Can't keep stable in freefall

[kram88 0]

Hey guys, I just did my AFF Lvl 1. I failed the first time and did it again that day and passed the 2nd. But looking back on the video my arching is very sloppy. If you will call it arching. My first jump I had my hands below my chest like I was fighting the wind, my legs were also very spread out. I can arch fine on the ground but when it comes to the jump it looks like shit and if it wasn't for the instructors holding on to me I would be all over the place.. I think part of it is because I cant relax and am very tense. Still quite a bit of anxiety. If you guys have any suggestions on how to remain arched in free fall or how to improve my stability please let me know. Thanks!

[NWFlyer 2]

How can you solve the problem? Skydive some more.

You have two minutes of solo freefall under your belt now. How many things have you tried where you've been really good (or even sorta good) after two minutes? Skydiving is not easy, and it's definitely not natural, and it takes time to get it.

Your instructors were happy enough with your performance to let you move onto the next level. So you improved.

Keep doing it, keep improving, at whatever pace is your pace.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[Tink1717 2]

Tunnel time. It will fix what ails you and then some. Do what ever you have to do to get it. A thirty minute block in the tunnel and you'll breeze through the rest of your AFF. I did my thesis on the tunnel and it's simply the best training tool out there.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[kram88 0]

Yeah I was either going to check out the tunnel or try my AFF lvl 2 next week and see if anything resolves from there. I guess I just want to fix this quick as to being stable is a pretty important factor in your skydive..

[JohnMitchell 14]

What the other two said, plus. . .

Relax, breathe, practice on the ground and visualize. You're trying too hard with your hands so low.

Also, you say your arch sucks. Remember that when you spread your legs too far apart, it locks your thighs forward in the pelvis and you literally can't arch properly. Get your feet together a little more and push those hips down.

Smile, breathe, relax, repeat. The joy will find you soon.

[Bertt 0]

you're in San Marcos; iFly Austin is just up the road; problem solved.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[kram88 0]

I heard that you can learn bad technique at the tunnels though? So I was skeptical about going unless I absolutely have to.. What do yall think?

[mattjw916 2]

Quote

I heard that you can learn bad technique at the tunnels though

rubbish... go book some time

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[kram88 0]

Okay. I'll post the videos to my 2 AFF lvl 1 jumps later so you guys can critique them as well, still waiting for them to be sent over. Thanks for all the help!

[AndyBoyd 0]

Arch!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEE2NFPDezM

[ChuckMartin 0]

kram88

I heard that you can learn bad technique at the tunnels though? So I was skeptical about going unless I absolutely have to.. What do yall think?

Talk to Vic or the girls at manifest. We have a deal worked out with Ifly for our students. Its 15 minutes for like $180 ($180 is what? The cost of one redo?) that is a pretty good deal. A lot of the guys that work there jump at San Marcos. Waz even works at both places. When you go just let them know you'er a skydiver and not just a random person off the street. When I was doing my AFF I kept having to redo jumps because I could not stop turning left, went to the tunnel and it fixed everything. It will help a lot.

See you when you get to coach jumps. ;)

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

kram88

I heard that you can learn bad technique at the tunnels though? So I was skeptical about going unless I absolutely have to.. What do yall think?

What?! Who said that?

I've got about 3 hours in the tunnel now. I'm pretty sure it's the reason I'm as comfortable as I am in the air with just 200 jumps. There are things you can't learn in the tunnel -- tracking and altitude awareness being a couple of the big ones. But you can learn to fly your body like nobody's business. You can learn to stay in one place pretty well too, because the tunnel is a harsh and unforgiving environment if you like to slide all over the sky.

I did a few minutes between AFFs 2 and 3 and it made a big difference. I think I did 15-20 minutes before I got out of AFF. And I kept going back. They've raised their prices a couple of times since then, and I'm less inclined to go now, but with winter coming on I'll be spending more time in the tunnel and less time in the air.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[GAjumper84 0]

Not much experience here, but the best advice I could give is just relax. The opposing wind will almost push you in the correct position if you just put your arms and legs in the correct place. If you try to fight it or become stiff it makes it a lot harder than it needs to be. I found that out the hard way. Anyway, from one newbie to another good luck on the next jump!

[mjosparky 3]

Like John said, smile and wiggle your toes in your shoes. It will tell you where your feet are.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[yarpos 4]

You can keep stable in freefall actually. Look around at people on the dropzone.....anyone got feathers, secret extendable appendages??? Look a lot like you dont they? its only in your head and you need to do lots of what John Mitchell said above.

regards, Steve
the older I get...the better I was

[JohnMitchell 14]

kram88

I heard that you can learn bad technique at the tunnels though? So I was skeptical about going unless I absolutely have to.. What do yall think?

