First Low (semi low) Pull

[azureriders 0]

Whoa, you guys were not joking about only adding one new thing at a time.

First thing Sunday I asked the DZO about a smaller rental. He said it was way pass due and he had just not had the time to talk to me about it. So on jump # 20 off I go from a 288 Manta down to the 260 Navigator (1.04:1).

Gear check goes as usual. I had some assistance turning on the Vigil, as apposed to the FXC on the manta rig. Noticed the mouth of the BOC was a little loose but it held the PC fine so I thought no big deal.

I am getting geared up when a coach that had coached me on some tracking dives asked me to jump base on a four way round. Now the right answer would probably have been that I am already jumping a new rig and need to pull high, but it never crossed my mind that I may actually go low so no big deal right.

Exit was very stable and the coach and another experienced jumper was docked shortly afterwards. The forth, who is working on his B card, never got to us but was right there. We are all quiet a bit bigger than he was and he was nervous about cranking up the speed to catch us and then going low.

We were to break at 5000, as this was my request and my first 4 way I was gone and hauling ass by 5100. Counted 4 seconds, arched waved and reached at 4000, oh shit NO HANDLE. By the time two fingers entered the BOC opening, Silver was already running through my mind. One finger went inside the PVC tube handle. That felt freaky but I tossed it anyway, extracting the finger on the way out as the rest of my hand held the handle.

My head goes back as soon as I feel line stretch to watch the opening and look for problems as I know I am nearing the hard deck, oh shit again, LINE TWIST. I quickly (probably to quick as I have been told) grabbed the rears and had the, two and half at most, line twist cleared almost instantly. My eyes left the canopy and in one motion made a check for traffic and to my altimeter. The needle had just passed 2000.

The heart was pounding as I have never been in the saddle any less than 3200 but all was good now. We were the first group out and had very little surface wind. The spot was great, so great that I actually had 'some' time to practice a flare or two after the initial controllability check. I had a little trouble keeping the canopy from landing, but with a few running steps everything was great.

Lessoned learned:
1) A full load, no room, first four way, etc, etc, is no reason not to have checked the handle before exit.
2) If I would have reached at 5000, I would have been in the saddle by 3000 with more time under the new canopy.
3) I jumped that rig three more times that day with no trouble, so I would have added only one new thing at a time, I could still have gotten in the, or another, four way with a familiar rig.

[NWFlyer 2]

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2) If I would have reached at 5000, I would have been in the saddle by 3000 with more time under the new canopy.

Thanks for sharing this experience. I do have one concern here; if you agreed to break off and track at 5,000, for you to do anything other than break off and track at 5,000 could put your fellow jumpers into danger. I hope you weren't suggesting that you pull at 5,000 if you'd agreed to break off and track at 5,000.

Plan the dive and dive the plan.

Great lessons learned and a great reminder that new gear can present all kinds of problems, large and small, that we don't anticipate. Having the luxury of time to deal with them makes a difference.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[justinb138 0]

I had something similar happen on Saturday, but I didn't get the main out.

1st jump of the day, 5-Way RW, broke at 5K, tracked, and went for the main a little above 3.5k. Couldn't get a grip on the handle, so gave it another try. I could touch it with my fingertips, but couldn't get a enough of a grip on it to pull. After the 2nd time I went for the reserve. Had a very nice reserve opening at about 1500 ft, did a practice flare, a quick look for the freebag, then set up to land. Stood it up on the DZ.
Freebag landed in the pond, and the reserve PC cap (Wings container) came off and landed in a field about 100 yds away.

Finally got it packed back up tonight.

[azureriders 0]

No, not the point I was trying to relay. I would not have been on the 4 way, MY FIRST 4 way, at the same time that I was jumping the new rig, for the FIRST time, then I could have pulled at 5 with time to practice with the new canopy.

[fueler 0]

so why is it at 23 jumps you are doing 4 way anything with other jumpers that dont have a coach rating?

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what!?

[hexadecimal 0]

The DZO told you that you were way past due for a downsize at 20 jumps?

[steveorino 7]

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so why is it at 23 jumps you are doing 4 way anything with other jumpers that dont have a coach rating?

My thoughts as well.

steveOrino

[Hawkins121 0]

288 manta - 260 nav is not a big deal. How long should he have stayed on the manta 288?

I havent been around the sport long but every day I jumped I heard about at least 1 person having a hard pull or at least trouble finding the hackey. Because of this I check my handle so much on the way up you might think i have OCD.

[azureriders 0]

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The DZO told you that you were way past due for a downsize at 20 jumps?

The DZO was the guy that talked me in on all my radio jumps, we have had many in depth canopy discusions and my landings and canopy control have always been good, (wish I could say the same for my freefall skills). On top of this I dont think he looked at it as so much of a downsize, just that he wanted to get me on the Navigator which has a zp top skin. He told me to expect a much more reactive canopy but the landing should actually be easier. That is exactly what happened. I was cautious all day with my turns, much quicker than the Manta. As for the landings, they all four where as good as I could expect and the flare was much easier to time. So I guess he knew what he was doing. As for the rest of the dive, like I said, probably not the smartest move I have ever made

[NelKel 0]

so why is it at 23 jumps you are doing 4 way anything with other jumpers that dont have a coach rating?

