps who wants to fly his crossbraced at 1.8, even if he only ever does solo pass hop & pops?
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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NWFlyer

But do you also agree that a DZO, as a private business owner, has the right to restrict activities on his or her dropzone, whether it be requiring an AAD, or limiting turns to no greater than 90 degrees, or kicking off the guy with 100 jumps who wants to fly his crossbraced at 1.8, even if he only ever does solo pass hop & pops?



Absolutely. A business owner of any kind has the final say about what is and what is not permitted at his business. But to make a USPA rule that doesn't even give a DZ the choice is not right.

I view DZs in the same manner as states. If a US state wants to legalize suicide, good for them. If suicide bothers you, then move to another state that better suits your interests.

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EppyNephrine


Absolutely. A business owner of any kind has the final say about what is and what is not permitted at his business. But to make a USPA rule that doesn't even give a DZ the choice is not right.

I view DZs in the same manner as states. If a US state wants to legalize suicide, good for them. If suicide bothers you, then move to another state that better suits your interests.



So USPA should just get rid of the BSRs? What else?
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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Have you missed the part about some people being in over their heads hurting/killing other people? It's not at all about banning swooping. It's not at all about banning high performance canopies. It's about something being in place to protect the rest of us from someone who gets a hundred jumps and think that they are the best thing that ever happened to skydiving.

I really don't understand people "needing" to jump specialized equipment so early and other people defending their "right" to do so no matter who else it affects. Skydiving is amazing. If you love it and want to be the best, jump more. It doesn't take long to rack up a couple hundred jumps for a GoPro or Wingsuit. It doesn't take terribly long to rack up a thousand jumps if you want to start being a serious swooper on a cross-braced canopy. In the mean time, you can learn to be a proficient skydiver and canopy pilot. (This is not necessarily directed at you as you may have put in the time or are currently doing so now.)

Just some thoughts from someone who is still a tourist. I think I need another 5 years to be a real skydiver. But then again, I don't want to wait...I should yell at someone for imposing on my rights.

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I snipped the strawman arguments.

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If you don't want your free time to be diminished or intruded upon by an accident, perhaps you should spend that time somewhere that doesn't include an inherently dangerous activity.


You an others apparently missed a primary point devil77 made.

Doing so much stupid stuff resulting in injuries and deaths adversely affects our SPORT. That means it affects everyone in it.

If it keeps up, yeah, you and I both just might have a lot of spare time to check out other sports when the goobermint sticks its nose in farther than it already is.

IMO, peer pressure has only so much impact.
Surely you can't believe that none the bozos doing stupid shit has never been "talked to'. And yet they continue the craziness.
Peer pressure is not all of the answer.

Direct DZO involvement carries a ton more weight than any peer pressure possibly could.


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Teaching and helping these jumpers through this phase is essential.


Bingo....and then staying on top of them heading off the bozos trying who entice them into waters over their head. You've heard the siren song, "Come on down. Get out of the boat. Smaller and faster is better".
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Your writings say that you could not care less about our sport. They reek of all-about-me. That's one of the attitudes that lead to so much carnage. "I'm gonna do what I'm gonna do. Don't like it? Go away."
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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