Stunts; pissing on our sport to make money.

[catfishhunter 1]

HUH?

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doing your homework" and prepping for a stunt is what makes you a real stuntman in that discipline. The training is where it's

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Now. That being said, I do think that this stunt was well-rehearsed

You spoke round in circles and trying to make a point but ended up making the same point your agruing against.

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But saying someone can automatically do this because they're a "professional stuntman" is simply ridiculous.

Who said that?

Only part of being a proffessional that had any bearing on this was the fact he knows how to assemble a team. Plan the stunt practice the stunt then perform the stunt. Being a proffessional does give one an advatange in being able to accomplish such a stunt but WTF did your drivig a car through a wall anolgoy have to do with anything?

Seems like you wanted to point out your a member of SAG and sound all important like and to argue for the sake of arguing and all you did is talk in cricles and prove what myself and others have been saying all along.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[relyon 0]

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Who said that?

You did ...

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... Sounds pretty proffessional. ...

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Only part of being a proffessional that had any bearing on this was the fact he knows how to assemble a team. ... Being a proffessional does give one an advatange in being able to accomplish such a stunt ...

I think LloydDobbler's point was that the term "professional" means he was paid for it, and I tend to agree. I'm a professional offshore helicopter pilot - I get paid for doing that sort of work. I'm not a professional CRWdog even though I'm highly experienced at it - no one pays me to do CRW.

YMMV.

Bob

[LloydDobbler 2]

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But saying someone can automatically do this because they're a "professional stuntman" is simply ridiculous.

Who said that?

Only part of being a proffessional that had any bearing on this was the fact he knows how to assemble a team. Plan the stunt practice the stunt then perform the stunt. Being a proffessional does give one an advatange in being able to accomplish such a stunt but WTF did your drivig a car through a wall anolgoy have to do with anything?

Seems like you wanted to point out your a member of SAG and sound all important like and to argue for the sake of arguing and all you did is talk in cricles and prove what myself and others have been saying all along.

Actually, no. I've been posting on here long enough that if I had wanted to point out that I was a member of SAG to inflate my own ego in some way, I could have done so a long time ago. And it's a pretty crappy union when you get right down to it, so it's not something I admit to very often.

The only reason I even brought up my own experience was to support the fact that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to "professional stuntmen." Maybe you do as well...but from the way you're talking, it doesn't sound like it. Either way, I've seen enough people put down on this board by someone saying, "What do you know? You're a 100-jump wonder" to know that it's a good idea to point out your experience, when you have it. So I did.

Essentially, yes, I am arguing both sides of the point. I agree with you, but not in how you got there. I'll spell it out for you: what I was trying to point out is that about 90% of your posts in this thread reference the argument, "But he's a professional"...as if that's important. It really amounts to a hill of beans. Once you throw yourself out of an airplane, the fact that you've gotten paid to do a stunt before really means jack shit. Skydiving is a great equalizer, in that sense.

(As far as organizing the stunt goes, being a "professional" has no bearing on that, either. That's the stunt coordinator's job. Sorry, try again. Either way, it's irrelevant in this case, because it really doesn't take any experience to recruit people to jump with you, as anyone who's just off their "A" can attest.)

To continue connecting the dots, my point with the car analogy was that just because you can do one stunt doesn't make you at all qualified to attempt another in a different discipline. It's comparing apples to oranges. I could have also added, the guy who does precision driving like that is no more qualified to do a skydiving stunt like this one, without the proper experience.

Ultimately, in the end, I agree with your conclusion. It obviously seems like Travis had enough experience & rehearsal to pull the stunt off safely. But if you're relying on the "professional stuntman" thing to get you to that conclusion, you're misguided. Being a professional stuntperson means nothing here. Once you jump out of an airplane, it doesn't really matter all that much what you've gotten paid to do before in your life. You can be a Fortune 500 CEO or an iron-worker - either way, you're dead until you pull.

So let's look at Travis as a skydiver here, and leave the professional stunts arguments out of it. That's all I'm saying.

Signatures are the new black.

