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Marisan

HP From an Old Fart

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To all those guys that are the lonely voices in the wilderness trying to stop the young ones getting in over their head, I salute you.
To all those trying to train the young ones to prevent them killing themselves I salute you.
To all those guys that can swoop safely I admire your skills.

To all those people selling canopies to people that can't handle them, you stand condemned by your actions.
To all those in authority that allow this carnage to continue, you stand condemned by your actions.
To all those making canopies that push and push and push the limits , you stand condemned by your actions.

To all the people that have supported me in this thread, I thank you all.

I'll leave this now until the next injury or fatality caused either by an inexperienced jumper on an HP Canopy or an experienced jumper that is unknowingly in over their head.

Then I'll say " I told you so"

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I'll leave this now until the next injury or fatality caused either by an inexperienced jumper on an HP Canopy or an experienced jumper that is unknowingly in over their head.

Then I'll say " I told you so"



You may as well get 'er done now. You know it's coming. Probably sooner rather than later. Call me a cynic if you like.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I'll leave this now until the next injury or fatality caused either by an inexperienced jumper on an HP Canopy or an experienced jumper that is unknowingly in over their head.

Then I'll say " I told you so"



You may as well get 'er done now. You know it's coming. Probably sooner rather than later. Call me a cynic if you like.



No, I call you a realist. Something that is sadly lacking in what I once called a sport.

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You may as well get 'er done now. You know it's coming. Probably sooner rather than later. Call me a cynic if you like.



"Cynic"!!! I think now that this thread has been read, we should be good. I expect no more carnage. Whew! I'm glad that's over.

Blue Skies and no more Black Death...
B|
Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

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.
To all those guys that can swoop safely I admire your skills.

You can't say that and then say this:
Quote


To all those making canopies that push and push and push the limits , you stand condemned by your actions.



It just doesn't make sense.



IMO, sure it does. "Safely" being the operative word.
Sucks to give/sell someone a tool they can't operate safely.

OTOH, how in the hell is a manufacturer to know who can operate those tools safely? I dunno.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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You may as well get 'er done now. You know it's coming. Probably sooner rather than later. Call me a cynic if you like.



"Cynic"!!!



I stand accused and convicted.
[:/]




:P
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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>IMO, sure it does. "Safely" being the operative word.

Agreed. But the reason people can safely swoop canopies is that other people pushed the limits.

Right after I started the DZO bought a very expensive new swooping canopy - a Monarch 190. No one else was allowed to jump it. It was that dangerous.

Then some people pushed the limits (and got hurt) and kept doing that until they learned how to land the things. Nowadays newly minted A license jumpers buy Monarch 190's. Has the canopy changed? No. But people have - and people actually have more canopy skills earlier nowadays both due to necessity and improvements in education. Those improvements came at a price, though.

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Why do the people pushing the limits of canopy design have to be evil and unsafe but the hot-shot you see at the pond is a saint?

Someday I would like to meet this HP parachute manufacturing money tycoon you old guys are so convinced exists. I want to have a conversation with the evil distributors who push small parachutes on students like a heroin dealer giving a free sample to teenagers to get them hooked.

It's like you look at skydiving as a partially enlightened whuffo who still thinks the perfect answer to safety is out there somewhere. For as long as it will exist, people will be retarded and turn too low. It is our job as instructors to help prevent that from happening. But it still is going to happen, more than you or anyone else wants. I am a strong believer in canopy courses and canopy flight safety education. I have been teaching paragliding and mostly speed flying for years now. My glider size recommendations for beginners and even advanced students are from an industry average very large. I believe canopy safety education is the most important thing in human flight, but I don't find vestigial perspectives based on decade-old notions of perfect safety very helpful.

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:o
Waaaaay off base there, guy.

Read my post again...

Quote

IMO, sure it does. "Safely" being the operative word.
Sucks to give/sell someone a tool they can't operate safely.

