Assisted Suicide

[SkyDekker 1,122]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

The main point being the psychological/emotional toll it will take on healthcare workers to perform assisted suicide on people and it's long-term effects. That should be a moral concern. 

Absolutely it should be a concern. However, I don't believe we should put the potential suffering of those who can choose to do something else over the actual suffering of those who do not have a choice. That would be morally wrong in my opinion.

[BIGUN 1,053]

8 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

Absolutely it should be a concern. However, I don't believe we should put the potential suffering of those who can choose to do something else over the actual suffering of those who do not have a choice. That would be morally wrong in my opinion.

Just as with my beliefs on Capital Punishment - A permanent solution demands a perfect process; I'd have to see it before I vote. 

[gowlerk 1,912]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

The main point being the psychological/emotional toll it will take on healthcare workers to perform assisted suicide on people and it's long-term effects. That should be a moral concern. 

I know people who work with the local MAID team here. They are proud of what they do, almost like it is a mission to provide this care. The thing that you are missing is that those healthcare workers have all seen the other side and held the hands of people who died the hard way.  People who work on execution teams have been shown to suffer from PTSD. 

[SkyDekker 1,122]

11 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Just as with my beliefs on Capital Punishment - A permanent solution demands a perfect process; I'd have to see it before I vote. 

A permanent solution being imposed against one's will and having the ability to have a permanent solution available if one choses to pursue are nowhere near equivalent.

[BIGUN 1,053]

4 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

A permanent solution being imposed against one's will and having the ability to have a permanent solution available if one choses to pursue are nowhere near equivalent.

Have you seen or even heard of the mistakes made in healthcare?

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Just now, BIGUN said:

Have you seen or even heard of the mistakes made in healthcare?

Yes. "I thought he wanted to die" hasn't been one of them.

[BIGUN 1,053]

7 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

"I thought he wanted to die" hasn't been one of them.

Charles Cullen, Jonathan Hayes, William Davis, etc. etc. Look up, "Angels of Mercy." 

[gowlerk 1,912]

Just now, BIGUN said:

Charles Cullen, Jonathan Hayes, William Davis, etc. etc. Look up, "Angels of Mercy." 

Those are murderers operating outside of any sanction. I don't see how you can even begin to consider them in the same light as assisted care in dieing.

[BIGUN 1,053]

1 minute ago, gowlerk said:

I don't see how you can even begin to consider them in the same light as assisted care in dieing.

They thought they WERE the assisted care. 

[gowlerk 1,912]

1 minute ago, BIGUN said:

They thought they WERE the assisted care. 

YOU should look up "Angel of Mercy" and read about the main motivations of these serial killers. Only a small portion of them thought they were doing good. But in any case the MAID program is a multi-discplinary team approach to making rational informed decisions. You comparing it to serial killing is both misguided and very insulting to them.

[BIGUN 1,053]

1 minute ago, gowlerk said:

You comparing it to serial killing is both misguided and very insulting to them.

You can put your Karen back in the box. That's not what I'm saying and you know it. So, the liberals are opposed to the death penalty becuase mistakes can be made, but there can ne no mistakes with MAID? C'mon, man. 

[gowlerk 1,912]

1 minute ago, BIGUN said:

You can put your Karen back in the box. That's not what I'm saying and you know it. So, the liberals are opposed to the death penalty becuase mistakes can be made, but there can ne no mistakes with MAID? C'mon, man. 

What you "are saying" seems to shift around a bit when logical flaws are pointed out to you. I thought Keren was that woman asking to see the manager? Not someone who you can just bring out as a minor insult to me when you don't have a real justification for your words.

[BIGUN 1,053]

10 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Only a small portion of them thought they were doing good. But in any case

'nuff said. 

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

28 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

You can put your Karen back in the box. That's not what I'm saying and you know it. So, the liberals are opposed to the death penalty becuase mistakes can be made, but there can ne no mistakes with MAID? C'mon, man. 

Hi Keith,

I accept that every system we have created we have made mistakes.  It is what it is.

However, to just toss the idea of assisted suicide is like throwing the baby out with the bath water.