[kelpdiver 2]

so you used a thousand words to say you'd be more impressed with the phrase "well experienced stuntman" instead of "professional stuntman." That was the intent of the people writing it.

Sure you're not with the writers guild rather than the actors?

[DSE 3]

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So let's look at Travis as a skydiver here, and leave the professional stunts arguments out of it. That's all I'm saying.

Working on the other side of the camera from you, we see a lot of :"professional stuntmen." You might take umbrage with the term, but there are people trained in falls, firesuits, fight choreography, taking hits, drivers, "fall guys" if you will....They are physically, emotionally, mentally more able than the average actor in challenging situations (aside from the insurance issues).
These people are called "professional stuntmen," not actors playing at their own little stunts.

Travis is trained to take a fall, be mentally alert and aware, and physically/emotionally at the top of his game regardless of what challenging situations he may be placed in either by his own mental mechanics or those of the stunt coordinator. In many cases, Travis is his own stunt coordinator relying on others to oversee and find flaws with his stunt designs, such as the one he performed in Puerto Rico.
IMO (just as flying camera ops are often viewed as "professional stuntment), the fact that Travis is trained in the physical, emotional, and mental disciplines that allow him to take the risks he takes, would designate him a "professional stuntman." Dave Major is a skydiver who refers to himself as a "professional stuntman" and skydiving is one of his "stunts" on his resume.
We're discussing semantics, but given Travis' unique training for performing "stunts", it's a semantic somewhat worth debating.

[LloydDobbler 2]

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so you used a thousand words to say you'd be more impressed with the phrase "well experienced stuntman" instead of "professional stuntman." That was the intent of the people writing it.

Sure you're not with the writers guild rather than the actors?

Yeah, sorry 'bout that. It was a long day yesterday...I was exhausted, just started writing, and it just kept going. Apologies for that one.

But I do think being an "experienced stuntman" really doesn't have anything to do with it, either. Sure, you can keep your cool in intense situations...but most skydivers I know with 100 jumps really don't have an issue with keeping calm in intense situations. But YMMV on that one, I guess.

Signatures are the new black.

[kelpdiver 2]

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But I do think being an "experienced stuntman" really doesn't have anything to do with it, either. Sure, you can keep your cool in intense situations...but most skydivers I know with 100 jumps really don't have an issue with keeping calm in intense situations. But YMMV on that one, I guess.

I've never had a malfunction - so I'm untested really. Many others with 100 jumps haven't either. Who's to say how they'll keep their cool? 100 jumps without notable incident is really the same experience 100 times. This guy, otoh, had done a wide variety of challenging stunts and that is the value pointed to.

With how it went, you or I could have pulled it off. But the organization of the training and the process is the key element for success, and that we are less likely to bring.

[LloydDobbler 2]

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So let's look at Travis as a skydiver here, and leave the professional stunts arguments out of it. That's all I'm saying.

Working on the other side of the camera from you, we see a lot of :"professional stuntmen." You might take umbrage with the term, but there are people trained in falls, firesuits, fight choreography, taking hits, drivers, "fall guys" if you will....They are physically, emotionally, mentally more able than the average actor in challenging situations (aside from the insurance issues).
These people are called "professional stuntmen," not actors playing at their own little stunts.

Travis is trained to take a fall, be mentally alert and aware, and physically/emotionally at the top of his game regardless of what challenging situations he may be placed in either by his own mental mechanics or those of the stunt coordinator. In many cases, Travis is his own stunt coordinator relying on others to oversee and find flaws with his stunt designs, such as the one he performed in Puerto Rico.
IMO (just as flying camera ops are often viewed as "professional stuntment), the fact that Travis is trained in the physical, emotional, and mental disciplines that allow him to take the risks he takes, would designate him a "professional stuntman." Dave Major is a skydiver who refers to himself as a "professional stuntman" and skydiving is one of his "stunts" on his resume.
We're discussing semantics, but given Travis' unique training for performing "stunts", it's a semantic somewhat worth debating.

