skydiverek 55 #51 April 11, 2006 Quote 1) What if the kill line had the pin attached to it. So after the pin is pulled, the pin is almost fully hidden in the bridle. In this case, you HAVE to cock the pilot properly for the pin to clear out so you can close your container. But I believe I've been told that there have been containerlock's where the PC with full pullforce still haven't deployed the main due to a mal with the pin and what not. If that's true, then this option is not reliable. That has been done - it was called "life-line" and came with Precision Batwing. I was told rthat design had major wear issues... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #52 April 11, 2006 Quote2)My second solutions it to add some kind of flap(like the ones covering your risers over your shoulders) to one of the closing flaps on the main container. This is then tucked into another flap or flaps. This ensuring that it stays locked even when tension is diminished when the reserve has settled nicely over your head. Maybe in combination of a stiffer piece of fabric in the end of the reservecontainer where the ADD is located. If we need more pullforce...well..just upsize the PC. I'd rather deal with the possibility of 2 out after a rare PCIT than worry about that flap snagging my lines on every deployment. No flap for me, thanks.Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #53 April 11, 2006 QuoteI was at the DZ one day when another jumper was showing us how a packer at a large DZ in Florida had packed him a mal via a misrouted bridle (pullout rig). There was no way that his main container was going to open, and the misrouting was not evident from a gear check. The jumper obviously does not know how to check a pullout bridle line. A completely closed main container with no pilot chute out is a much better environment to deploy a reserve into than an environment with a pilot chute hanging someplace above you ready to entangle with your reserve. Quote Regardless of what you do have a plan and execute it immediately. 2 grand is not the time to decide which method you want to use. I've been jumping for more than 25 years and still cannot decide which method is better. Therefore, I do not jump throw-n-tow rigs. I avoid the problem completely. QuoteHope we soon see a solution to this [ Pilot Chute in Tow ] problem It already exists and has for some time. It is called a pud, pull-out, dildo etc. Even a ripcord or SL system does not have this problem. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #54 April 11, 2006 QuoteI stopped reading replies after the first page, so if this has been posted somewhere on the second page, sorry for wasting time. Next time read the replies. Why ask a question that has been answered? QuoteSo what if we change de design to the main container? Sure, the problem is whith everything you change you invite more unknown problems. A lot of "fixes" do harm. Before AAD's there were no AAD fires. You create a new thing and new problems arrive. Not telling you to not think..Thats great, but try and think it all the way through. Quote1) What if the kill line had the pin attached to it. So after the pin is pulled, the pin is almost fully hidden in the bridle. In this case, you HAVE to cock the pilot properly for the pin to clear out so you can close your container Been done....kinda sucked. And these also broke through in the wrong place at times and you had to watch them. Quote2)My second solutions it to add some kind of flap(like the ones covering your risers over your shoulders) to one of the closing flaps on the main container. This is then tucked into another flap or flaps. This ensuring that it stays locked even when tension is diminished when the reserve has settled nicely over your head. ADDING more flaps will just add more snag points and more tension....Your idea of just adding a bigger PC will now cause the main to open harder, and make the possibility of a hard pull grow. No offense meant....But if the top dogs in rig design have not been able to find a solution....Well, then it is just not that easy. Keep thinking, but in the mean time READ the thread, or atleast don't tell us you didn't bother to read it. "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NelKel 0 #55 April 12, 2006 It already exists and has for some time. It is called a pud, pull-out, dildo etc. Even a ripcord or SL system does not have this problem. <<<< NO BUT the (ripcord and SL) meathods of main deployment have their own unique set of mals that can happen due to their design. It is possable to tow a jumper with a static line, and a spring loaded ripcord system can still jamb, or the springloaded pilot chut can become trapped in a burble. I do not think it is fair to say that your faverable use of a pud is the answer to all types of deployment problems. How do you know if your PC is cocked with a pud? What about the checking of bridle routing? Do you know if you flip the guide ring of the pud you can actualy lock the contianer? I have read your posts before and I know you favor the pud system, but I strongly disagree that is is fool proof. Any fool can fuck up a pud. The difference is you can't realy check it with out opening the container. To the original poster, have a plan and stick with it. That is the best advice one can expect from the internet. Ask your Instructors to give you an example and deminstration of the possabilities that can occur. Activation-Deployment-Inflation are the three stages of parachute opening. A malfunction can occur in any three, or multiples. to realize you have a PCIT you must have first had to activate(fists stage) there for it is a partical malfunction. I (and I mean me) will respond to it with a reserve activation. I know this is not the correct response to a partical malfunction. But it will be the correct response if I live. Stop the skydive first, then deal with a two out if prudent. Peace out._________________________________________ Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #56 April 12, 2006 QuoteIt already exists and has for some time. It is called a pud, pull-out, dildo etc. Even a ripcord or SL system does not have this problem. And I have seen people have reserve rides due to a lost PUD. So they ADD problems as well. A Ripcord can make it so a PC stays in a burble. SL can have a towed jumper."