I will accept 'some' mistakes, knowing that we will continue to work to make the system better as we progress. *

To me, it is sort of like when Wendy posts about the seat belt analogy.  They are not perfect but they save more lives than would be saved without them.

Jerry Baumchen

* Think about the hand-deploy system as introduced in 1974 vs the hand-deploy system we have today.

[billvon 2,400]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

So, the liberals are opposed to the death penalty becuase mistakes can be made, but there can ne no mistakes with MAID? C'mon, man. 

I am OK with both - as long as the number of mistakes is low _enough._

[SkyDekker 1,122]

2 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Charles Cullen, Jonathan Hayes, William Davis, etc. etc. Look up, "Angels of Mercy." 

That has nothing to do with legalized and regulated assisted suicide.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

1 hour ago, BIGUN said:

the liberals are opposed to the death penalty becuase mistakes can be made, but there can ne no mistakes with MAID? C'mon, man. 

I explained prior how this is a false equivalency. 

[SkyDekker 1,122]

1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

I will accept 'some' mistakes,

What mistakes? There are countries where euthanasia is legal. Can you point to any case where there has been a mistaken euthanisation?

[gowlerk 1,912]

37 minutes ago, SkyDekker said:

What mistakes? There are countries where euthanasia is legal. Can you point to any case where there has been a mistaken euthanisation?

These are all gut level emotional objections that have not been thought through completely. Emotions are hard to overcome, and death brings out a lot of intense feelings. Most likely he will come around slowly as he thinks about it more. Maybe not to complete acceptance. There are people who consider their religious views to be completely at odds with assisted dying. If that is the viewpoint I have nothing to say, there is no answer to satisfy those kind of objections. But that is not what I'm hearing from BIGUN.

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

2 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

What mistakes? There are countries where euthanasia is legal. Can you point to any case where there has been a mistaken euthanisation?

Hi Sky,

I never said that there had been any 'mistakes.'

Jerry Baumchen

[BIGUN 1,053]

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

But that is not what I'm hearing from BIGUN.

Thanks, Ken. I struggle with it, but not from a religious perspective. I've had to pull the plug on a family member. No matter how much medical information you're provided, you always wonder if you made the right decision. Right now, we're going through another family member EoL; DNR, not DNR, etc. etc. So, perhaps this is not the best time for me to assess the situation, but I'll leave it on the note of I am not completely opposed to it, but it needs to be six sigma'd before I'd vote on it.  

[BIGUN 1,053]

2 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

Can you point to any case where there has been a mistaken euthanisation?

Sky, the irony in this caused me quite the laugh. "God, they fucked this one up, send me back NOW!!"

Edited December 16, 2022 by BIGUN

[SkyDekker 1,122]

29 minutes ago, BIGUN said:

Thanks, Ken. I struggle with it, but not from a religious perspective. I've had to pull the plug on a family member. No matter how much medical information you're provided, you always wonder if you made the right decision. Right now, we're going through another family member EoL; DNR, not DNR, etc. etc. So, perhaps this is not the best time for me to assess the situation, but I'll leave it on the note of I am not completely opposed to it, but it needs to be six sigma'd before I'd vote on it.  

Tough to go through for sure, wish you strength in the days to come.

Do want to clarify that I am speaking of the process where a patient of sound mind requests euthanasia, I am not discussing, nor advocating for a process where people request this for incapacitated patients.

[BIGUN 1,053]

14 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

Do want to clarify that I am speaking of the process where a patient of sound mind requests euthanasia

Apologies if you thought I understood it any other way - "I, _____________Being of sound mind . . ." 

 

14 hours ago, SkyDekker said:

I am not discussing, nor advocating for a process where people request this for incapacitated patients.

This would be a scary slippery slope to me, but at the same time there is a certain level of pain  . . . In my own experience, I watched people burning to death and wanted to take them out to end their suffering sooner. So, I am not 100% opposed to it, but as a societal norm . . . you get the idea. 

Death is final. There's no coming back. I's dotted, T's crossed. No mistakes. kinda guy

[JoeWeber 2,299]

15 hours ago, BIGUN said:

Sky, the irony in this caused me quite the laugh. "God, they fucked this one up, send me back NOW!!"

So far no one has complained afterwards so what's your problem?