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Marisan

HP From an Old Fart

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So, are you refusing to argue with myopic people or are you refusing to admit this could be the reality in which case you/us need to slow down and reconsider safety? I guess my point is, are we looking at the big picture?

:)



Seeing as how I am moving away from sub 100 sq ft cross-braced canopies for a variety of reasons, most of them involving safety of me and others (I do other things and am not at the drop zone as much anymore), I would say that I am in actuality just refusing to argue with myopic people who reminds me of the Badger in the movie The Gods Must Be Crazy.
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

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What:
How:
When:
Where:
Who:

The eternal questions.
We know WHAT is going to happen. Someone is going to die!

We know HOW. Someone screwed up under a perfectly open canopy!

We know WHEN. Sometime in the next month (Two months if we are lucky) someone WILL die under a fully functioning canopy!

We don't know WHERE. Could be any DZ on the planet. No where is safe!

We don't know WHO. Could it be YOU? Could it be your SIGNIFICANT OTHER? Could it be a FIRST JUMP STUDENT?

Could it be a 100 JUMP WONDER who doesn't know what he doesn't know?

Could it be a 1000 JUMP WONDER who thinks he knows what he doesn't know?

Could it be a TEN THOUSAND JUMP SKYGOD that just stuffed it up a little bit on the wrong day?

The truth is that we don't know who it will be!

We just know that someone, who is walking around today will probably be dead by the end of April (Certainly by the end of May) under a canopy that is doing exactly what it was designed to do.

Will it be YOU?

Bon Chance Mes Ami's

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We don't know WHO. Could it be YOU? Could it be your SIGNIFICANT OTHER? Could it be a FIRST JUMP STUDENT?

Could it be a 100 JUMP WONDER who doesn't know what he doesn't know?

Could it be a 1000 JUMP WONDER who thinks he knows what he doesn't know?

Could it be a TEN THOUSAND JUMP SKYGOD that just stuffed it up a little bit on the wrong day?



It can't be you. You obviously have it all figured out.

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We don't know WHO. Could it be YOU? Could it be your SIGNIFICANT OTHER? Could it be a FIRST JUMP STUDENT?

Could it be a 100 JUMP WONDER who doesn't know what he doesn't know?

Could it be a 1000 JUMP WONDER who thinks he knows what he doesn't know?

Could it be a TEN THOUSAND JUMP SKYGOD that just stuffed it up a little bit on the wrong day?



It can't be you. You obviously have it all figured out.



Tssk Tssk Calvin.
Play the Ball, not the Man!

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We don't know WHO. Could it be YOU? Could it be your SIGNIFICANT OTHER? Could it be a FIRST JUMP STUDENT?

Could it be a 100 JUMP WONDER who doesn't know what he doesn't know?

Could it be a 1000 JUMP WONDER who thinks he knows what he doesn't know?

Could it be a TEN THOUSAND JUMP SKYGOD that just stuffed it up a little bit on the wrong day?



It can't be you. You obviously have it all figured out.



Tssk Tssk Calvin.
Play the Ball, not the Man!



...Said the guy who doesn't play ball.

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We don't know WHO. Could it be YOU? Could it be your SIGNIFICANT OTHER? Could it be a FIRST JUMP STUDENT?

Could it be a 100 JUMP WONDER who doesn't know what he doesn't know?

Could it be a 1000 JUMP WONDER who thinks he knows what he doesn't know?

Could it be a TEN THOUSAND JUMP SKYGOD that just stuffed it up a little bit on the wrong day?



It can't be you. You obviously have it all figured out.



Tssk Tssk Calvin.
Play the Ball, not the Man!



...Said the guy who doesn't play ball.



Ahh Calvin, but I did play the ball.
I'm just lucky that, when I walked to the Aeroplane for my last jump, I knew it.

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We don't know WHO. Could it be YOU? Could it be your SIGNIFICANT OTHER? Could it be a FIRST JUMP STUDENT?

Could it be a 100 JUMP WONDER who doesn't know what he doesn't know?

Could it be a 1000 JUMP WONDER who thinks he knows what he doesn't know?

Could it be a TEN THOUSAND JUMP SKYGOD that just stuffed it up a little bit on the wrong day?



It can't be you. You obviously have it all figured out.



Tssk Tssk Calvin.
Play the Ball, not the Man!



