Loose handle...

[Freeflysmiley 2]

There is always the possibility, that you throw the main, its okay. Then a bit lower, you fuck with the cable trying to push it in, or it just works out and you've just lost your main at 500ft........

I'd say try the main, but if in doubt get rid.

--------------------------------------------------
Practise the 6 P's!
--------------------------------------------------

[lilchief 0]

As said by tbrown, you start to fixate on the cutawayhandle and if your risers will hold or not, and even maybe start mid-freefall rigging. How cool headed are you that you don't loose track of your altitude? will you fight or go silver?

You can fuck up a lot of things cause we are humans, and it's in our nature to not perform perfectly 24/7.
This is one of many reasons AAD's are mandatory to me.

"Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you long to return." - Da Vinci
www.lilchief.no

[pjc 0]

Me... I'd pull it completely (& keep it) and then go silver (no messing). Wasn't that pic also on the cover of last months BPA Skydive Mag?

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

Me... I'd pull it completely (& keep it) and then go silver (no messing). Wasn't that pic also on the cover of last months BPA Skydive Mag?

This is what I was trained to do, have been practicing to do and hopefully, will do if the time comes. I trust my rigger's reserve pack...if it screws up, I aim for him.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[davelepka 4]

Quote

You can fuck up a lot of things cause we are humans, and it's in our nature to not perform perfectly 24/7.
This is one of many reasons AAD's are mandatory to me.

Thats fucked up. Your AAD is there to save your ass when some one else fucks up, and brings you into the fray.

Nobody expects you to be perfect 24/7. For the few minutes between exit and landing on the other hand, you better be damn close.

[Schoenauer 0]

All speculation, but if the jumper became aware that they had a floating cutaway handle the proper response I would imagine is disconnect RSL first, if so equipped, then deploy the main. Of course this would be done while stable belly to earth.

If it was me and I had time, and knowing I do not have an RSL, I would check the three rings and if one was released I would go reserve. I wouldn’t bother with the main. If I didn’t have the time I would go main then reserve if needed, it’s a gamble if the main risers are connected.

As for midair rigging, I wouldn't.

Memento Mori

[Zoter 0]

This incident highlights that even your reserve 'can' fail........and may be relevant for consideration in this particular thread.
Granted there were a few circumstances that tilted the balance against the jumper.....but even so.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2171368

[darnknit 0]

Quote

I would imagine is disconnect RSL first,

As for midair rigging, I wouldn't.

disconnecting an rsl in freefall is midair rigging.

pulling is cool. keep it in the skin

[Floats18 0]

Is disconnecting an RSL in freefall midair rigging???

If I ever suffer a horseshoe w/ a pilot chute I can't extract, I'm going for that RSL tab before I cut away if altitude allows.

Edit to add: USPA recomends the disconnect of your RSL during a wrap, downplane or sidebyside cutaway if altidue allows. I've gotta disagree w/ you

--- and give them wings so they may fly free forever

DiverDriver in Training

[davelepka 4]

Quote

USPA recomends the disconnect of your RSL during a wrap, downplane or sidebyside cutaway if altidue allows. I've gotta disagree w/ you

All of the above scenarios involve a GREATLY reduced airspeed. Two of them involve all every canopy you have being out and inflated.

A HUGE difference from freefall.

Use your brain before your attitude there, killer.

[Floats18 0]

Hey, what about the horseshoe though?

If you find yourself at 6k feet trailing a mess that you can't get rid of, wouldn't you rather burn 2k feet disconnecting your RSL and cutting away and clearing the mess from above your reserve container before you fire your last chance through a forest of suspension lines which are now completely twisted and tangled?

I'd rather deploy below 4k feet with a better chance than deploy higher and have less of a chance, but more time to fight.

I am seriously intrested in everyone's opinion, and I haven't ment to convey any type of attitude, I don't have the jump numbers for that.

--- and give them wings so they may fly free forever

DiverDriver in Training

[davelepka 4]

It's a slippery slope.

