Lack of responsible leadership is killing skydivers

[wmw999 2,150]

***Jumpers seem to want the best of both worlds.

They want the easy going attitude when it comes to training and regualtion, and then they want to turn around and spin points like Shannon Pilcher, or build big HD stuff like Mike Swanson, and then out swoop the both of them. It doesn't work that way.

If a guy wants to do SL at a Cessna DZ, and then do nothing bigger than a four way (remember it's a Cessna) and jump at 1.1 or less, then by all means, give them as much freedom as they want.***

Excellent post, and dead on.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[artistcalledian 0]

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Unfortunately, the same is not true of many people with pieces of paper that say they should know something. Ask any gear dealer how many times a novice jumper has told them their instructors recommended a 1.2 wingloading for a first main...

after 2 weeks in the sport and 7 jumps.... i went to my rig seller and said i want to buy brand new, i was recommended a chute that gave me a 1.3 wing loading .... i took his word for it and ordered it.

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[Ron 7]

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would you also be in favour of not letting a 17 year old buy a Ferrari if he had the money?

Dumb analogy.

A car does not have to be driven at a high speed. It CAN, but it also can do 1 MPH. A small canopy NEEDS speed.

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after 2 weeks in the sport and 7 jumps.... i went to my rig seller and said i want to buy brand new, i was recommended a chute that gave me a 1.3 wing loading .... i took his word for it and ordered it.

And you took the persons advice as law? You didn't ask your INSTRUCTORS?

I went to the Chevy dealership. They told me I needed the Z06 Corvette. I didn't buy it.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[artistcalledian 0]

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And you took the persons advice as law? You didn't ask your INSTRUCTORS?

he WAS one of my instructors !!!!!!

after making a post on here about it, and reading up about wing loading, i rang him up and changed the order

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[davelepka 4]

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would you also be in favour of not letting a 17 year old buy a Ferrari if he had the money?

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Dumb analogy.

It also dumb because the price difference between what most 17 year olds drive, and a Ferrari is huge.

Canopies are all about the same price, and even then, the most expensive is within financial reach of almost everyone.

[artistcalledian 0]

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would you also be in favour of not letting a 17 year old buy a Ferrari if he had the money?

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Dumb analogy.

It also dumb because the price difference between what most 17 year olds drive, and a Ferrari is huge.

Canopies are all about the same price, and even then, the most expensive is within financial reach of almost everyone.

Its not dumb at all

I'm not saying a Lamborghini or Ferrari are within reach of most kids... but SOME kids have rich, stupid parents, and want their kids to look cool.... as long as you've passed your driving test (AFF for skydivers) you can go and buy any car you want.... there is no regulations or law stopping some 17 year old buying a supercar.... so why should there be any regulations stopping a person buying what ever chute they want?

does it boil down to numbers for you? its ok to risk a small amount of 17 year olds in Lamborghinis, but not a large amount of 17 year olds under a VX90 ?

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[jumpwally 0]

Well, this thread was going along very good,,and now,,as usual drop to the level of splitting grey hairs....

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[apoil 0]

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Trying to do my part...It gets old people with 100 jumps telling me I have no clue about skydiving since I dont' know them and their skills.

You know, I've never heard someone with 100 jumps tell me that.

If you get that response consistently, it's far more likely that it has something to do with the way you are telling it.

Hint: "You're an idiot and you're gonna die if you keep it up" rarely works.

[Ron 7]

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You know, I've never heard someone with 100 jumps tell me that

Yes, but you told a guy with 100 jumps he would be fine under a certain canopy...And after he broke his leg it seems you were wrong. Maybe I get told that cause I actually say something they don't want to hear and you tell them only what they want to hear.

And if I remember correctly you told me I had no idea what I was talking about back then....Of course it turned out you didn't really know the size of the canopy.

So in this case it was YOU telling me I had no clue, and YOU were wrong.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[CanuckInUSA 0]

What do you expect from a troll?

Just an unrelated observation though. It's not only the 100 jump wonders who are messing themselves up under canopy. The last canopy related fatality (Australia) and femur (Kansas) we done by experienced guys. Swooping while fun is not safe. I slammed into Mile-Hi's new pond really really hard back in early September of 2005 and definetely would have femured had it not been over water. I like to tell myself that this wouldn't have happened over land as the depth perception over water is more tricky than it is on land. But I will never know now will I. The bottom line is that I didn't properly level out and my knee dug into the water and I was sent head over heels for the ride of my life and did suffer multiple injuries (none the required a hospital trip though).