...Said the guy who doesn't play ball.



Ahh Calvin, but I did play the ball.
I'm just lucky that, when I walked to the Aeroplane for my last jump, I knew it.



too true. Like I said, you have it all figured out.
And i'm still waiting for the FAA to come in an confiscate my JVX.

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We don't know WHO. Could it be YOU? Could it be your SIGNIFICANT OTHER? Could it be a FIRST JUMP STUDENT?

Could it be a 100 JUMP WONDER who doesn't know what he doesn't know?

Could it be a 1000 JUMP WONDER who thinks he knows what he doesn't know?

Could it be a TEN THOUSAND JUMP SKYGOD that just stuffed it up a little bit on the wrong day?



It can't be you. You obviously have it all figured out.



Tssk Tssk Calvin.
Play the Ball, not the Man!



...Said the guy who doesn't play ball.



Ahh Calvin, but I did play the ball.
I'm just lucky that, when I walked to the Aeroplane for my last jump, I knew it.



too true. Like I said, you have it all figured out.
And i'm still waiting for the FAA to come in an confiscate my JVX.



Wait long enough Calvin and don't do anything. You may be surprised at what the FAA will do.

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It can't be you. You obviously have it all figured out.



Well he's figured it out enough to see the reality of whats happening. Have you?.

Some people are still blind to that reality.

Marisan has done his time in skydiving, and done things you never will. And he still cares enough to raise his voice, because it IS necessary, and others shut their mouths. Will you do that if you survive to retire satisfied?....

Things won't improve, till everyone makes survival their number 1 priority. Which is what it should be.

I guess, as in nature, the law of natural selection will eventually weed out those who don't realise that reality.

So I guess, in the long term the problem will eventually go away.

Job done!!.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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Things won't improve, till everyone makes survival their number 1 priority. Which is what it should be.



That's true, but to what end? Stop jumping all together?

I've managed to survive jumping small canopies and swooping. There are jumpers who have done the same for longer and through more jumps than I have. The point is that it's possible.

Why does anyone fly a plane more complicated than a trainer? They're light, forgiving, easy to handle, and can land almost anywhere. Picutre it, you have an engine out in a Cessna 150, and you land it safely in a baseball filed. Same scenario in a Caravan, which needs a lot more space to land, and will do so at a much higher speed with a more kinetic energy. You would haul right across the baseball field, and into the (and through) the school building next to it. So again I ask, why fly anything more than a 150?

It's the same reason I want to fly a faster canopy and do more than a straight in approach. With proper training and experience it can be done safely. People have limitations, and sometimes finding them is a rough road to follow. The fact that swooping and small canopies is risky business is widely known in the world of skydiving, so people know what they're getting into. If they want to be so foolish with their lives that they ignore that, and don't seek out training and build experience before building speed, I don't think there's anything we can do about that.

All of the anti-swooping or anti-small canopy arguments are about as hypocritcal as could be. Each one of you jumps out of a plane on a regualr basis (or used to) even though you knew people died doing the very same thing, including people who did everything right and still met their fate wearing a rig. None of you quit jumping on that basis, so to point at the swoopers and cry out that they're taking too many risks isn't going to 'fly'.

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All of the anti-swooping or anti-small canopy arguments are about as hypocritical as could be. Each one of you jumps out of a plane on a regular basis (or used to) even though you knew people died doing the very same thing, including people who did everything right and still met their fate wearing a rig. None of you quit jumping on that basis, so to point at the swoopers and cry out that they're taking too many risks isn't going to 'fly'.

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Well stated and logical...and far be for ME to shun those wishing to participate.

It's about risk assessment & management.

I sincerely doubt swooping will ever 'go-away', nor should it if the numbers of people wishing to participating remain steady.

However logic also dictates that the status quo cannot continue.

I think we as a group are undeniably missing something in the mix here...I don't swoop and I don't know the answer but something needs to change in the way & manner we're going about all this. Better, more structured training along with a raised consciousness of risk & safety are a good start.

The numbers speak for themselves, and lest we forget we don't map the serious life changing injuries...if we had those figures to add in, I believe some jaws would drop.

I've seen a lot of trends and changes in this sport during the time I've been a participant, I've seen the 'industry' address & work to correct situations that were much less significant than this...why are we dragging feet fixing this to the best possible satisfaction of ALL?