OTOH, how in the hell is a manufacturer to know who can operate those tools safely? I dunno.



But to reply to your overstatements:

"Someday I would like to meet this HP parachute manufacturing money tycoon you old guys are so convinced exists. I want to have a conversation with the evil distributors who push small parachutes on students like a heroin dealer giving a free sample to teenagers to get them hooked. "

Read the ads. Compare how many are related to moderately-sized canopies and how many are related to the hot rods?

Do some ask about experience before the sale? Yes. Do they have the time and the resources to follow up on that? No.

If YOU sold that hot rod to the 50-jump wonder, go look in the mirror...it would be YOU that is that "money tycoon".

Since you went to such an extreme, I'll ask...how many heroin dealers advertise that they have any other than the "best".

Thanks for the reference to "you old guys". You obviously have no clue as to who all is pushing for moderation in downsizing progression.

If you'd read and attempt to digest what's being said, you may find that there's some logical reasoning behind it.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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IMO, sure it does. "Safely" being the operative word.



Agreed. But the reason people can safely swoop canopies is that other people pushed the limits.



You say that like those who pushed the limits did it UNsafely and safely swooping canopies only came about after the fact. In the big scheme of things, I would somewhat disagree. "Somewhat" because there were, and are, many who indeed do it without a lot of thought about safety.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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I'll leave this now until the next injury or fatality ...
Then I'll say " I told you so"



That is the take away from the OP. They post passionate rhetoric about an issue but take no action themselves. They are aware of the problem and know that it exists at their nearby DZ's, but do nothing to help other than condemn people on an internet forum.

The OP appears to be stuck on the first part of...
"Think globally, act locally".

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Compare how many are related to moderately-sized canopies and how many are related to the hot rods?



and how many of those are flown by 50-jump-wonders? and how many with guys with thousands of jumps!?
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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Waaaaay off base there, guy.

Read my post again...




I was more replying to the OP, not just your post.

Quote

Read the ads. Compare how many are related to moderately-sized canopies and how many are related to the hot rods?

Since you went to such an extreme, I'll ask...how many heroin dealers advertise that they have any other than the "best".



OF COURSE the manufactures use their competition-winning canopies as a flagship and claim to be the "best". What "action sports" company does not?

A Ford car commercial does not show the base model Taurus drifting around corners and setting records on the track, they show the highest-end Mustang with all options and a professional driver driving like only a handful of drivers in the world can drive. They are not selling mostly $80,000 Convertibles, they are selling their BRAND.

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OF COURSE the manufactures use their competition-winning canopies as a flagship and claim to be the "best".



Agreement here. Indeed they do. And it doesn't make it the best thing to do for the safety of our youngsters. Faster is better, right?

What "action sports" company does not?


And it doesn't make it the best thing to do for the safety of OUR youngsters.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Compare how many are related to moderately-sized canopies and how many are related to the hot rods?



and how many of those are flown by 50-jump-wonders?
Way too many.

Quote

and how many with guys with thousands of jumps!?


I dunno. It would be a good research project for you.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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But to reply to your overstatements:

"Someday I would like to meet this HP parachute manufacturing money tycoon you old guys are so convinced exists. I want to have a conversation with the evil distributors who push small parachutes on students like a heroin dealer giving a free sample to teenagers to get them hooked. "

Read the ads. Compare how many are related to moderately-sized canopies and how many are related to the hot rods?



I just flicked through the last copy of Parachutist looking at the ads and PDs shows their whole range and Aerodyne's is focused on their Pilot.

Other than that there is one for the Firebolt328 and that's about it for canopy specific ads so I don't think it's fair to blame the manufacturers or the dealers.

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>You say that like those who pushed the limits did it UNsafely and safely swooping
>canopies only came about after the fact.