If you cannot clear the horseshoe and have a regular cutaway, you're hoping that disconnecting the risers will transfer enough drag to the snag point to clear it and kiss the mess goodbye.

So you take 2k to unhook the RSL. Now how long do you wait to see if the snag will clear? Do you try to clear it manually, or hope it will happen by itself?

Either way, you're buring up altitude. Fast.

If it doesn't clear, you've just wasted that time, as you still have to dump your reserve into the mess.

Where do you want to spenmd your time? In freefall trying to get a clean reserve deployment, or under a canopy (or partial canopy) trying to work out an entanglement?

Either way, you're probably fucked. The horseshoe is the worst kind of malfunction. It's too random to apply a single course of action to . The best thing you can do is be educated and proactive about gear maintenence, and be a freak about people touching your stuff at any time.

[Floats18 0]

The picture (horribly) shows what I'm going for.

Without disconnecting the RSL there's no point in cutting away, 'cuz the pilot chute is going right up in that mess as soon as the risers clear anyway.

I'd rather have my reserve dance with the main after linestreach....

Thoughts?

I agree w/ the gear mantinence hardcore. w00t w00t new closing loops.

--- and give them wings so they may fly free forever

DiverDriver in Training

[davelepka 4]

You're making alot of assumptions about your horseshoe.

Why not just clear the PC from the pouch in your picture?

How did the riser covers come open?

Why is your horseshoe also a baglock?

See how the possibilities stack up for how a horseshoe can be configured?

How much time would you spend evaluating your horseshoe before taking action?

This is one of those scenarios where you really are fucked. You have a complicated mess going on, and you're moving really really fast. Even if you have 10k ft to work with it, nothing says you can get an accurate assesment of the problem.

Even if you can asses the problem, can you formulate the correct actions to fix it?

I think you're looking for answers that don't exist.

[Floats18 0]

Alright-

I guess we'll all just have to wrestle that bull when it shows up all pissed off

Horsehoe is definatly a chaotic malfunction and the term covers a wide variety of problems, i agree mine is very specific.

I guess if its anything, i suppose it would be wise to devise a plan for as many horseshoe mal variations as possible. Plan the dive and dive the plan, right?

--- and give them wings so they may fly free forever

DiverDriver in Training

[Praetorian 1]

Quote

I guess we'll all just have to wrestle that bull when it shows up all pissed off

NO NO NO I don't ascribe to the no point in talking about it line. Simply DISCUSS all options you can think of, when someone says, well in a baglocked (like the diagram) there is nothing wrong with describing one flavor of Fu#ked and say how you would deal with it, arguements about the best courso of action should be specific to that flavor of Fu#ked and then we can go on to the next flavor... if we find enough where we can agree (or each of us personally feels, after all in the end it is our own ass on the line) that a LOT of flavors have a set best response we can train that as our basic response to a horseshue. leaving the rest of the discussion for the unlikely place where we have a lot of altitude to really "work" the problem (meaning more than just the distance from normal pull to decision altitude) in a High speed mal I have about 7 seconds MAX between normal pull alt and my "screw all else pull silver" altitude

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

NO NO NO I don't ascribe to the no point in talking about it line. Simply DISCUSS all options you can think of, when someone says, well in a baglocked (like the diagram) there is nothing wrong with describing one flavor of Fu#ked and say how you would deal with it, arguements about the best courso of action should be specific to that flavor of Fu#ked and then we can go on to the next flavor... if we find enough where we can agree (or each of us personally feels, after all in the end it is our own ass on the line) that a LOT of flavors have a set best response we can train that as our basic response to a horseshue

OK, then get to work. The possibilities for a horseshoe are almost limitless. Mix in with that the fact that many horeshoes don't happen on deployment, but mid-skydive, now your alittude becomes a factor.

How high are you? How much time can you apply to assesing your horseshoe? Do you think you have the presence of mind in such a situation to make a complicated judgement with any sort of accuracy?