I think we need to all take responsibility for our own actions out there, but having good canopy control coaches accessible to the masses can only help us. I know Mr Slaton rocked my swooping world when I did some coaching with him back in 2004 and then again in early 2005.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Trae 1]

in reply to Skybytch's "If you aren't willing to do more than bitch about it on an internet forum you are as much a part of the problem as are those who continue to "advise" new jumpers to buy and fly canopies that are beyond their ability to fly and land safely. "
............................

.... kinda had my attention there until you slipped into your namesake with the bytchy stuff.

Talking about this here however wobbly it be is slightly more than a bitch.
I've been impressed with the standard of reply and feel good that something is being done about this issue not just mindlessly disregarding it..

The idea that this issue is localised seems to point to a localised experience level.
People ambitions getting ahead of their abilities is as old as sport skydiving and probably a few 100,000 years or more older than that.


My main point is that SOME of our so called leaders are irresponsible . Most of them must be pretty good otherwise things would be much worse.

Gear and procedural developements have drastically reduced gear and prodcedural fatalities & incidents.

Now I feel we all need some brain developement in the caring department so we can get on top of the stupidity of hook turn deaths in our sport.

It's my feeling that such unecessary deaths emanate from a basically careless consciousness sprouted by some that can easily influence young impressionable skydivers.

Good on you people out there that are showing a better way. It's good to know that you'll be here for a good time and a long time.

[artistcalledian 0]

shall i cry like some of the religeous nut cases do on here?

i feel my point is actually quite a valid one, yet because it doesn't coincide exactly with yours, you say i'm a troll.... that seems to be the pattern on here, follow what everybody else is saying or you're a troll for making me angry

I think people should be given all the information to make safe decisions, tell people about wing loadings, tell them about all the dangers about small canopies, BUT then let them make their own decision on what to buy. If they then want to be stupid and buy a VX90 after being told not to, its their fault and they only have themselves to blame if they biff in

YOU are not my master, if i want to do something stupid, that is my decision. If somebody (no matter how old) wants to go and buy a Lamborghini Diablo after only passing their test 2 weeks ago, are you also in favour of regulations being brought in to stop them? Its exactly the same as buying a canopy that is too fast for you

Give everybody the relavent information on safety, but then stop the nanny state and let them fuck up if they want to, its their call

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[NelKel 0]

If they then want to be stupid and buy a VX90 after being told not to, its their fault and they only have themselves to blame if they biff in <<<<<<


O.K., but were the ones who have to scrap up the body, and answer to the media, and FAA investigators. It causes us to shut down planes and suspend jumping while airflights land on the DZ.

Just my $.02

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Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[LawnDart21 0]

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yet because it doesn't coincide exactly with yours, you say i'm a troll....

Some people on here consider you a troll not because your opinion differs from theirs, but because you frequently make inflamatory sensationalized posts that appear to have no point other than to simply stir things up. (example: thread on students shitting themselves) After numerous posts to that effect, some people on here are simply tired of your inflammations. The easy thing would be for people to simply not respond to you in hopes you'd just go away, but people are people.....lol, and some just can't do that, they have to reply to your rubbish, hence you get pegged as a troll. (for the record, I think the majority of what you post is rubbish, but I dont consider you a troll).

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if i want to do something stupid, that is my decision.

I absolutely agree with you there, as long as its not related to skydiving. All things being equal, I have more of a right to be safe in the air than you do to be stupid in the air. Meaning, if your stupidity jeapordizes my safety, I have a right to expect that my safety will come above your need to be free to make stupid mistakes. It happens all the time, lower jump numer jumpers on too hot of a canopy (because its their right to be stupid of course), takes out a conservative canopy pilot on landing because they are out of control.

Or worse, what happens when the "right to be stupid" jumper hooks themselves in? Everyone loses, the jumper, the jumpers family and sport as a whole. So to rebut your statement :

"Yes, you have the right to be stupidif you choose, but not in skydiving, not at my DZ. If I witness stupidity, I will have you grounded, for my safety and for those around us. And I would expect the same from you. In this sport, I am my brothers keeper, and he is mine."

