EVs, Aspirations vs Reality

[billvon 2,400]

1 minute ago, kallend said:

Cook County building codes. . . . . 

Replace panel with 200A panel, main breaker rated to protect grid connection.
Add solar plus hybrid inverter with small ($700) battery.
Set hybrid inverter max input to whatever the max power available from the grid is (50A say.)
Drive everything including the EV charger off the output of the hybrid inverter.

Nothing in that list should be contrary to NFPA or NEC codes - and pretty much all local building codes are based off those.

[gowlerk 1,913]

21 minutes ago, billvon said:

Replace panel with 200A panel, main breaker rated to protect grid connection.
Add solar plus hybrid inverter with small ($700) battery.
Set hybrid inverter max input to whatever the max power available from the grid is (50A say.)
Drive everything including the EV charger off the output of the hybrid inverter.

Nothing in that list should be contrary to NFPA or NEC codes - and pretty much all local building codes are based off those.

The perfesser and his wife the doc can probably just pay an electrician at the union rate to pull a permit and do the upgrade. Not everyone wants to be an annoying DIYer.

[SkyDekker 1,123]

58 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

With a level 2 charger that goes from two to 12++ hours assuming there is no line.

Yes and with a bicycle it takes even longer...

[gowlerk 1,913]

2 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

1400 miles. Most people in ICE cars spend at least that amount of time stretching legs, eating etc on a 1,400 mile road trip.

With 300 mile range that would be 4 or 5 stops for charging. If they took 2 hours each that would pretty much add a full day to the trip. And for most people an extra night in a hotel. Most likely if I owned an EV and I had to do such a trip I would rent and ICE to do it in. It is what it is, there are disadvantages to go along the good things.

[SethInMI 145]

43 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

With 300 mile range that would be 4 or 5 stops for charging. If they took 2 hours each that would pretty much add a full day to the trip. And for most people an extra night in a hotel. Most likely if I owned an EV and I had to do such a trip I would rent and ICE to do it in. It is what it is, there are disadvantages to go along the good things.

I think the 1400 came from me posting that last week I did a 1400 mile round trip in my Tesla.  700 miles each way, ~1.5 hrs charging spread out over 13.5 hrs of travel.  Brent acts like this is the end-of-the-world but really it isn't.

edit: even though my wife was annoyed at all the charging we had to do on our trip "we have to stop AGAIN?" she was not pushing us to drive the gas car, and actually has decided to get rid of it and make her next car electric.

Edited January 2 by SethInMI
personal anecdote #2

[SethInMI 145]

My 0.02 on the depreciation question:

This stung me as my car has dropped in value a lot since I bought it 2.5 years ago, but I still view this as a good thing. Tesla was making enormous profits off of the high demand for its cars, and since that demand has cooled it had to lower its prices a lot but is still profitable.  Couple that with the tax credit extensions / modifications and you can see where the enormous deprecation forces have come from. 

BUT this is temporary.  Once new e-car prices stop dropping depreciation will come into line with ICE cars (or will be better).  And dropping prices for new e-cars is good for everyone (except me of course).

Edited January 2 by SethInMI
grammar

[billvon 2,400]

55 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

With 300 mile range that would be 4 or 5 stops for charging. If they took 2 hours each that would pretty much add a full day to the trip.

Right.  And if they took 20 minutes each (more reasonable on the most popular EV) it would add about an hour compared to a gas car.

[gowlerk 1,913]

3 hours ago, billvon said:

Right.  And if they took 20 minutes each (more reasonable on the most popular EV) it would add about an hour compared to a gas car.

For an engineer your math seems to be a little on the optimistic side. Tesla claims 0.6 of an hour for a full charge on a 440v charger. Even if it was 20 minutes, 20 times 4 or 5 > 60. We all know that their claims are about as valid as ICE mileage claims. Then factor in that unless the charging stations are just the correct distance apart more stops will be needed. No one wants to risk an empty tank. Especially when running out likely means calling for a tilt deck truck to rescue you. We all live in the real world. Your boosterism risks catching up with BH's pessimism. We should all look at it a little more realistically and avoid hyperbole.

More research shows 27 minutes from 10 to 80% on the best DC fast charger. Are you going to stop at 80% if you are on a long trip? That would be best for the battery but it would lower your range. Who needs the headache and the drama of planning out such a trip. I like the ev idea and in my regular day to day life the range would be just fine. If I'm planning a trip to Eloy from Winnipeg in January? I'm taking an ICE vehicle for sure.

