SOS System, what to do with a collapse under a 1000ft.

[azureriders 0]

It is common practice on my DZ not to tell the students that they have a SOS system. We are taught to look right, grab right, look left, pull right, thumbs in and pull left. Thanks to alot of you here on DZ.com and some homework on my part I was able to detect the SOS system during gear check in my FJC. I was then told that students are not told of this because they don't want us to think we can pull silver without red and therefore start bad habbits. Made since to me at the time

The day I did level 6&7, the board was full and it looked like someone was going to get bumped, but my instructor introduced me to another AFFI that was there that day sport jumping and told me that he would be jumping with me, this was great for me because no one got bumped and the AFFI that we were used to got to jump with my level 3 wife.

Out on the tar mat my new AFFI is going over alot of things that I probably already know but he dont know me so lets be sure. hand signals, hard deck, how do you cut away, etc etc, oh and what if you get a collapse under 1000ft, (little windy that day, on and off of weather hold all day). I quickly respond, "more shit is better than less shit" he grined and knew that I understood not to cut away so low, then it hit me, "HEY, wait a minute, this rig has a SOS on it!!!!!"

Sorry so long

Dont take this as a bash on my DZ, the guys are great and I did get an answer for my question, it just happens to be one of those that I would like some more input on and I will be talking to the other instructors about this, atleast until I get off rented gear

[riggerrob 561]

If your main canopy collapses at low altitude, your first move should be to apply 3/4 brakes.

[azureriders 0]

yeah, that was the first part of my Instructors answer was to make sure that I knew how to reinflate a canopy. But my real question lies more in the uniflateable situation, a chop or dump the reserve into it queston, only with a SOS

[slotperfect 7]

This is such a good question, I am going to move it to S&T. It will get better attention there and it won't get bumped off the front page as fast.

Arrive Safely

John

[mark 104]

With SOS, once you are below do-not-cutaway-below altitude, you are landing whatever you have out. Time you'd spend trying to pull the reserve ripcord without pulling the yellow cables is time better spent working on the main canopy.

While you're working on reinflating your main canopy, put your feet and knees together so you can do the best PLF in world history. You'll be landing soon.

I'd be interested in hearing from jumpers who had to deal with canopy collapses while they were students. I don't imagine there are very many.

Mark

[azureriders 0]

thanks John

[Orange1 0]

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I'd be interested in hearing from jumpers who had to deal with canopy collapses while they were students. I don't imagine there are very many.

I had a partial collapse (though not on SOS system), low. Turning onto final, thermic activity, half the canopy collapsed and turned me round, it reinflated itself but I knew I was too low to turn back and took a downwind landing - my scariest moment in skydiving so far - first looking up and seeing laundry, and then winds that were almost at max for students so my downwind ground speed was really fast AND i had to dodge a couple of trees. Think I was on jump 8 or 9. I was fine, though completely coated with sand inside and out!

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[azureriders 0]

It has been pointed out to me that the rig I jump is not what some of you may call a true SOS. The gear that I jump:

has a red cutaway handle with a set of cut away cables to the 3 ring

has an RSL

has a reserve silver D that has both a reserve rip chord and a second set of cut away cables to the 3 rings.


while this may not be a true SOS, the question is still the same because I have no way of deploying the reserve without first cuting away the main.

[FlyinseivLP2 0]

If we are talking about a canopy collapse due to turbulence, I would not be thinking about a canopy transfer anyways. IF you are high enough to get your reserve out then 99.9% of the time your main will reinflate way before your reserve will. If you don't have the altitude for for main to reinflate, then your reserve would not do you any good either. Something like a canopy wrap would be a much more likley scenerio where the SOS would be an issue. I honestly don't know what to do if you wanted to do it(we have never used SOS). Just wanted to point out that turbulence would not normally warrant a canopy transfer or cutaway. Best suggestion is to not jump in high or gusty winds.

[riggerrob 561]

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If we are talking about a canopy collapse due to turbulence, I would not be thinking about a canopy transfer anyways.

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Canopy transfers fell out of fashion about 20 years ago, about the same time square reserves came into fashion.

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[azureriders 0]

Ok, I have a bad habit of giving too much information and I guess my story of how this question came up leads everyone to try and figure out what I am worried about, turbulence, collision, etc.

Everyone has a min cutaway altitude and seems to me that most everyone agrees that under that altitude with a ball of shit over your head you are better off dumping more shit into it rather than cutting it, when you dont have sufficient time, or riding the smaller ball of shit.

No matter what caused the situation, there seems to be a point when "Hmmmm, shit or more shit?" Now my question is just simply this, in the same exact situation with a SOS, what would you do????

My instructors comments: (maybe this will prompt some more discussion or flameing. LOL)

Observe your decision altitude

in the event of something odd happening under your decision altitude then never ever cut away below 1000'

if in this event you are below 1000', then the more silk the better, pull silver but dont cutaway

This is where I asked about the SOS and then he changed his comments as follows

There is no real answer to this (this is the same answer that I expect here but I would really like to hear as much input as possible)

then there was a long discussion on canopy reinflation

in an extreme situation you could probably lower that 1000' to 500'

then another long discussion on the 50% rule which is a personal assessment of each indivdual situation where you must decide which option gives you better than a 50% survival rate. This is a rule that I totally understand and being a very decisive person I have no doubt that I would make a quick decision and act apon it. Would it be the right decision, who knows

[riggerrob 561]

The last time I suffered a canopy collapse at 40 feet, I immediately applied 3/4 brakes and clamped my knees together in preparation for a hard landing. My PLF resulted in a series of bruises all the way up my left side, from my left ankle to the left side of my head.
Then I freaked out the ground crew by shakily standing up, and dusting myself off.
A classic military parachute landing fall allowed me to walk away from a hard landing that would have broken mere mortals.
That was also the last time that I wore a leather hat on a solo jump.