They have slightly different hand positions than we typically use. Plus they have you fly with a lot more "legs out" at first because they want you to fly at lower speeds for safety. Once you show more control they can dial the wind speed up and flying becomes even more natural.

There is almost 100% transference of skills from the tunnel to the sky. I wish all of my AFF students could start with 10 minutes or more in the tunnel.

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

I have secret extra appendages

Yeah you'll get there. Everyone gets all discouraged when they're not immediately a natural at this, but no one's an immediate natural at this. I was going back and looking at some of my old tunnel footage and it's really not until about half an hour in that I'm starting to get reasonably stable. And even then I'm having some trouble with a slight turn that's due to my leg position.

Here's my first one, between AFF 2 and 3.

Here's a more recent one where I decided to go do a session with no objectives other than to have fun. My friend Livy was the other guy and had just recently got his A license at that point if I recall correctly. This was almost a year after I started skydiving. The funny thing is, this day I hit the wind and just completely relaxed immediately. You can see it in my flying. The next couple of times I go down there I'm listening to an instructor again, which made me tense up a bit more. And you can see in my flying that I'm a bit more unstable because of it.

So everyone's always giving you advice to relax. And at this point it's perfectly legitimate to say "I am just about to jump out of an airplane and I AM NOT GOING TO RELAX!" but if you just take a deep breath and let go of as much of that tension as you can, your flying will be better. When you're all rigid and stiff like a bread stick, you're going to fly like a bread stick.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[DrDom 0]

I was born with feathers so it all comes natural for me
almost go that out with a straight face.

OK, I'm only an AFF student but can tell you a few things I've learned. First... I have a good arch. No confidence, a lot of fear, but a good arch. I spent an hour in the tunnel before AFF (mostly because I signed up for AFF and there was a big lag time). Out the door I cant arch, I tense up still even after 6 jumps. But once out there it smooths out and I get stable.

After level 4 my instructor was filling out the form and said "Either You've jumped before or you spent a lot of time in the tunnel". He said he could tell by the arch, heading control, and turns. Smooth, obviously done before.

So, my uninformed advice as a student to student: Tunnel time helped me, it may help you. Freefall for 1-2 minutes total you just can not beat yourself up for not mastering yet. But if you want to improve your curve (pun intended) then go ahead and book 15 minutes of tunnel time. Thats like 5-10 skydives worth of arch. PLus, the nice thing about the tunnel (again, only my student experience) is that you do not need to think much about the whole process of the jump flow... just work on your arch and build some muscle memory

Nothing about skydiving is really intuitive, and the information I give is free; you get what you pay for. So ask your instructors for help if you're not sure where to go. ALWAYS defer first to your instructors. If you do not trust them enough to believe them, get new instructors ;)

You are not the contents of your wallet.

[yoink 321]

kram88

I heard that you can learn bad technique at the tunnels though? So I was skeptical about going unless I absolutely have to.. What do yall think?

Your instructors passed you.

You don't need tunnel time... It can help as a training tool, but it's far from a necessity. Save your money for jumps.
Relax, listen to your instructors and smile.


You don't need to be excellent at it immediately. Chill.

[yoink 321]

JohnMitchell

I wish all of my AFF students could start with 10 minutes or more in the tunnel.

The biggest problem I have with AFF is that it hurries people though the introduction to skydiving. Simply making the series of AFF jumps does not a skydiver make, in my book.
Some things you ONLY get from time spent in a plane, or on a dropzone. Awareness in those areas is part of being a 'skydiver'. The technical in air skills are only a bit of it.

With the introduction of tunnel time into a training programme, I can't help thinking that we're speeding the process up even more. Soon it won't be acceptable to 'fail' a level, even though those can be seriously good learning experiences.

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

yoink

*** I wish all of my AFF students could start with 10 minutes or more in the tunnel.

The biggest problem I have with AFF is that it hurries people though the introduction to skydiving. Simply making the series of AFF jumps does not a skydiver make, in my book.
Some things you ONLY get from time spent in a plane, or on a dropzone. Awareness in those areas is part of being a 'skydiver'. The technical in air skills are only a bit of it.

With the introduction of tunnel time into a training programme, I can't help thinking that we're speeding the process up even more. Soon it won't be acceptable to 'fail' a level, even though those can be seriously good learning experiences.

AFF instructors won't pass students just to pass them. That would be doing a disservice to everyone. Altitude awareness is still the most important thing on those jumps, and you're still going to fail them if you don't have that. Some people will sail through AFF in 7 jump, some will have to repeat some levels until they get it.

I don't feel like I'm any worse of a skydiver for the tunnel time I spent during AFF or later, and I don't think it was harmful to my last couple hundred jumps. If anything I feel like I'm far more comfortable in the air than I should be at this stage.

