How do you talk to them?

[jerry81 10]

This is a hypothetical situation based on recent experience I had;

You have a very experienced jumper visiting at your dropzone (say, 10.000+ jumps) with less than desirable canopy flying habits. Disregard for landing pattern, low hook turns, landing wherever he wants. He probably has the skill to pull it off continuously, but the way he's pushing it sometimes makes the margin for error so small that even a slight change of uncontrollable factors would make him hurt not just himself but others, too.

Do you approach such a person and what do you say to them? If you have a lot less jumps, but still feel they're too dangerous? Or if you are the DZO or S&TA of the dropzone, considering that what you say may cause a person with a lot of influence to talk badly of your place?

I prefer to see really experienced people leading by example, but as I've seen, sometimes that's just too much to hope for...

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[marks 0]

you can get really really good at something if you do it over and over and over, even if it is "the wrong way".

[jerry81 10]

I realize that. My main concern is the part about pushing it so much that a slight bump in the air or a whuffo spectator trying to jump the wrong way would cause an accident...

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[popsjumper 2]

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...Or if you are the DZO or S&TA of the dropzone, considering that what you say may cause a person with a lot of influence to talk badly of your place?

Let's see now...."talk badly about my place" or "hurt not just himself but others, too."

Hmmmmm politics or safety...Hmmmmm

I hope there are no S&TAs out there that would pass that up and let it go. I already know there are DZOs that would and do.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[NWFlyer 2]

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Disregard for landing pattern, low hook turns, landing wherever he wants.

If it's at a DZ that has stated rules about that, talk to the DZO or S&TA and let them know of your concern.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[stratostar 5]

I hope there are no S&TAs out there that would pass that up and let it go. I already know there are DZOs that would and do.
(quote)

Shit I know and have known a number of them, who would look the other way," that's so & so and their hot shit big time joe cool" and they let stuff slide.
Then again a lot of them I'm talking about well they just happen to be the DZO and the S&TA.

I was at a large boogie and one of the "joe cool" pro tour swoopers can over the top of the spectators area
and kicked the hat off an old man's head (not an accident) I was very surprised to see that this person was not grounded for the day and or kicked off the dz, the old man was very pissed off and had every right to be.
But because of who this "joe cool swooper" was, he was right back up in the air.

Remember back in the day when you used to be able to yank a reserve handle and ground someone for being a stupid fuck.
You won't see it happen in todays sport!
I for one have no problem yanking a handle and I don't care who the hell it is.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[mjosparky 3]

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you can get really really good at something if you do it over and over and over, even if it is "the wrong way".

Yea, and 2 of the best canopy pilot going just hammered in.

I would have a talk with and let him know that his actions are making others uncomfortable. See if would be kind enough to follow the rules that everyone else does.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[speedy 0]

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You have a very experienced jumper

Here is some sound advice from someone with more experience than myself and a direct quote from a post in this forum.

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try to listen when someone with more experience talks.

and

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don't argue with them

and

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I don't assume I am right

So, I would say that although you may feel what they are doing is dangerous, when you have as many jumps as they have, maybe you will feel different.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[Andy9o8 0]

You're either missing the point, or you're proving it.

[wmw999 2,148]

You, or some respected jumper at your dropzone, could bring up exactly what you said -- that the margin of error is so small.

You tell him that because the jumpers at your dropzone are not used to his ways, they may not automatically adjust correctly, and someone might get hurt. Don't tell him he might get hurt -- he's very used to doing things his way, and unless he can respect whoever is telling him, he's going to blow off the comment.

But if you tell him that the jumpers at your DZ are not predictable when faced with landing and pattern habits like his, he might well react better.

And if he tells you why it's not as bad as it seems, it's probably good to listen. But if he just tells you that he knows everything, you've done nothing but piss him off -- which is OK. If he's pissed off, he'll leave earlier, taking his habits with him.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[popsjumper 2]

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...I for one have no problem yanking a handle and I don't care who the hell it is.~

Good stuff. I, for one, would feel much safer with someone like you looking after us youngsters.
I know of a couple of DZs that need you.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[sundevil777 94]

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Remember back in the day when you used to be able to yank a reserve handle and ground someone for being a stupid fuck.
You won't see it happen in todays sport!
I for one have no problem yanking a handle and I don't care who the hell it is.

I do remember that method being talked about. IMO not very effective, except at getting a phyiscal fight started.

They might have a second rig (are you going to ask them first). Might borrow from someone else that doesn't know of the grounding, or doesn't care. Might be a rigger and just close it up again.

Emotionally satisfying, but there are more effective and less provocative ways to accomplish the grounding.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[popsjumper 2]

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...Emotionally satisfying, but there are more effective and less provocative ways to accomplish the grounding.

You're right in all respects but do you have other suggestions on how to handle a situation like this?

Thanks in advance

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[sundevil777 94]

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...Emotionally satisfying, but there are more effective and less provocative ways to accomplish the grounding.

You're right in all respects but do you have other suggestions on how to handle a situation like this?

Thanks in advance

If a DZO or S&TA wants to ground someone, then ground them. You work with manifest to not allow them on board the aircraft they operate.

Being a DZO or S&TA does not give someone the right to mess with anothers property.