Hey, DSE - I know you've got experience with it as well, and I don't at all disagree with you re: the merits of professional stuntpeople. I don't take issue with the term - I just wasn't aware of Travis having done much stunt training for all-around stuntwork (like high falls, fight choreography, etc). Googling him and "stunts," all I see is info on Motocross. Which is impressive, no doubt...but it leads me to not think of him as a trained person who does "stunts" for a living. Looks to me like he does freestyle motocross for a living. Seems a lot different than someone like Dave Major, who has training in *many* different disciplines.

If he's done all sorts of stunt training, I'll stand corrected. I was unaware he's got experience acting as his own stunt coordinator, or performing stunts outside of motocross.

But I still don't find it all that relevant. Yeah, I'm arguing semantics, but I think most skydivers with more than even 100 jumps are well-trained at being "physically, emotionally, mentally more able in challenging situations." It only gets better as they gain more experience.

Granted, I haven't been around all that long. But I think skydiving experience is what's relevant here.

The same thing was argued when we were discussing Race Price - many have argued that because he was a trained/experienced ski jumper, he could handle these situations better. I know you didn't weigh in on that aspect of the discussion, but to me (and a lot of others), being an expert at another sport does not necessarily make much difference in this sport (and in some cases, may even be a hindrance). That's a matter of opinion, of course (as is all of this).

I guess I'm interested in exploring that question more: how much relevance does outside experience have? It'll obviously affect some things...but after a certain number of jumps, does it really make that much of a difference? (Dunno if asking that question would count as derailing this discussion even further...perhaps I should move it to another thread.)

Signatures are the new black.

[LloydDobbler 2]

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With how it went, you or I could have pulled it off. But the organization of the training and the process is the key element for success, and that we are less likely to bring.

You think?

If we were talking a big-way stunt, I'd be likely to agree. But weren't there only 3 people on the jump? Seems to me that it isn't too hard to set up some rehearsal/training jumps. And keep jumping, analyzing the vid, and doing it again until you feel confident with it. I would think almost anyone would/could do that, 100 jumps or 10000 jumps. Stuntperson or not.

But then, there's always the really-crazy types...).

Signatures are the new black.

[leewilcox 0]

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In Reply To
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Are these the two essential arguments of the original post of this thread?
1) Isolated, compensated, publicized, "unlawful" skydiving stunts with a published video/photo record harm the sport of skydiving.
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Yes.
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In Reply To
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2) Repeated, gratis, undocumented, "unlawful" skydives without published video/photo record do not harm the sport of skydiving.
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No... These can harm our sport too, however, are less likely to do so. My premise was more, "if you choose to intentionally break an FAR, and we all do sometimes to some degree, don't brag about it."

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Now that we have clarified the argument, my position is that #1 is unlikely to harm the sport in general, even if Travis had died. My view is the FAA staff is able to distinguish between a skydiving stunt and regular skydiving operations.

I argue that #2 (the one you seem willing to condone) is really much more likely to harm skydiving. These activities are performed by skydivers at regular skydiving operations. I feel the FAA would be more inclined to take actions that would harm the sport of skydiving in response to these.

I believe that what we do as skydivers at our designated drop zones, week in and week out, is what will make the most difference in anything the FAA does regarding regulation and enforcement.

In short, I think you have it reversed.

"Nothing exists except atoms and empty space; everything else is opinion" - Democritus

[tdog 0]

You have a very compelling argument. I could be swayed to agree with your argument.

Here are some thoughts.

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Now that we have clarified the argument, my position is that #1 is unlikely to harm the sport in general, even if Travis had died. My view is the FAA staff is able to distinguish between a skydiving stunt and regular skydiving operations.

Maybe for the average joe skydiver. But what about a jump into a stadium. What about a waiver for operations outside of the norm. I feel the more we publicly "play against the rules" the less confidence the FAA will have when it comes to giving us some extra wiggle room when it is needed.

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I believe that what we do as skydivers at our designated drop zones, week in and week out, is what will make the most difference in anything the FAA does regarding regulation and enforcement.