Edited January 2 by gowlerk

[SethInMI 145]

40 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Who needs the headache and the drama of planning out such a trip.

Telsa makes this very easy. The car will route you to chargers as needed and tell you when to stop charging and resume your trip.  Chargers are spaced out so that there are multiple options.  The range estimates that the car gives are quite accurate usually to within 1-2%, so I don't worry about getting to a charger with <10% battery left. 

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

If I'm planning a trip to Eloy from Winnipeg in January?

If you're planning a trip from Eloy to Winnipeg in January you don't need an ICE vehicle, you need therapy.

[gowlerk 1,913]

2 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

If you're planning a trip from Eloy to Winnipeg in January you don't need an ICE vehicle, you need therapy.

Unfortunately I come from a place where holidays can both start and end in January. And I dislike commercial air travel so I generally drive both ways. Eloy is therapy at times.

Edited January 3 by gowlerk

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 minute ago, gowlerk said:

Unfortunately I come from a place where holidays can both start and end in January. And I dislike commercial air travel so I generally drive both ways. Eloy is therapy at times.

Fortunately, free external migration between our countries is still on offer and, once you are here, it's not the puddle jumper jets that I had to take from Minneapolis to the Peg and back that are so dislikable. Set yourself free and come on down and warm up. 

[gowlerk 1,913]

Just now, JoeWeber said:

Fortunately, free external migration between our countries is still on offer and, once you are here, it's not the puddle jumper jets that I had to take from Minneapolis to the Peg and back that are so dislikable. Set yourself free and come on down and warm up. 

Westjet flies direct YWG to PHX in the winter. 737s

[ryoder 1,384]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

More research shows 27 minutes from 10 to 80% on the best DC fast charger. Are you going to stop at 80% if you are on a long trip? That would be best for the battery but it would lower your range. Who needs the headache and the drama of planning out such a trip. I like the ev idea and in my regular day to day life the range would be just fine. If I'm planning a trip to Eloy from Winnipeg in January? I'm taking an ICE vehicle for sure.

According to Youtuber Jason Fenske (who owns a Tesla), a long road trip actually takes less charging time overall if you stop at 80%. The reason is that charging rate slows down above 80% to lessen stress on the battery. (His Youtube channel is "Engineering Explained").

[gowlerk 1,913]

3 minutes ago, ryoder said:

According to Youtuber Jason Fenske (who owns a Tesla), a long road trip actually takes less charging time overall if you stop at 80%. The reason is that charging rate slows down above 80% to lessen stress on the battery. (His Youtube channel is "Engineering Explained").

That could very well be and makes sense. However that also lowers the range which of course is always quoted on the basis of a full charge. Meaning shorter but more often stops.

[gowlerk 1,913]

More anecdotal research, (google search for ev road trip) finds many first hand accounts of people's experiences. They basically all say the same thing. It can be done but it requires careful planning and it is a trying experience. And unless it is just a top up the 20 minute charge is a fantasy. The reality is broken chargers and waiting your turn. People being people they will often take up the space for longer than needed while they shop or have a meal. Very convenient if you get there first but not so much for those waiting.   

[billvon 2,400]

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

For an engineer your math seems to be a little on the optimistic side. Tesla claims 0.6 of an hour for a full charge on a 440v charger. Even if it was 20 minutes, 20 times 4 or 5 > 60. We all know that their claims are about as valid as ICE mileage claims. Then factor in that unless the charging stations are just the correct distance apart more stops will be needed. No one wants to risk an empty tank. Especially when running out likely means calling for a tilt deck truck to rescue you. We all live in the real world. Your boosterism risks catching up with BH's pessimism. We should all look at it a little more realistically and avoid hyperbole.

More research shows 27 minutes from 10 to 80% on the best DC fast charger. Are you going to stop at 80% if you are on a long trip? That would be best for the battery but it would lower your range. Who needs the headache and the drama of planning out such a trip. I like the ev idea and in my regular day to day life the range would be just fine. If I'm planning a trip to Eloy from Winnipeg in January? I'm taking an ICE vehicle for sure.