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #57 April 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteHope we soon see a solution to this [ Pilot Chute in Tow ] problem It already exists and has for some time. It is called a pud, pull-out, dildo etc. Bill Booth's thoughts on throw-out versus pull-out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #58 April 12, 2006 Quote1) What if the kill line had the pin attached to it. So after the pin is pulled, the pin is almost fully hidden in the bridle. In this case, you HAVE to cock the pilot properly for the pin to clear out so you can close your container. But I believe I've been told that there have been containerlock's where the PC with full pullforce still haven't deployed the main due to a mal with the pin and what not. If that's true, then this option is not reliable. Been done, wasn't particularly popular, adds wear issues. Quote2)My second solutions it to add some kind of flap(like the ones covering your risers over your shoulders) to one of the closing flaps on the main container. This is then tucked into another flap or flaps. This ensuring that it stays locked even when tension is diminished when the reserve has settled nicely over your head. Maybe in combination of a stiffer piece of fabric in the end of the reservecontainer where the ADD is located. If we need more pullforce...well..just upsize the PC. So you wish to INCREASE the complexity of the system and make it HARDER to deploy a main? QuoteBUT, I couldn't stop thinking of a solution to the problem. I believe someone in an interview by SkydiveRadio said: "rigg design has over time changed to solve problems". It has. It's called the pullout. OIr you could just pay attention to packing. P/C in tow is almost assuredly a packing error, easily prevented.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #59 April 12, 2006 QuoteDo you know if you flip the guide ring of the pud you can actualy lock the contianer? I have read your posts before and I know you favor the pud system, but I strongly disagree that is is fool proof. Any fool can fuck up a pud. The difference is you can't realy check it with out opening the container. Wrong. It's easily checkable.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #60 April 12, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteHope we soon see a solution to this [ Pilot Chute in Tow ] problem It already exists and has for some time. It is called a pud, pull-out, dildo etc. Bill Booth's thoughts on throw-out versus pull-out. Super. Want to post his toughts on flavored oatmeal too? Bill is a brilliant man and has some very valid oppinions, but you know it takes no thought to parrot someone elses views. Do you have an oppinion on the matter and if so what is it based on? Have you packed, inspected or jumped both a pullout, throw out, static line, and ripcord rig?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #61 April 12, 2006 The way people read and reply to threads always amazes me. I am not saying everyone ought to jump a pull-out. What I am saying is, that I jump a pull-out for these reasons. YMMV. Quote NO BUT the (ripcord and SL) meathods of main deployment have their own unique set of mals that can happen due to their design. I am well aware of the possible failure modes of each deployment system. [That article should really be updated for horseshoes on a BOC throw-out] QuoteHow do you know if your PC is cocked with a pud? You don't. QuoteWhat about the checking of bridle routing? You can check the routing before every jump. Just ask me and I will show you how to do this. I do it after the last full dress dirt dive and before I get on the plane. QuoteDo you know if you flip the guide ring of the pud you can actualy lock the contianer? I do not know what rig you are referring to. That is not the case for all rigs. I am aware of the many malfunction modes of a pull-out. I am also aware that a pilot chute in tow is NOT one of the malfunction modes. QuoteI have read your posts before and I know you favor the pud system, but I strongly disagree that is is fool proof. Any fool can fuck up a pud. The difference is you can't realy check it with out opening the container. Now there in lies a problem of perception. The pud is not fool proof, and no where do I ever say it is. You can check it for routing without opening the container. I do this on every jump I make. Perhaps, there is a learning curve for people that do not know about pull-outs? Quote And I have seen people have reserve rides due to a lost PUD. So they ADD problems as well. A Ripcord can make it so a PC stays in a burble. SL can have a towed jumper. Yes, certainly, lost/hard-pull puds add to the 'I couldn't pull the main, so I went for the reserve' scenario. This also exists on throw-outs. Statistically, you'd probably find more people going in on a lost throw out handle than a lost pull-out handle. So what's your point? The fact of the matter is that most of those people went in because they did not execute proper EPs. For the rest, I'll refer you to my top comment in this post. Quote Bill Booth's thoughts on throw-out versus pull-out. I just laugh every time I see that post quoted. Bill Booth is full of it when he says 'A pullout deployment is out of sequence by definition.' Take a GOOD look at how your reserve deploys and then ask Bill Booth if that is an 'out-of-sequence' deployment. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tnscorcoran 0 #62 April 12, 2006 Should reserves be packed so that the spring loaded pilot chute flies out in a direction away from where the main bridle would be in a PCIT. So when the jumper is in a belly to earth position as one would expect in this situation, the reserve p.chute, bag and reserve would go somewhere above and slightly forward of the jumpers head. Would this not minimise the chance of entanglement as the main p.chute would be somewhere above the jumper's ass? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #63 April 12, 2006 > I am aware of the many malfunction modes of a pull-out. I am also >aware that a pilot chute in tow is NOT one of the malfunction modes. Martin Evans' wife had a PC in tow malfunction on her pullout rig. An instructor at Brown Field had one as well. It's quite possible; some potential reasons include: -uncocked or porous PC fails to extract bag from tight container -bridle snags on closing loop/closing loop anchor -PC ties itself in a knot (seen that one) However, there's no doubt it reduces the odds of a PC in tow. It also increases the odds of other types of mals, primarily a total. It also has an additional malfunction state - a total with an open container, where the jumper extracts the pin but does not pull the PC into the air enough for a normal deployment. Jumpers considering either system should think about their procedures carefully, so they can decide beforehand how to deal with each type of mal. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #64 April 13, 2006 QuoteSuper. Want to post his toughts on flavored oatmeal too? If it's germane to the issue being discussed, sure. QuoteBill is a brilliant man and has some very valid oppinions, but you know it takes no thought to parrot someone elses views. True. Which is why I didn't parrot them. I simply pointed folk who were reading this discussion to the thoughts of the inventor on the subject. QuoteDo you have an oppinion on the matter and if so what is it based on? Have you packed, inspected or jumped both a pullout, throw out, static line, and ripcord rig? No, I haven't and I don't. I do, however, want people reading this discussion to have a balanced and informed view on the subject. And I think the guy that invented both deployment systems has a more credible opinion than you or I. Or, we could spend the next fifty posts going back and forth about the perceived benefits and disadvantages of both systems. Would that satisfy you? If not, we can discuss RSLs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #65 April 13, 2006 QuoteAnd I think the guy that invented both deployment systems has a more credible opinion than you or I. If I'm a user of the system(s) why whould his opinion be more credible than mine?---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 0 #66 April 13, 2006 QuoteQuoteAnd I think the guy that invented both deployment systems has a more credible opinion than you or I. If I'm a user of the system(s) why whould his opinion be more credible than mine? Credibility is in the eye of the beholder. And in my eyes, to put it bluntly, I think he's better at analysing the failure modes of gear than you are. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Freeflysmiley 2 #67 April 13, 2006 Quote Credibility is in the eye of the beholder. And in my eyes, to put it bluntly, I think he's better at analysing the failure modes of gear than you are I'm with you on that one. I don't understand why some people big themselves up on here and knock posts, we're all here to learn. Thx for the Bill booth link.-------------------------------------------------- Practise the 6 P's! -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #68 April 13, 2006 QuoteYes, certainly, lost/hard-pull puds add to the 'I couldn't pull the main, so I went for the reserve' scenario. This also exists on throw-outs. Statistically, you'd probably find more people going in on a lost throw out handle than a lost pull-out handle Statisticly because more jump throwouts. Do you have any other hard numbers to back that claim up? QuoteSo what's your point? The fact of the matter is that most of those people went in because they did not execute proper EPs. My point? I thought it was clear. Every thing you do can ADD other problems you have not thought about. Claiming that any one solution is perfect is often short sighted. Yes, those folks died due to failure of EP's....However the FIRST step in making a safe jump is to make sure your equipment works well. AND KNOWING THE POSSIBLE PROBLEMS WITH YOUR EQUIPMENT CHOICE. One possible problem with a PUD is a lost handle. I have seen several people land a reserve due to a lost PUD. Not saying they are good or bad...Just saying they are different and people need to know the differences not just accept that one will eliminate a mal without thinking of the other problems it can create."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jurgencamps 0 #69 April 14, 2006 QuoteClosing loop too tight; intentionally, or because you packed it in dry cold main and flew to warm moist Florida to jump. You’re making a low pass out of a Cessna and will never reach terminal Closing loop too tight? Test this: make your loop as tight as possible, put the pin in place and try to lift your rig by pulling at the bridle. The loop can only be "too tight" if you forget to cock the PC. Your PC don't need terminal speed to pull the pin. If it does, your PC is worn out. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