Without trying to sound like a childhood kid: "Only if you get caught." The more advanced argument being, if we found FAA violations occurring regularly, and found them to be causing incidents often, then we would have a duty to self regulate change. Looking at the current list of fatalities for the last few years, it will be hard to show enough incidents where breaking an FAR was a contributing factor.

Your argument is compelling, and I would say, any time we disrespect the rules enough for the FAA to know - because of complaints by other pilots, injuries linked to FAR busts, or public stunts - we are jeopardizing the ability for our peers in the future to skydive.

[NickDG 23]

Below is a link to the B.A.S.E. jump into the Grand Canyon Travis made on a dirt bike.

John Carta was the first to ride a motorcycle off an object on a B.A.S.E. jump in the 1980s. Rod Pack made the first chute-less jump in 1965. There is certainly something to being first, no matter the motivation. So admire Columbus, if you must be a hero worshipper, not the endless stream who followed in his wake.

Travis is counting on a new generation of impressionable teenagers who will think both his stunts are brand new and cool. He's using both sports, B.A.S.E. & skydiving to advance himself - not the sports. I could almost abide this if he'd said, "I've modernized this stunt," and then gave some back-story on those who came before him. But it's just "him" all the time . . . and that's not furthering anything, it's just being a gloryhound . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8pH5jgSuP8

NickD BASE 194

[relyon 0]

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... Rod Pack made the first chute-less jump in 1965. ...

While it may have been the first planned chuteless jump, but it was definitely not the first.

My 84 year old uncle piloted a B-17G out Foggia, Italy during late 1944. During the time he spent in a prison camp in Barth, Germany (sometime between Dec 1944 and May 1945), he personally spoke with a bomb crewmember who had no chute at all. He has a autographed picture with him sitting next to the guy in the prison camp infirmary.

Apparently, the guy's A/C (a B-24, IIRC) was hit by flak and he was thrown clear while it disintegrated. He didn't have his chute on at the time, since they were bulky and interfered with operating the guns (ball turret gunners didn't wear them in the turret at all, due to space constraints). He found himself in freefall at 24000', certain he was going to die.

Amazingly, he didn't. At the time his A/C was hit, he was returning from a mission and was over the Bavarian Alps. He fell into deep snowdrifts near the top of a very steep mountain. He was seriously injured when the Germans found him, but they didn't shoot him. The guy was quite the celebrity, which may be why they spared him.

Whether the incident was actually the first chuteless jump or not is anyone's guess. I do know my uncle has never been fond of skydiving. His first and only jump was over Poland in Dec 1944 under less than ideal circumstances. The whole crew got out ok, but his copilot's chute totaled and he bounced. Everyone else wound up in prison camps until the war ended.

Bob

[BMFin 0]

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Below is a link to the B.A.S.E. jump into the Grand Canyon Travis made on a dirt bike.

John Carta was the first to ride a motorcycle off an object on a B.A.S.E. jump in the 1980s. Rod Pack made the first chute-less jump in 1965. There is certainly something to being first, no matter the motivation. So admire Columbus, if you must be a hero worshipper, not the endless stream who followed in his wake.

Travis is counting on a new generation of impressionable teenagers who will think both his stunts are brand new and cool. He's using both sports, B.A.S.E. & skydiving to advance himself - not the sports. I could almost abide this if he'd said, "I've modernized this stunt," and then gave some back-story on those who came before him. But it's just "him" all the time . . . and that's not furthering anything, it's just being a gloryhound . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8pH5jgSuP8

NickD BASE 194

Hey NickD !

Im very sorry it didnt work out for you..

Im sure it pisses you off that this Travis Pastrana guy whos got only a fraction of the jumps you have comes and pulls off a stunt like this and gets wide media coverage plus prehaps makes a few bucks out of it..

I really dont know what should I say to make you feel better..

But even if you really dont think this stunt was worth the attention its getting.. Why are you so obsessed about this shit that you have to go and write DZ.com that "this travis is such a lame ass looser gloryhound.." ?