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

That was a really great post.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[davelepka 4]

Post deleted due to personal attacks. Your one warning.

[SkymonkeyONE 3]

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If they then want to be stupid and buy a VX90 after being told not to, its their fault and they only have themselves to blame if they biff in <<<<<<


O.K., but were the ones who have to scrap up the body, and answer to the media, and FAA investigators. It causes us to shut down planes and suspend jumping while airflights land on the DZ.

Just my $.02

That was actually another good post. Ultimately, if unsafe/wreckless jumpers are left unchecked, the entire dropzone pays. I can't count the number of times I have seen the families of some of these idiots thinking they can get away with suing the dropzone, other jumpers, and even the industry for the stupid mistakes made by their "free-willed" loved one. Seriously.

At most reputable dropzones there are real rules in place governing who can jump what and when. There are people charged with maintaining a safe atmosphere; they are called Safety and Training Advisors, Dropzone Operators, and Instructors. Most places I have skydived, and that is a LOT of places in 25 years of jumping, do a pretty good job of it.

Is there a lack of responsible leadership at some dropzones? Certainly. I have been to a few of those places. Places that put the "sunset load" up at like 9:30 PM because they still have paying tandems that they "must" get done. Places where guys are smoking payday hooters on the ride to altitude. Places with absolute gutter gear for students. If you are jumping at one of those places and you hate what you see, then LEAVE. There are plenty of other places to skydive. Another option would be to MAN UP and get some ratings and then do what you can to clean the place up. Another option yet would be to get your regional director involved. If you do not use the system that is in place or don't feel like doing something on your own, then why complain at all? Believe me, there are more "responsible" dropzones than not. There are also many more responsible, senior skydivers/instructors/staff than not. The small pockets of "bad" out there are generally permitted to propogate only when the jumpers at those dropzones stay there and don't ever travel to boogies, competitions, or get away to other places to see how they run.

Chuck Blue
D-12501
AFF/SL/TM-I, BMCI, PRO
Raeford Parachute Center- "a very safe dropzone with responsible leaders"

[kjarv 0]

it would be awesome if there were a simple fix.
There are so many issues--- to name a few more:

1. Parachutes are expensive in both money and time
- yeah, our sport is expensive, we all accept that, but we all want our own equipment and want our investment to last

- you can say 'buy used' when you're learning, but that means (as an example) you'd have to FIND a 190, buy it, fly it, maybe decide to continue to downsize, then FIND a 170...etc.

- wouldn't it be cool if someone offered a 'downsizing to the canopy you want' program. Front the money for the VX you hope to own one day and the manufacturer 'loans' you a 190 until you can prove you can fly it, then a 170, then a 160... probably unrealistic from a financial point of view, but creative buyback or upgrade or maybe even canopy leasing schemes could make it viable.

2. There is no canopy 'checkride' process in place.
- no one makes sure you can 'fly' your current canopy before letting you 'upgrade' --- I'm not saying the FAA has it right, but if you wanna change aircraft complexity (fly on instruments, retractable gear, multiengine), you have to prove you have the skill.

3. Who takes time with lowtimers/unskilled/beginners?

- Though I'm far from good, and have really low jump numbers, am not a coach, but consider myself safe and conservative. I keep an eye out for people just off aff/the new guy hanging around the DZ and do a 2-way with them, they learn, you'll learn, it's fun and you'll probably make a friend. You shouldn't have to be able to fly a 4 way headdown and land a Katana to make friends at the DZ.

4. It's hard to express the risks and skills required to fly a small canopy/swoop
- my mother once commented, "Why don't you land like that" after watching a load of 'swoopers' come down at skydive AZ.... I said "It takes a long time and a lot of dedication, skill, and currency to pull that off, I don't jump enough to do that---I'm very happy to land somewhere near the DZ and not go to the hospital"
- Maybe it's old age, maybe its my one hospital trip, maybe a combination of both, but I find it fascinating that the rest of aviation tries to get everything as slow and predictable as possible when it comes to landing. I'm sure it would be thrilling for a cessna pilot to come in steep at redline speeds, engine idle, flair and glide otu a landing, but they don't do it (probably because of regulation, but reg came because it is generally recognized as unsafe despite pilot skill).