Understand the nature of what you're dealing with. It's scope is broad, and covers many, many possible scenarios, all of them occuring at high speed.

Take the most basic horseshoe. Pin pulled, PC still in pouch. Try to clear the PC, once or twice. IF ti comes out, see what kind of deployment follows. If it doens't come out, pull your handles.

It's not rocket science. A horsehsoe is a pile shit, and you can't apply rocket science to a pile of shit.

[Praetorian 1]

Quote

It's not rocket science. A horsehsoe is a pile shit, and you can't apply rocket science to a pile of shit.

I still see value in thinking about incidents BEFORE they occur, you have NO time in flight, you have INFINITE(relatively) time on the ground. When I think about skydiving at home, at night, on the ride home, I think about all the shit that can go WRONG and plan my response AHEAD of time, same as training to turn RIGHT in the event of an imminent Head on collision. to chop or not to chop in the event of a TOTAL. How to maintain altitude awearness, what to do if you find yourself low. thinking about your response and visualizing the problem before hand, discussing even improbable events

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[davelepka 4]

I feel your pain. Really I do.

Have a look at an AC ops manual. They have all sorts of procedures for different malfunctions. There are also far more malfunctions that could occur that they don't have a procudure for becasue the number fo variables involved are too great to cover with any accuracy.

Your rig is the same way. There are mals we can train for. Line overs, or bag locks, those are easy to understand and remedy.

The horsehoe invovles many variables. Type of rig and nature of deploment system. RSL. Skyhook. Collins laynard. SOS. Conventional handles. Nature of and location of snag. Altitude. Frame of mind.

All of these add up to no single solution. As I said before, if you want to pour over the possibilities, then go for it. You'll also end up filling your brain with ideas, all of which require an assesment of the horseshoe to correctly apply.

If you think you can monitor your altitude, correctly asses the problem, select the appropriate solution, and follow through with the correct action, all while ridging the mother of all malfunctions, than godspeed to you.

I'll prefer to train for the basic horseshoe, and work to prevent it. If it should happen to me, I'll do what I trained for, GET A CANOPY OUT, and see how things look then.

Above all you need to remember that you're in freefall. Time is not on your side. Horseshoes happen behind you where you can't see them. Keep telling yourself over and over that you can scroll through your list of what-ifs, and thats what you'll do. Still in freefall. Falling. Quickly.

People go in struggling with the most basic mals. They cutaway late, and pull sliver even later. This is with a simple and straighforward procedure. Making it more complicated will make it easier to screw up.

[darnknit 0]

Quote

Hey, what about the horseshoe though?

uspa makes no mention of disconnecting the rsl in the event of a horseshoe.

pulling is cool. keep it in the skin

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Alright-

I guess we'll all just have to wrestle that bull when it shows up all pissed off

Horsehoe is definatly a chaotic malfunction and the term covers a wide variety of problems, i agree mine is very specific.

I guess if its anything, i suppose it would be wise to devise a plan for as many horseshoe mal variations as possible. Plan the dive and dive the plan, right?

A lot of people have gone in the ground "trying to wrestle that pissed off bull".

You are not going to be able to devise a plan for every scenario that you may run into. A horseshoe is a horseshoe and is a high-speed malfunction. Get together with an instructor or someone else with a load of experience that you trust and go over some to the possibilities you should be looking at.

Skydiving is not rocket science and if you over complicate it, it can come back and bite you in the butt.

Not the final word on things by any means, but something to think about.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[billvon 2,400]

>Without disconnecting the RSL there's no point in cutting away, 'cuz the
>pilot chute is going right up in that mess as soon as the risers clear anyway.

That may be. But odds are that if you go in due to a horseshoe, it will be because you took corrective action too late, not because you didn't accurately diagnose the problem. There will always be corner cases, but 99.9% of the time, your standard emergency procedures are your best bet.