[DSE 3]

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Travis is counting on a new generation of impressionable teenagers who will think both his stunts are brand new and cool. He's using both sports, B.A.S.E. & skydiving to advance himself - not the sports.
NickD BASE 194

He's using motorcycles, rally cars, monster trucks, skateboards, surfboards, BASE, skydiving(and combinations of same), in a similar manner and relying on the same crowds as anyone who has ever worn a Red Bull logo in a stunt or sport displayed to the general public.

Does Red Bull sponsorship="unqualified gloryhound?"

[Zing 2]

Pffffffffft ... reinventing the wheel is such a mundane activity, and so is redoing "stunts" that have been done repeatedly in the past.

Zing Lurks

[pchapman 262]

Re Nick dG

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Im sure it pisses you off that this Travis Pastrana guy whos got only a fraction of the jumps you have comes and pulls off a stunt like this and gets wide media coverage

I'll allow for someone who is historically minded (like Nick dG) or has a more of a scientific rather than a marketing mentality, to get just a little offended by stunt people who don't seem to appropriately credit those who came before them. In a scientific paper one would cite all the previous related stunts and how they were similar or different from one's own.

But it isn't science, it is marketing and self promotion.

I haven't checked to what degree Travis publicly acknowledges that others have done the stunt before. The expn.go.com site article does mention that Travis is not the first, so it is encouraging that the concept has gotten out to the media.

(Travis had an interesting variation in hook up method, that actually puts more of the onus on his buddies, who weren't there just to hold the chute like for others. Maybe we skydivers should recognize Scott Palmer too, for being the active hookup guy.)

It's not always about being the first. Last time I did a good swoop in front of spectators at the DZ I thought it was a damn good swoop, even though thousands of others have done even better swoops.

Travis did a good stunt anyway.

But I upset at the terrible example Travis set. The pictures clearly show that he threw away the Red Bull can in freefall. Aren't there littering fines in the US? Even in Puerto Rico? People will think skydivers are a bunch of crazy litterbugs...

[NickDG 23]

>>you have to go and write DZ.com that "this travis is such a lame ass looser gloryhound.." ?
>>> Does Red Bull sponsorship="unqualified gloryhound?"
I didn't write "lame ass looser" gloryhound. The term "gloryhound" alone says it all and doesn't need all those preceding adjectives.

I also didn’t say "unqualified" gloryhound. So you two can stop putting words in my mouth.

Look, we all have a "take" on things. Yours is formed by your experiences as mine are. Like some others here I was involved in both sports before the "masses" found us. Before anyone cared or understood what either sport was all about. And you know what? It was, in many ways, better then. In those days both sports only attracted those who really had the fire in their bellies. The ones who could bring themselves to jump from an airplane without being attached to an "expert" and in BASE before there were real BASE rigs, real BASE canopies, or much BASE knowledge - just old cobbled together skydiving junk and a dream.

Your ability to do the things you can today in the sky didn’t get bestowed on you by someone who makes soft drinks. The way was paved in blood by a bunch of jumpers you never heard of and probably never will. And that's were your loyalty should lie.

So yes my experience tells me both skydiving and B.A.S.E. are sort of sacred things, and I know that may sound "quaint" to you. But when I see people today tread on the past like it never happened, when I see people trying to make a name for themselves by pretending they invented the thing, when I see corporations like Red Bull using us to further their bottom line, and so easily enlisting jumpers to help them do it, and when I see how just how easy some of you are to defend it, I'm going to say something about it. That's my take.

Some of you are big on coming at me with, "that's in the past, and this is the future" but that's a child's answer who has no past to draw on. You'll change your mind someday. Thirty years from now, it's possible, you'll be having this same dialogue with someone who's never heard of Red Bull.

I don’t mind at all you don’t agree with me, I do mind when you feel you have to resort to saying I'm "obsessed" and things like that. So come at me with facts, tell me why you feel the way you do, tell me why our past is no longer relevant to our future, give me the benefit of your experience and how it relates to modern times. I'll gladly wait the thirty years it will take you to get to that point . . .