-kjarv
"I don't want an assignment to South Korea, do you know there are no DZ's there!!?!"
-- Statement to Air Force Personnel Center Assignments Officer

[artistcalledian 0]

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wouldn't it be cool if someone offered a 'downsizing to the canopy you want' program. Front the money for the VX you hope to own one day and the manufacturer 'loans' you a 190 until you can prove you can fly it, then a 170, then a 160... probably unrealistic from a financial point of view, but creative buyback or upgrade or maybe even canopy leasing schemes could make it viable.

i intend purchasing a Ferrari 360 Modena soon, do you think the dealers will lend me a few different cars untill i prove to them i can handle it?

Do all the people complaining still drive on the roads? there are people driving out there who are in cars that they can handle... aren't you worried about them killing you?

Lets start a campaign to stop people being able to buy fast cars unless they can prove they can handle them shall we?

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[billvon 2,435]

>Lets start a campaign to stop people being able to buy fast cars
>unless they can prove they can handle them shall we?

We have that. It's called a driver's license.

And fast cars can be driven slowly just like any other car; they aren't like canopies. Indeed, many fast cars have better brakes than slower cars, and thus can be brought to a stop more quickly; in that way the are the opposite of a tiny canopy.

However, trucks CANNOT be driven just like any other car. You must know far more about brake systems, braking in bad conditions, planning your turns ahead of time, panic stops etc in a truck. And thus we require a special license (and special training) to drive a large truck, since you may kill someone other than yourself if you try to drive a truck on a highway without training.

[skybytch 259]

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I think people should be given all the information to make safe decisions, tell people about wing loadings, tell them about all the dangers about small canopies, BUT then let them make their own decision on what to buy. If they then want to be stupid and buy a VX90 after being told not to, its their fault and they only have themselves to blame if they biff in

Many of us feel that the "let them do what they want, we're not their parents" attitude when it comes to canopy choice is just as dangerous as it was when the problem was people pulling low. We now have a "nanny state" controlling the dangers of pulling low; the rules that say you can't/shouldn't do that were written in blood years ago. We think there's already enough blood on the ground with which to write rules that will reduce the impact of this latest method of killing ourselves.

The risks involved in jumpers flying canopies beyond their ability to land safely in less than perfect conditions don't affect only the person flying that canopy. They affect everyone who shares the air and the landing area with that person. I'm not just talking about seeing an accident happen, or having to scrape up what's left of that person from the landing area, or attending funerals, or the disruption to a dz's daily activities that comes from an accident.

And all that is without even touching on the potential for mad mothers to push for regulation of our sport, the potential for lawsuits or even just having to explain to crying family members why Johnny went in.

Yes, you have a right to do whatever stupid stuff you want to do unless and until you are risking my life by your actions and choices. At that point, what you fly becomes my problem.

If Joe Jumper can't control the canopy he is flying he is risking my life. If he slams into me in the landing area because he can't stop or if he runs into me under canopy because he has not yet developed the situational awareness that is required to fly faster, smaller wings, my life has been irrevocably changed by his choices.

The Ferrari/teenage driver analogy doesn't wash with me. Try to think of it more like giving a five year old the keys to the Ferrari. Instead of that, we give them a bicycle with training wheels and we tell them to ride it only on the sidewalk or in the yard - this keeps them safe from traffic in the street and keeps those on the street from potentially running into them. Once they learn to ride it we take the training wheels off, allowing them to go faster. As they gain skill and maturity we allow them to range further, off the sidewalk and into traffic, until eventually they are ready for the keys to the car.

A novice jumper is like that five year old. First they fly big, slow parachutes - both to keep them safe on landing and to keep them out of the flow of experienced jumper traffic. Once they've learned to handle that then the training wheels can come off - they get a canopy that is a bit smaller and faster but still big and slow enough that they aren't flying with the fast traffic and also big and slow enough that they can safely land it in a bad situation. Once they've proven they can handle that and they decide they want to go faster... then it's time to move from the bicycle to the car.