I have a hypothesis that tunnel time will probably reduce the sensory overload on an AFF 1 jump. It'd be interesting to do a study, but I doubt anyone would be willing to pay for it. Maybe a tunnel would be interested enough in the possible results to do so. I'm thinking get a control group that goes through AFF with no tunnel time, one that goes through with 10 minutes and one that goes through with half an hour and see how well each group does with AFF, and how many go on to get their A licenses. Even if a tunnel was contributing the tunnel time, I'm not sure it'd be easy to put your hands on 30-60 volunteers who are looking to start skydiving. I'm not sure you could learn anything useful with just 10 people in each group.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

[frogerina 0]

FlyingRhenquest

I have a hypothesis that tunnel time will probably reduce the sensory overload on an AFF 1 jump.

I'm a small sample (i.e. I'm one person ) but I did an AFF 1 jump and was so overwhelmed. I did remain altitude aware and pulled at the proper time, but it kind of spooked me. Went and did an hour of tunnel (knowing that I am a slow learner of things physical), and my AFF Cat B jump was a thing of beauty. I think the tunnel definitely helped with a lot of "where is my body" awareness and learning control, which allowed me to concentrate on other aspects of the skydives.

[yoink 321]

FlyingRhenquest

AFF instructors won't pass students just to pass them. That would be doing a disservice to everyone. Altitude awareness is still the most important thing on those jumps, and you're still going to fail them if you don't have that. Some people will sail through AFF in 7 jump, some will have to repeat some levels until they get it.

I don't mean that Instructors will unnecessarily pass students, but AFF seems to have become about time for the students.

They're the ones asking 'How FAST can I get my A-license?' - and since the A is predicated mostly on in-air skills, then answer is 'pretty damn fast'. The pressure they put on themselves to complete it in the fastest time possible is only increased by the idea that tunnel time aids this - 'well, if it means I can do it faster, why wouldn't I?'

and it does... I'm not denying that. It makes them better in the air, sooner.

I'm just not convinced that 'sooner' or 'faster' makes them a better, safer or more rounded skydiver though. They simply haven't had TIME to watch lots of other people landing and see the mistakes that others make. They don't have TIME to ask questions about people they see door jamming, or how manifesting and load organizing works... they don't need to know stuff like this for an A license, but its good information to have when they get off student status, because then they're on their own.

Don't get me wrong. I think that tunnel time is great. I think after completing the AFF qualification jumps is the PERFECT time for a little and will really help ongoing progression.

I just think eventually there has to be a limit of how much progressing 'faster' can help a student.

[yoink 321]

frogerina

*** I have a hypothesis that tunnel time will probably reduce the sensory overload on an AFF 1 jump.

I'm a small sample (i.e. I'm one person ) but I did an AFF 1 jump and was so overwhelmed. I did remain altitude aware and pulled at the proper time, but it kind of spooked me. Went and did an hour of tunnel (knowing that I am a slow learner of things physical), and my AFF Cat B jump was a thing of beauty. I think the tunnel definitely helped with a lot of "where is my body" awareness and learning control, which allowed me to concentrate on other aspects of the skydives.

I'm glad it helped, and if you know you're a slow learner, maybe in your case it was necessary. However, an hour of tunnel time is a LOT. It's the equivalent of 50 to 60 jumps in air-time.
Personally, I think you might have gotten more out of your progression by saving a large portion of that tunnel time until a little later - when you're ready to start working on your solos or FS skills, for example.

That said - if it worked for you, I'm happy.

I'm definitely not saying 'DON'T DO TUNNEL TIME'. In a large part I'm playing devils advocate for those thinking about how we can best train students in the future and trying to provide a foil to start that discussion.

Does the tunnel have a place in training? Almost certainly... I'm just interested in where that is in the progression to best help the student. If they're having specific problems to target and overcome, that's one thing - it's something else entirely to say that it would be good for all students to have tunnel time as part of their training.

[FlyingRhenquest 1]

yoink

Does the tunnel have a place in training? Almost certainly... I'm just interested in where that is in the progression to best help the student. If they're having specific problems to target and overcome, that's one thing - it's something else entirely to say that it would be good for all students to have tunnel time as part of their training.

Yep! And that's why we have... SCIENCE! Muahahahaha! Sadly I don't know of anyone with big pockets who'd be likely to want to fund the study I suggest. Perhaps I should run it past the Mythbusters or something.

Isn't always about "how can I get this the fastest" with young people? It's because they're young. I'm not sure that for most people the process really needs to be slowed down. If my experience is any example, most of the people who start AFF never finish it, much less get their A license. There were 12 people in my AFF ground school. I only ever saw a couple of them again after that. After a month I never saw any of 'em again. One guy did get in touch with me about a year later that he was starting up again, but I haven't heard from him again since then either.

I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?