NickD BASE 194

[DSE 3]

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>>you have to go and write DZ.com that "this travis is such a lame ass looser gloryhound.." ?<<

>>> Does Red Bull sponsorship="unqualified gloryhound?"<<<

I didn't write "lame ass looser" gloryhound. The term "gloryhound" alone says it all and doesn't need all those preceding adjectives.

I also didn’t say "unqualified" gloryhound. So you two can stop putting words in my mouth.

Nick, I'm no fan of the "energy drink" mindset that some of the skydivers and BASE jumpers have. Combining the overwhelming number of posts in this thread that state "Travis was unqualified for this skydive" in a variety of words coupled with your use of "gloryhound" is the idea comes from. Didn't mean to insert words in your mouth.
Point is, he's a media star with tremendous talents. He didn't become what he is because of Red Bull or any other product. He's talented in physically challenging situations. Regardless of some of the silliness in this thread, some of us are more adept and able to adapt. Travis clearly is at a stage in his life where he can do this sort of thing, and he happens to be sponsored by an energy drink company amongst many others. I'm really surprised that folks aren't ragging on Red Bull for encouraging athletes to take such extreme risks, vs attacking a talented, creative kid for his adventures on the ground and in the air.
Remove all the hyperbole and angst, and you end up with a spotlight on a kid landing under a parachute in front of millions of fans. I just don't see that as a bad thing. Certainly not as ugly as some of the demo videos we see posted that have bad biffs or flags being dragged in the mud, or worse.
My only wonder is the same one Travis mentions in the OP; were laws actually broken, or was the FAA cool with this. Seems that's the only negative left to ponder now that the stunt is complete?

[tdog 0]

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Below is a link to the B.A.S.E. jump into the Grand Canyon Travis made on a dirt bike.

3,2,1, Cya.

I started this thread to discuss public/publicity stunts in general (NOT JUST ONE STUNT/ NOT ONE PERSON), that intentionally violate FAA laws...

Now the thread (which I don't mind) has shifted it's focus to one stuntman - and his other stunts...

All threads shift, I am ok with it.

For the record, I argued a strong point, that in my heart I only believe 75% as strongly as I posted here. But I hope some of us took away the token:

"If I am going to break the law, how much could I be hurting my peers, now and in the future, by my own actions?"

That is why I started this thread.

Now go and discuss the grand canyon, this thread has taken it's course.

[grimmie 177]

I was driving to the DZ today and almost crashed! KROQ in Los Angeles interviewed Travis this morning on the "Kevin and Bean Show".

He said the scene in "Point Break" inspired him and the FAA said they would look the other way for this stunt. He went to Puerto Rico to pull it off, telling the pilot they were doing a Mr. Bill jump.

It was a good interview, he is very well spoken, He never did mention his pals by name that jumped with him though, however gave them high praise.

He also didn't mention how they saved him on deployment. The DJ's pumped his Thrillbillies show.

I'm still here at Perris, and so far 100 tattooed wanna be's haven't shown up yet for "one last speed star of the summer, bra!"

[teamlf 0]

Awesome

[diablopilot 2]

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I'm still here at Perris, and so far 100 tattooed wanna be's haven't shown up yet for "one last speed star of the summer, bra!

Try being a Tandem Instructor, you'll get them shortly, I have.

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and the FAA said they would look the other way for this stunt.

Yeah, bullshit, unless hes got it in writing.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[yeyo 1]

Bumping this old thread...
Did a search and Im surprised it hasnt came up yet.
Another chuteless, midair-hookup jump by Scott Palmer for the movie Jackss 3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=972exoFhP9M


edit: I apologize if I didnt find this when I searched

HISPA #93
DS #419.5

[cpoxon 0]

Quote

Bumping this old thread...
Did a search and Im surprised it hasnt came up yet.
Another chuteless, midair-hookup jump by Scott Palmer for the movie Jackss 3.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=972exoFhP9M


edit: I apologize if I didnt find this when I searched

Dunno if this is the same?

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live