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Give everybody the relavent information on safety, but then stop the nanny state and let them fuck up if they want to, its their call

Lots of new jumpers feel the same way you do. And then one day they're on the dropzone when their buddy hooks himself in. The aftermath of witnessing a serious injury or fatality (or even just knowing someone who went in) has caused countless jumpers to quit the sport. Why? Because until that point they didn't realize exactly what risks they were taking.

I think your tune will change after losing your first friend to his own choices and actions.

[skybytch 259]

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.... kinda had my attention there until you slipped into your namesake with the bytchy stuff.

Ah, but I must live up to my name. Sometimes it works.

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Talking about this here however wobbly it be is slightly more than a bitch.

Oh, I agree. If I didn't think that talking about it here was valuable I wouldn't waste my time doing it. My point is that it is only one part of what those of us who feel this way can and should do to change what we see as a problem.

We've got the leadership we have, good or bad, by our own action/inaction. It will only change if we make that change happen.

[Ron 7]

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i feel my point is actually quite a valid one, yet because it doesn't coincide exactly with yours, you say i'm a troll.... that seems to be the pattern on here, follow what everybody else is saying or you're a troll for making me angry

Your answer to why people call you a troll is the sentance above that quote:

"shall i cry like some of the religeous nut cases do on here?"

Or posts about students shitting themsevles...ect. You have a history of posting statements for no reason other than to start trouble.

You reap what you sow. If you act like a troll, expect to be called on it even when you are trying to be serious.

That said.

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think people should be given all the information to make safe decisions, tell people about wing loadings, tell them about all the dangers about small canopies, BUT then let them make their own decision on what to buy. If they then want to be stupid and buy a VX90 after being told not to, its their fault and they only have themselves to blame if they biff in

Ah, but not true. See this attitude lead to certain places refusing to treat skydivers that were hurt (Quincy Hospital for one). It has also lead to lawsuits where the DZO while not quilty still had to hire a lawyer to defend himself costing him money. It has lead to lawmakers trying to impose regulations on skydiving to the point that it could end skydiving at that DZ (Yazoo, MS.), and possible problems for the whole state (NV where a lawmaker wanted DZ's to have insurance that would cover accidents).

So while you "Play like a big boy" rules sound great, they cause plenty of problems.

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YOU are not my master, if i want to do something stupid, that is my decision

But it is also my right to not let you get on any airplane I own, or jump at any DZ I am in charge of. Also I have the right not being in the air with someone who is unsafe.

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If somebody (no matter how old) wants to go and buy a Lamborghini Diablo after only passing their test 2 weeks ago, are you also in favour of regulations being brought in to stop them? Its exactly the same as buying a canopy that is too fast for you

Its not even close to being the same, and that is part of your problem. The other is you are new to the sport.

Wanna talk cars? Sure. You can get a license to drive a car and run out and buy a Ferrari. But the one thing you still forget to think about is that a Ferrari also goes slow. A HP canopy does not. But you can't drive a Semi without a license and you can't ride a motorcycle without a license....even if you have a car license.

See your dream of being an adult is not held in any other sport.

Wanna race on the track? Gotta have saftey equipment and most tracks require you to prove you can handle it before they allow you to race with others.

SCUBA? Well you can't go on deep dives without higher than Open water, most places you can't do cavern dives without "Cavern" and you can't do cave without "Cave". Can't get a NITROX fill without the cert either.

Flying. Can't fly a high performance plane without a high performance endorsment, can't fly complex without a complex endorsement, can't fly a twin without a muti rating, can't fly in IMC without an IFR rating, can't fly above 18,000 MSL without an IFR rating, can't fly above 15,000 without O2....ect, ect.

No matter how much of an adult you THINK you are, you still can't do all of the above without proving you can handle it first.

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Give everybody the relavent information on safety, but then stop the nanny state and let them fuck up if they want to, its their call

Not even close to their call. If you wanna do what you want, get your own airplane with your own pilot,a nd jump onto your own land by YOURSELF...With health insurance...Then its all you.

Until then, you have to play nice with others and admit you don't know everything even if you think you do.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[diablopilot 2]

I disagree. There is plenty of responsible leadership, it's just that people won't listen to it.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[FrogNog 1]

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I disagree. There is plenty of responsible leadership, it's just that people won't listen to it.

Well put.

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Pull.