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My thoughts as well
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Once a student has been cleared for freefall by an Instructor, and is in the last catagorys of the ISP, they the student can take part on group freefall as long as one of the other jumpers has a coach rating. In his original post he stated that his coach asked him to be base with him on a 4 way.

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[canedraw4 0]

Nobody picked up on the fact that they where the first group out and he pulled at 4k? Not nice to be falling passed canopies.

[NelKel 0]

Yeah I caught that also, but didn't want to nit-pick it.I only intended to clarfy that the jump was with in the scope of the rules with a coach.
I also wouldn't go so far to say that downsizing from a 288 to a 260 ZP or not was a big deal as other have stated. I do not know his skill and his Instructor does. I fell that would also be a nit-pick.
He has learned his leason, about jumping new stuff, and about openly posting his experiences on this Board.

If I were to nit-pick the jump apart, I would fault the coach for allowing them to exit first with him pulling above 3k.

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[azureriders 0]

as for posting on this board, bash away, I have broad shoulders and dont offend easily and am very glad to learn from what ever expereince that I can.

As for exit order, we were the largest group on the plan and the groups behind us knew our plan and our planed opening alti.

Now I have no desire, nor the right, to argue with you more experienced guys, but based on other threads here about exit order, horizontal seperation is where its at and you should not rely on vertical seperation.

[billvon 2,425]

>Not nice to be falling passed canopies.

Doesn't really matter as long as you have exit separation. I open at 2500 and freefall past open canopies on almost every jump; the key is to be at least several hundred feet from them.

[jgarango 0]

I think that you have to re-check that information.

I am almost completly sure that according to USPA a student (no license yet) can only jump with coaches and instructors.

Anyone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Juan

[popsjumper 2]

From Section 2-1: Basic Safety Requirements and Waivers
Part E. Student skydivers
1. General [E]
a. All student training programs must be conducted under the direction and oversight of an appropriately rated USPA Instructor until the student is issued a USPA A license.
b. A person conducting, training, or supervising student jumps must hold a USPA instructional rating according to the requirements…..
6. Students training for group freefall
a. All student freefall training for group freefall jumps must be conducted by a USPA Coach under the supervision of a USPA Instructor.
b. All students engaging in group freefall jumps must be accompanied by a USPA Coach until the student has obtained a USPA A license.



From Section 4: USPA Integrated Student Program
Section Summary
An appropriately rated USPA Instructor must directly supervise each student jump until the student is cleared to self supervise in freefall during Category E. A USPA Coach may conduct freefall training and supervise jumps for those students in Categories E through H. Until the USPA A license, all student training remains the responsibility of the USPA Instructor.

Section Articles Category F-H
With the direct assistance of other qualified staff members, such as the USPA Coach, the USPA Instructor continues to supervise your training and monitor your progress during all remaining student jumps until you obtain your USPA A license.
The freefall portions of Categories F through H address group flying techniques and skills. Under the supervision of a USPA Instructor, A USPA Coach may train you for the freefall skills in these last three categories and accompany you in freefall.


But I don't see anything in there about more freefall participants other than the student and the Instructor/Coach.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[azureriders 0]

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A USPA Coach may conduct freefall training and supervise jumps for those students in Categories E through H

And yes, I am within these categories. I hope to finish up and take my A exam on my next trip to the DZ. Basically all I have left is the 2 swoop and dock jumps.

[jgarango 0]

Yes but what you are quoting does not say anything about the student jumping with anyone else than a coach or an instructor.

I do remember from my coach course that the course evaluator told us that anyone not licensed yet can only jump with coaches and instructors

It does not matter if he/she has been clear to jump solo.

Juan

[LawnDart21 0]

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And yes, I am within these categories.

AAfter reading this thread, I'm kind of surprised at the fact that a coach would allow a student to do anything other than a solo with a new rig on? Maybe I am being overly conservative? But I think it down right foolish to give a student a new piece of gear to use and then put them on a 4 way on the same jump.

The issue you described in not being able to find your PC handle right away is, well not an uncommon experience for some students on new gear. The fact that your coach didn't recognize the need to have you do a solo first to feel out the gear really baffles me.

Another point, was anyone supervising this coach/jump on the ground? (Not that its required, persay). I work on a busy DZ, tandems and AFF all day, yet our DZO always seems to know what each student is doing and what their jumping. No way that jump would have occured on our DZ.

Anyways, I'm just curious what other people think about new gear and a 4 way on the same student jump. Inappropriate or am I being too conservative?

Edit to add: if the response is that the coach didnt know you had new gear, then that is big problem. Your coach should know exactly what gear your jumping, including size of main and reserve canopies on every jump, otherwise they are not doing thier job.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[KNewman 0]

Hey LD

Not that I have the experience to say anything on this issue. I feel that (and have been taught that) do not add anything to your jump routine until you are totally comfortable with it. In this case, the jumper should of familiarized themselves with the gear first, then moved on to the RW stuff.