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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I've seen the 'industry' address & work to correct situations that were much less significant than this...why are we dragging feet fixing this to the best possible satisfaction of ALL?



That's a question that can only be answered by the USPA.

It's no secret why people want to swoop and fly small canopies, it's because it's fun and it's a thrill. Show me the skydiver who doesn't like fun and thrills.

The problem is that you're not going to get people, the type of people who like to jump out of planes for fun, to give up fun and thrills on their own. Jumpers are resistant to the ideas of regulation and control because none of them want to lose their 'freedom'.

What all this means is that you can't count on the population to police itself in these matters. It's going to take enacting rules and regualtions that people are forced to follow in order to make it stick, and in this country that's the job of the USPA. Ask them.

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I think part of the problem here is the reluctance of more experienced jumpers to help new jumpers to start on the pathway to CP.

"You're not ready for this, come back when you have xxx jumps" is part of the problem. It forces these younger jumpers to go out and try to figure things out by themselves.

Bill Von's checklist is a better approach, I think. Rather than telling someone "You can't do this", it is better to say "OK - step one to swooping is flying a good pattern. Go and show me that you can land in the peas 5 times in a row", then maybe you move up to learning stalls and then to performance enveloping up high then straight in downwinders etc etc so that the young guy has something positive to work on. And it doesn't always have to be "find a canopy course"

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What all this means is that you can't count on the population to police itself in these matters. It's going to take enacting rules and regulations that people are forced to follow in order to make it stick, and in this country that's the job of the USPA. Ask them.

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I understand what you're saying, but in the broad sense aren't WE the USPA?

In many ways all the governing organization does is address what it perceives the needs of the membership to be ~ within the realm of their 'power' and influence.

The way I see it, either they feel powerless to proceed in a way that significantly impacts the problem...or they're inexplicably failing to give this is situation the critical attention it cries out for.

...either way, we the membership do have some say in the resolution if we were to 'demand' progress in rectifying this.

Editorials and recommendations are not having the desired effect.

I hate to put it this way but it's getting to the point that if 'we' want the USPA to take a big bite out it, we 'have' to somehow give them the teeth to do it.


Maybe we're reaching the point where we don't 'ask' them, but instead TELL them. We unify, and agree to assist & uphold the measures implemented.


Again, I'm not hand wringing and calling for a halt to what is obviously a part of the sport in general, that many of 'us' wish to be involved with.

However ~

~We certainly can not continue to stack bodies up like this and pretend it isn't happening...eventually someone with the power to make changes without 'our' input will step in & do so.

Do 'we' want to write the rules on this, or let 'them do it for us?











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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That's true, but to what end? Stop jumping all together?



Not at all. People can skydive and swoop their tits off. And thats fine. As long as self preservation and survival while participating is at the top of their priority list.

Doing it safely is possible, as you've stated. Not everyone IS doing it safely, though, and thats the point. As Twardo states, the stack of dead and maimed is getting too big.

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All of the anti-swooping or anti-small canopy arguments are about as hypocritcal as could be. Each one of you jumps out of a plane on a regualr basis (or used to) even though you knew people died doing the very same thing, including people who did everything right and still met their fate wearing a rig. None of you quit jumping on that basis, so to point at the swoopers and cry out that they're taking too many risks isn't going to 'fly'.



I think the concern comes mainly from the utter senselessness of dying under a perfectly good canopy. It so happens that hookers and swoopers are featuring prominently in the statistics.

Would it be better if we just shut up and went away??.

Fatals in the good ol days rarely involved a perfectly functioning main canopy, but if it had, I'm sure the reaction would have been the same, and something would have been done about it quick smart.

HP maiming and death has been going on for nigh on 20 years, a concerted effort to reduce it is long overdue....

It doesn't have to be difficult....
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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HP maiming and death has been going on for nigh on 20 years, a concerted effort to reduce it is long overdue....

It doesn't have to be difficult....



It can be very easy, but people will have to grow up and start acting like adults. Too bad that's not going to happen with the younger generation that has polluted our sport with their sense of entitlement and lack of care for others or the sport of skydiving.
>:(

There are people dying under canopies they have no business flying. Why do we continue to allow these deaths to ruin our sport?