[Andy9o8 0]

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That was also the last time that I wore a leather hat on a solo jump.

Just want to emphasize that, even if it's a side issue. IMO, unless you're doing a water jump (or are a tandem student), this is the reason to wear a hard helmet on every jump, even a solo h&p.

[slotperfect 7]

Billy Rhodes, a USPA AFF Course Director and very good friend and colleague, had this to say, {my comments in brackets}. Quoted with Billy's permission:

"The 1000 FT 'do-not-cut-away-below altitude' was chosen by USPA for inclusion in the SIM because it will still give a reserve time to open completely, even if the rig uses an SOS. {I believe that TSO requirements for reserve opening are in the 300 FT range}From his experience, most DZs that use SOS-equipped rigs, or dual-function rigs (like some of the Student Javelins we use at Raeford) raise their 'do-not-cut-away-below altitude' to 1500 FT. He added a word of caution that on the dual-function rigs, the cutaway handle DOES NOT perform both functions, it depends upon the RSL to open the reserve container. {The left side performs both functions with one handle.}

Great question.

Arrive Safely

John

[jheadley 0]

What if you grabbed the RSL and just yanked on it, pulling the reserve pin, like you can do on a vector tandem? Just a thought

[azureriders 0]

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What if you grabbed the RSL and just yanked on it, pulling the reserve pin, like you can do on a vector tandem? Just a thought

I actually suggested putting a RSL ball on these rigs. I think this would be a good idea for a licensed jumper who is jumping these rigs, such as the rental gear that I am jumping, but may be complicating things for the student??????? but what do I know

[mark 104]

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What if you grabbed the RSL and just yanked on it, pulling the reserve pin, like you can do on a vector tandem?

You or I could do it if we remembered to peel the velcro before trying to pull (with RSLs held in place with velcro). It's an awkward move, made worse by the absence of a good grip and the need to pull the ripcord cable between closely-set guide rings instead of pulling on the pin directly like a Tandem Vector RSL.

I wouldn't expect a student to be able to do it. The problem is that even with very good instruction, we all have limits to what we're able to retain for recall under stress. if you spend more time training your student for this unlikely event, you make it more probable that he or she will have an inappropriate reaction to a more likely event.

Mark

[Reginald 0]

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My instructors comments: (maybe this will prompt some more discussion or flameing. LOL)

in an extreme situation you could probably lower that 1000' to 500'

An AFFI told you you could "probably" cut away at 500 feet?

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[azureriders 0]

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An AFFI told you you could "probably" cut away at 500 feet?

I probably worded that so that you could take it out of context.

The discusion was what to do if you found yourself very low with a SOS or dual cutaway rig pulling a streamer. Now I know the correct thing to do is to never find yourself at that point, but just for the sake of argueing lets say you were.

The AFFI's comment was to the effect that if the streamer was not going to inflate and going to let you burn it in, you may as well pull the reserve handle, which will cut away your main on this type of rig, and hope for the best, however under 500' the streamer is probably going to do you more good than anything you get out of pulling the reserve and loosing the main.

I have had several long and in depth conversations with several instructors, one S&TA and a few well respected DZ.COMers about this type of rig. It is designed so that if a student freaks out and only pulls one handle then both actions are performed, cutaway and reserve deployment. Like with any good thing there seem to be drawbacks as well. IMO one draw back for this rig is there is no real answer to the question above, other than the obvious don't be there and have a plan and stick to it, even if there is no right plan

[slotperfect 7]

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It is designed so that if a student freaks out and only pulls one handle then both actions are performed

If he pulls the wrong handle first (reserve handle), both actions are performed.

If he pulls the cutaway handle only, reserve deployment is dependent upon the RSL.

Arrive Safely

John

[USPA 0]

How would this help?

(you need speed to reinflate and pulling the tail != (does not equal) pulling up the nose)

The trouble with skydiving; If you stink at it and continue to jump, you'll die. If you're good at it and continue to jump, you'll see a lot of friends die...

[azureriders 0]

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If he pulls the cutaway handle only, reserve deployment is dependent upon the RSL.

Exactly

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you need speed to reinflate and pulling the tail != (does not equal) pulling up the nose)

Don't want to argue with you given my jump numbers, but going to half breaks is exactly what I was taught to reinflate a canopy. Increases the angle of attack and allows more air more quickly into the nose (you would need more air speed to get more pressure). Is that not why we pack our canopies at half breaks? Someone correct or support me please.

[billvon 2,442]

> How would this help?

The canopy is designed to open most reliably when the brakes are set. That's why it's a good position to go to if your canopy collapses. Canopies do not inflate from the nose back; they inflate their bottom skins first, then pressurize.

[riggerrob 561]

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How would this help?

(you need speed to reinflate and pulling the tail != (does not equal) pulling up the nose)

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You are confusing Brian Germain's theory with my experience under 220 square, 9-cell, foot F-111 canopies.
Please don't ask me the theory, I just know that going to 3/4 brakes usually opens collapsed end cells. That manuver has saved my @#$% more times than I care to remember.

While Brian's theory may work best on sub-170 square foot, ZP canopy with air-locks, my experience has been vastly different under larger, slower canopies (read old-school).

[bfar 0]

Is there any risk of a student AAD firing following a low collapse?