I might think violence would result if the pulling reserve method is used. Or maybe the grounded jumper might take it upon themselves to pull all the DZs tandem rig reserve handles.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[L.O. 0]

letm have it. I am a swooper and a hot shot I do stuff that blows peoples minds all the time. I expect to receive a verbal beating or a grounding if it's over the top. When you do stuff like that you know it's coming. If I keep getting away with it, I do it more and I do it harder. So don't hold back. we(people who think they are without flaw) need people like you(people who know better) to help us step back a stride or two from time to time. Thanks for giving a s$%t

HPDBs, I hate those guys.
AFB, charter member.

[davelepka 4]

It easy. Have the DZO or S&TA review the rules of the DZ with them, specificaly those pretaining to the pattern and landings. If he does it again, his day is over.

I don't care who you are, you go to someone elses DZ, you play by their rules, or you go home.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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If a DZO or S&TA wants to ground someone, then ground them. You work with manifest to not allow them on board the aircraft they operate.

This seems like the only reasonably effective way to ground someone.

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Being a DZO or S&TA does not give someone the right to mess with anothers property.

That would definitely piss me off enough too make it my mission to ruin the DZO's day.

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I might think violence would result if the pulling reserve method is used. Or maybe the grounded jumper might take it upon themselves to pull all the DZs tandem rig reserve handles.

That would be a nice way of reacting to such childish attempts at grounding jumpers.

People tend to be reasonable. There is no need for a DZO to be an asshole to get his point across, unless other alternatives have already been exhausted.

For Great Deals on Gear

[stratostar 5]

All I'm saying is if someone is that endangering to others that they need to 'sitting on the sidelines"
if they don't care to respect others airspace.
If you try to kill me being a dumbass and it come's to throwing blows, oh well then that is how it will be, you don't have a right to take me or another out,
I do have the right to stand up aginst someone who shows repeatedly no regard for others safety.
I'm talking about someone who has been talked to already and didn't care to listen to the others concerns about their safety, not the one time fuck up.
If it takes yanking a handle to do it, then so be it.
If more DZO's and S&ta's would do the job in the first place (grounding someone) when it needs to be inforced we would have less wreckless actions of the few who have no respect others safety.
Sorry but today we just don't ground people and sometimes some people need to sit on the side lines and to understand that their actions won't be put up with by the others they endanger, instead of being run off the dz down the road to endanger others at another dz!
Sorry but I've seen it happen to many times in the last 12 yrs.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Sorry but today we just don't ground people and sometimes some people need to sit on the side lines and to understand that their actions won't be put up with by the others they endanger, instead of being run off the dz down the road to endanger others at another dz!

This gets back to the safety vs. profit discussion. Not many DZOs are willing to ground the jumpers that are making a dozen jumps each day to pacify the jumpers that are making far fewer.

For Great Deals on Gear

[sundevil777 94]

I understand where you're coming from, but a DZO is able to ground someone if they wish to without pulling a reserve.

Pulling a reserve will not prevent (for very long, at least) someone from going elsewhere to jump. To accomplish that requires that the first DZO communicate their concerns with others in the area.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[riggerrob 558]

What if the senior tandem instructor refuses to be on the same airplane as the - offending - hot shot?

Manifest listens when the most profitable part of the business grinds to a halt.

[riggerrob 558]

The first step involves reminding the hot shot about local traffic patterns.

The second step includes a repeat of local traffic patterns and a reminder that we expect senior jumpers to set a good example to junior jumpers.

The third step involves telling manifest to ignore him.

If he ignores all three warnings and tries to sneak on an airplane, then the DZO has every right to pull his reserve ripcord (fourth step). "Go bounce on some other DZ!"

[riggerrob 558]

I was at a large boogie and one of the "joe cool" pro tour swoopers can over the top of the spectators area
and kicked the hat off an old man's head (not an accident) I was very surprised to see that this person was not grounded for the day and or kicked off the dz, the old man was very pissed off and had every right to be.
But because of who this "joe cool swooper" was, he was right back up in the air.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I would have held "joe cool swooper" while the old guy slapped him.

"Joe cool swooper" clearly has never heard the first rule of demo jumps: don't hurt spectators.

[jlmiracle 7]

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was at a large boogie and one of the "joe cool" pro tour swoopers can over the top of the spectators area
and kicked the hat off an old man's head (not an accident) I was very surprised to see that this person was not grounded for the day and or kicked off the dz, the old man was very pissed off and had every right to be

We were at a boogie and a jumper landed on my husband in the spectater area where we were packing. The guy that hit him, didn't make a peep (no heads up, nothing) when in was coming in and very obviously not going to make the landing area. There was no heads up, nothing. The locals, including the S&TA came over and looked at the guy, turned away, and said oh, that's no surprise. And then the guy gets on another load.

Nothing happened to this guy. He was a local and no one even talked to him about any of the many mistakes he made.


j

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

[sundevil777 94]

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We were at a boogie and a jumper landed on my husband in the spectater area where we were packing. The guy that hit him, didn't make a peep (no heads up, nothing) when in was coming in and very obviously not going to make the landing area. There was no heads up, nothing. The locals, including the S&TA came over and looked at the guy, turned away, and said oh, that's no surprise. And then the guy gets on another load.

Nothing happened to this guy. He was a local and no one even talked to him about any of the many mistakes he made.

Now that guy might deserve his reserve pulled, as an alternative to a more violent response.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am