Tesla average supercharger rates are 180 kilowatts.  That's because some are 70KW, a lot are 150, about a third are 250 and the next generation ones are 350 (being installed now.)  So for a 75 kilowatt-hour Model 3 LR, you can get 60 kilowatt hours worth of charge in 20 minutes.  (As someone else mentioned, charging to 80% makes the most sense.)  Since max range is 330 miles, that means you get 260 miles of range in that time.  That means you have to stop 5 times to charge during a 140 mile trip, for a total time of 100 minutes.  You arrive with about half charge.

In a gas car, average range is 400 miles.  So you're going to be stopping every 350 miles or so (4 times.)  Take 10 minutes for each gas-up, and the EV takes 70 minutes more than the gas car - about an hour.

Both scenarios assume perfect everything, of course.

 

 

[billvon 2,400]

34 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

And unless it is just a top up the 20 minute charge is a fantasy. The reality is broken chargers and waiting your turn. 

We've done it - 1600 mile trip with the kids.  Shortest charge time was about 15 minutes (stopping to pee and getting the kids to run around.)  Longest supercharge time was about 35 minutes (dinner at Panera.)  Longest charge time, period, was stopping at a hotel; plugged into the hotel's level 2 charger overnight.  The house we were staying at in Oregon had an outlet outside, so we slow charged the car there.  And since those chargers were at our destinations there was no extra time needed.  Parked, plugged in and went inside.

There were a few broken chargers, but we never had to wait for more than a few minutes.  Ironically the one time we had to wait a few minutes was at Harris Ranch where there are now 98 chargers.

Now, for sure there are places in North America where the chargers are not so numerous.  But with chargers in place, the drive takes about the same time as it would with a gas car.

[gowlerk 1,913]

8 minutes ago, billvon said:

Now, for sure there are places in North America where the chargers are not so numerous.  But with chargers in place, the drive takes about the same time as it would with a gas car.

Common sense would say no. Fill and bathroom break with gasoline is about 15 minutes. Range is usually higher and fuel is easily available. Maybe someday it will be closer, but it will never be equal. Relying on false promises is not the best way to promote EVs. They are weak on long trips and on heavy loads. They are great for running around town. There is still a long way to go to get rid of that smelly exhaust.

Edited January 3 by gowlerk

[brenthutch 383]

6 minutes ago, billvon said:

In a gas car, average range is 400 miles.  So you're going to be stopping every 350 miles or so (4 times.)  Take 10 minutes for each gas-up,

 

10 minutes to fill a tank? I call bullshit. Unless you add all of the time pulling off of the highway and getting back. Apples to apples EV charging is at least 10x more.

 

2 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Common sense would say no. Fill and bathroom break with gasoline is about 15 minutes. Range is usually higher and fuel is easily available. Maybe someday it will be closer, but it will never be equal. Relying on false promises is not the best way to promote EVs. They are weak on long trips and on heavy loads. They are great for running around town. There is still a long way to go to get rid of that smelly exhaust.

Thank you for that much needed reality check from someone who generally doesn’t agree me.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Westjet flies direct YWG to PHX in the winter. 737s

Delightful, one er, um, well, to another. And in an ancient plane, too.

[gowlerk 1,913]

1 minute ago, JoeWeber said:

Delightful, one er, um, well, to another. And in an ancient plane, too.

The other option is to drive to Grand forks ND and fly Allegiant to Mesa. I did that once. Maybe you can see why I prefer to just drive.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

1 minute ago, gowlerk said:

The other option is to drive to Grand forks ND and fly Allegiant to Mesa. I did that once. Maybe you can see why I prefer to just drive.

Of course just moving is always a thought. No offense, but I've flown to and from the Peg a number of times and spent lot's of day's there. For you it's home, to my eye it's more like a sentence from a judge.

[gowlerk 1,913]

17 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Of course just moving is always a thought. No offense, but I've flown to and from the Peg a number of times and spent lot's of day's there. For you it's home, to my eye it's more like a sentence from a judge.

Where did you grow up? I’ve always had a decent life here. Summers are great. In the winter I go trucking to get away for pay. I’m semi-retired and the driver shortage means I can work when I feel like it. I’m leaving for Cincinnati Thursday.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

2 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Where did you grow up? I’ve always had a decent life here. Summers are great. In the winter I go trucking to get away for pay. I’m semi-retired and the driver shortage means I can work when I feel like it. I’m leaving for Cincinnati Thursday.

Sounds awesome.