Those pioneers did it both safely and unsafely. The first person to do a front riser 720 was trying something new, and was taking risks that no one else had ever taken. We learned about how to swoop both by people who did it right - and by people who did it wrong. We learned not to toggle hook mainly because so many people got hurt doing it, not because John LeBlanc proved mathematically that it was a bad idea.

>"Somewhat" because there were, and are, many who indeed do it without a lot of
>thought about safety.

Agreed. And there are those who did it as safely as they could. Both those groups got us to where we are today.

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I just flicked through the last copy of Parachutist looking at the ads and PDs shows their whole range and Aerodyne's is focused on their Pilot.
.



I just looked through Cosmo and didn't see ANY ads. Therefore, skydiving doesn't exist at all.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Agreed. And there are those who did it as safely as they could. Both those groups got us to where we are today.



And with all the people plowing themselves in, swooping or not, skilled or not, I'd say where we are today is not really where we want to be.

The thread is about, if I'm not mistaken, about the tools of the trade, how we are using them and how certain entities are glorifying the "faster is better" mindset.

We all have been aware of the speed-related injuries for quite some time....years. Some are saying,
-high-speed tools are the culprit
-flying high-speed tools without proper skills is the culprit
-"faster is better" mindset entices people to exceed their limits

...and then there are those trying to justify away the reality of all those issues.

Keep doing the same things, you'll be getting the same results. Pretty simple concept.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Compare how many are related to moderately-sized canopies and how many are related to the hot rods?



and how many of those are flown by 50-jump-wonders?
Way too many.

Quote

and how many with guys with thousands of jumps!?


I dunno. It would be a good research project for you.



well, i did some research on the list on here. and surprisingly, you're either killing yourself as a student, or as a veteran with 1000+ jumps. not many inbetween.
“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

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I just flicked through the last copy of Parachutist looking at the ads and PDs shows their whole range and Aerodyne's is focused on their Pilot.
.



I just looked through Cosmo and didn't see ANY ads. Therefore, skydiving doesn't exist at all.



That's not a fair or reasonable response. My post was in answer to your instruction:

"Read the ads. Compare how many are related to moderately-sized canopies and how many are related to the hot rods?"

Well, I read the ads in the most recent issue of the national magazine of our sport, and provided the results.

Now you make a flippant remark? Should we assume then, that your initial "instruction" was flippant, too, and was intended to be ignored?

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I just looked through Cosmo and didn't see ANY ads. Therefore, skydiving doesn't exist at all.




Now you make a flippant remark? Should we assume then, that your initial "instruction" was flippant, too, and was intended to be ignored?



Give him a break - he may have missed the canopy ads since he was looking for some panties.
All his others are in a wad. ;)
Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal

Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess

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>I'd say where we are today is not really where we want to be.

It's definitely not ideal - but we're a lot further ahead (in terms of canopy skills overall) than we were 20 years ago. Technology has advanced even faster, which is why we are seeing all these canopy deaths.

But still a conservative canopy pilot is a lot better off than he was 20 years ago. 20 years ago that guy would have been jumping a Cruislite and dealing with cruddy flares and poor get-back-abilility. Today he'd be jumping a Pilot 188 and getting better glide ratios, softer openings, better flares, and a more reliable and longer lasting canopy. Overall he'd be better off even with that faster canopy.

At the same time a foolish pilot has been given more tools to hurt himself, which happens all too frequently. And even though we can nowadays identify the people who are foolish, most are immune to being told that. (Witness the comments in this very thread.)

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Technology has advanced even faster, which is why we are seeing all these canopy deaths.


Important point, yes

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But still a conservative canopy pilot is a lot better off than he was 20 years ago.


Absolutely! But, we're not talking about conservative ones here.


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At the same time a foolish pilot has been given more tools to hurt himself, which happens all too frequently.


The point of the OPs post, yes.


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And even though we can nowadays identify the people who are foolish, most are immune to being told that. (Witness the comments in this very thread.)


Yes, it's disturbing...in a negative way.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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