When will it end?
:(:S

We know how it ends for some people. Death or serious injury. And the common denominator is 'high performance canopies'.

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I think the concern comes mainly from the utter senselessness of dying under a perfectly good canopy



So it makes perfect sense when a jumper is killed jumping out of a perfectly good airplane? Does it make sense when a jumper goes in with nothing out?

The fact is that a skydive is not over once you have an open parachute. All you get with an open parachute is a temporary relief from the prospect of a high speed impact with the ground. The horror of going in clean is on hold for the time being, but the fact is that you are still a considerable distance from the ground, and nowhere near 'safe' in any respect. There are ten ways to misuse a canopy of any size that will take that suspension of risk, and throw it right out the window.

It's up to every jumper, on every jump, to maintain the safety of the open canopy they have, all the way to the ground, to include a landing flare and safe touchdown. We're not jumping rounds, and we're not pallets of robust cargo that can land anywhere. It's the jumpers job to fly the canopy, and just because one incident involves a deployment, and the other does not, doesn't make the first incident any more senseless than the latter.

I'm not suggesting that status quo is acceptable, because it is not. Work is needed in the area of canopy education and regulation so we can produce smarter, more well developed canopy pilots who are better equipped to deal with the higher speeds and more percise decision making required of HP canopies. What I'm suggesting is that demonizing HP canopies is not the answer.

The simple fact is, the overwhelming majority of swoopers and HP canopy pliots manage to jump and land their canopies without incident. It proves that the equipment and techniques for using it are sound. In this case, don't hate the game, hate the player. It's the jumpers that come up short, the canopies can only do what they tell them to.

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So it makes perfect sense when a jumper is killed jumping out of a perfectly good airplane? Does it make sense when a jumper goes in with nothing out?



Death, while skydiving, whichever poison you choose, make no sense, even if it is always on the cards. This poison is particularly unacceptable though, because an antidote is not difficult to find, but has been way too slow in coming.

I see this "comparison" as a part of the problem, in that it seems to legitimise in the minds of some that open canopy deaths are somehow acceptable because people die in other ways. To be frank, it is crap.

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What I'm suggesting is that demonizing HP canopies is not the answer.



They seem to be THE obvious common factor in the carnage though. We would be negligent to ignore that fact in the search for a solution.

If demonising them causes someone to stop and think a little, then surely thats better than ignoring the problem. The squeals of outrage from the "we have the right to our fun" brigade shows that we are hitting a nerve. Thats gotta be good.

I'm sure there is a lot more thought today about the problem than there has been in the past. Which is a good thing, But effective strategies need to be fast tracked.

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The simple fact is, the overwhelming majority of swoopers and HP canopy pliots manage to jump and land their canopies without incident. It proves that the equipment and techniques for using it are sound. In this case, don't hate the game, hate the player. It's the jumpers that come up short, the canopies can only do what they tell them to.



So much hot air, albeit true, and has been repeated ad nauseum with little apparent effect. It doesn't validate anything if the status quo remains.

How about if all the safe canopy pilots out there make it their personal mission to do something postive about the problem, by aggressively policing the turkeys, in terms of proferring advice, warnings, criticism and condemnation if necessary, to those in over their heads. Those individuals are not that hard to spot.

The message needs to be hammered home relentlessly, on a long term basis, to everyone, gunnywhip and turkey alike..

You said in another post that USPA has to get involved, but IF they ever do (which I doubt), the horse has already long bolted. They need to move their arses now.

Mindsets have to change, and that has to start from individuals. No amount of regulation or legislation is going to change anything, unless of course, it comes from an external agency.

The problem needs to be attacked on multiple fronts, and there is a lot that can be done. Until there is a willingness and desire to fix things, however, the casualty list is going to grow.

It could start with a brains trust sitting down and really thrashing out the problem and coming up with some effective and universal policies.

Attacking the messengers solves nothing.
My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

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If demonising them causes someone to stop and think a little, then surely thats better than ignoring the problem. The squeals of outrage from the "we have the right to our fun" brigade shows that we are hitting a nerve. Thats gotta be good.



In my experience, demonizing a group rarely has the result of them listening to you.

No different than walking up to someone and yelling at them on the dz, even if you're right. More often than not you cause them to be defensive, and immediately shut down any chance of a civil conversation at that time.

Ian
Performance Designs Factory Team

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