My instructors always kept me in line by introducing new things in small doses, and I feel that this is a SAFE way to add anything to your jump routine.

Blue Skies and Stand-up Landings!!!!!!

[LawnDart21 0]

I can't see any coach knowingly letting a student do a 4 way with new gear. Which would lead me to think:

1) The coach didn't know the gear his (or her) student was jumping on the jump. HUGE PROBLEM IMHO.
or
2) The coach did know and didn't think it was a big deal to let an unlicensed student jump new gear and go on thier 1st 4-way. Another HUGE PROBLEM IMHO.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[Buried 0]

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The DZO told you that you were way past due for a downsize at 20 jumps?

a 288 manta -> 260. assuming he's an avg sized guy that isn't a problem if he's had good landings. Seriously, think about what you learned on at SDC. Many steps above the 288!
I would be more worried with the 4 way (depending on others exp) and not planning to do practice throws on new gear

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[azureriders 0]

In the defense of the Coach and DZO
The DZO OKed the new rig based on my piloting skills and was quiet confident that it was a good move. I have always been a good student and listen well and have been taught about going slow and not adding two many things at one time. The day was very busy and maybe he did not go over and over about how to treat this new rig but he shouldn't have to, I had been taught it before.

The Coach simply asked me to fly base with him and couple friends. As I stated before, he has jumped with me and knew my skill level. This was not a paid coach jump and although he was accompanying me, and he did go through a gear check, he did not know about the new canopy.

Now I know that you can argue that the DZO should know my jump before giving me a new rig and the Coach should know my rig before giving me a new jump, and I can appreciate this opinion, but the fault lies with me. I have gained the trust of both these people as being a good student and learning my lessons well. I have also come to believe, a large part due to this forum, that my safety is my OWN responsibility. I was taught better than this!!

In my defense, not that this is a good excuse
The DZ has 4 rigs with mantas, for one reason or another the same one has not always been available and I have jumped 2 of them alot. The rigs are practically identical, as is the new rig in question other than the canopy. The fact that I have changed back and forth between rig 1 and 2, somehow eased the seriousness, in my head, of going to rig 3.

Again, I have learned my lesson, as well as gained some verry useful experience. The main lesson was stated in the first line of my first post. In so many words "Don't add two many things at once"

I know I have opened a whole new can of worms about why the DZO/Coach did not know what the Coach/DZO was up to, but please keep this on track, this is my fault, not theirs. I posted this for some input on MY actions, which I have got and appreciate it. I did not post this to turn it into a bashing of my DZ, just bash on me and have fun at it.

One last point
This must be my fault, if not then what kind of example am I setting for the next time I goof. Could I be the one to blame someone else if I get hurt, I don't think so

edit to add: IMO no one here was out of line at all, and 'bashing on my DZ' may have been a little harsh. Just wanted to get my point across

[LawnDart21 0]

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Now I know that you can argue that the DZO should know my jump before giving me a new rig and the Coach should know my rig before giving me a new jump, and I can appreciate this opinion

You were not a licensed fun jumper on that jump, you were a student, a student of that dropzone. The DZO and the coach that put you on that jump were responsible to ensure the appropriateness of the jump you were making using thier gear.

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The Coach simply asked me to fly base with him and couple friends.

Then he brought you into his (or her) skydive, and irregardless of how inappropriate a 4 way may or may not be to do with a student, your coach assumed responsibility for your safety by placing you on that jump, to the extent any instructor can be, ie, knowing the gear you are using and making sure the jump wasnt beyond your abilities to perform safely.

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This must be my fault, if not then what kind of example am I setting for the next time I goof. Could I be the one to blame someone else if I get hurt, I don't think so

Once you get your A License, yes, I would agree with you. You can blame yourself all you want once your licensed. As a student, your instructors share the responisbility for your well being. To catch the mistakes you don't even know your making, like this one.

--
My other ride is a RESERVE.

[azureriders 0]

Quote

Quote

Now I know that you can argue that the DZO should know my jump before giving me a new rig and the Coach should know my rig before giving me a new jump, and I can appreciate this opinion

You were not a licensed fun jumper on that jump, you were a student, a student of that dropzone. The DZO and the coach that put you on that jump were responsible to ensure the appropriateness of the jump you were making using thier gear.

Quote

The Coach simply asked me to fly base with him and couple friends.

Then he brought you into his (or her) skydive, and irregardless of how inappropriate a 4 way may or may not be to do with a student, your coach assumed responsibility for your safety by placing you on that jump, to the extent any instructor can be, ie, knowing the gear you are using and making sure the jump wasnt beyond your abilities to perform safely.

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This must be my fault, if not then what kind of example am I setting for the next time I goof. Could I be the one to blame someone else if I get hurt, I don't think so

Once you get your A License, yes, I would agree with you. You can blame yourself all you want once your licensed. As a student, your instructors share the responisbility for your well being. To catch the mistakes you don't even know your making, like this one.

Yes, agreed, 100%, no arguement, but the point of another thread, not the point of this one. Thats all I was saying