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wicodefly

Sabre 2 vs. other canopies?

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Hi guys,

I'm looking to buy a new canopy that is fun to fly with a strong flare. I'd like to stay at 1.3 or below and I weight 180 lbs.

I've had a Triathlon 175 and later upsized to a Pulse 190 for like 275 jumps which was nice but felt like a bus compared to the borrowed Sabre 2 170 I've put like 40 jumps on. I also have one jump on a Sabre 2 150 which was fun and easy to land.

Anyway, Sabre 2's seem to be popular in the MidWest but I'm not crazy about the openings.

Also, I'd sort of like to keep it inexpensive since I'll probably get something new next season.

My goals are to become a really good canopy pilot. I don't have any plans to swoop or wing suit but that could change in 400 or 500 jumps.

Any good alternatives or opinions are appreciated. Thanks!
Chance favors the prepared mind.

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Anyway, Sabre 2's seem to be popular in the MidWest but I'm not crazy about the openings.




Sabre2's are great wings - I put about 900 jumps on mine, recently sold it and bought a Firebolt. Better openings, more aggressive, but it's not going to be as familiar at the DZ for most jumpers.
=========Shaun ==========


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Sabre 2, or a Sabre 1 with a pocket slider. You could have a rigger put a pocket slider in a sabre 2, as well, I suppose. I have several hard openings logged on the rental one at the DZ. One day the rigger tweaked the line trim, as several people had been complaining about the end cells not inflating very quickly at lighter wing loadings, and I never had another hard opening out of it.

I ended up buying a Safire 2, which typically has very nice openings and is fun to fly. It CAN spank you if you pack it badly, though. The end cells also seem to inflate slowly on it, but they always do seem to inflate. I'd totally buy another Safire whenever this one's too worn out to jump anymore.
I'm trying to teach myself how to set things on fire with my mind. Hey... is it hot in here?

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The Sabre 2 - 170 would be perfect for you or even the 150 with proper technique. You will get the strong flare you are looking for.
I have almost 300 jumps with it and I liked it a lot. According to John LeBlanc from PD, the Sabre 2 is the best parachute to get you ready for the Katana. This is what I did and have seen very little difference for the flare. Both Sabre 2 and Katana have the same long range toogles which get you being more accurate with toggles imput.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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I flew a Sabre 2 170 (WL 1.07) from 100 to 200 jumps and then a Sabre 2 150 (WL 1.21) for another 100 jumps. As long as you've tried them a few time and can live with being thrown anything from 90 to 360 degrees off heading in the later part of the opening they are in my opinion great canopies. I only had one hard opening on the 170 and that was most likely from a line dump (so my fault for not double stowing). Other than that openings were all soft, almost too snively.

Flight characteristics were very much to my liking, responsive with a nice dive to them. The flair was always strong, even if you chicken on the pitch and start pulling on the toggles early. It's been said that the Sabre 2's respond really well to wing load, so a 150 at 1.3 should be a lot of fun. Try it first and make sure the brake lines haven't shrunk too much. A lot of people seem to be getting pulsation when on fronts.

Since the Sabre 2's I've made 120 jumps on a Stiletto (which is great fun in it's own way), but just yesterday I got a Sabre 2 120 to replace it. I figure that if I want to progress to a more modern style canopy later on, like a Katana or something, I will have wanted to gotten used to the longer recovery arc.

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Snowcrash

As long as you've tried them a few time and can live with being thrown anything from 90 to 360 degrees off heading in the later part of the opening they are in my opinion great canopies.



Interesting you mention this. I've recently got a Sabre2 190 with about 250 jumps on it; my body position is pretty good on deployment, and I've always been rock solid...but with the Sabre2 I consistently get anything between 90 degree and 360 turns on deployment.

I'll look up to see it snivelling nicely, but right at the end it decides to go nuts on me. The slider typically stays up a long time (often have to use rear risers to bring it down), and I almost always have end cell closure on the left side.

Some of the 360s are quite violent, but once it settles down it flies beautifully. The toggle pressure seems much higher than other canopies I've jumped, but the flare is endless. Where people find themselves running off nil wind landings, this can stop dead. Although I'm also finding I can push the flare just a little bit too much and have the canopy "pop up" right at the end.

Anyone else experience these characteristics?

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faulk04

***Demo a Pilot



I love my pilot! Opens so much better and thats what sold me on it.

I love my Pilot as well, but (openings aside) it doesn't sound quite like what the OP is after, especially since he says he wasn't impressed with the Pulse (which is, IMO, fairly Pilot-y). That said, a Pilot 150 at 1.35 is a very different beast to a 190 at 1.05...

Probably worth giving a Safire2 a go too?
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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MrGrumpie

Interesting you mention this. I've recently got a Sabre2 190 with about 250 jumps on it; my body position is pretty good on deployment, and I've always been rock solid...but with the Sabre2 I consistently get anything between 90 degree and 360 turns on deployment.

I'll look up to see it snivelling nicely, but right at the end it decides to go nuts on me. The slider typically stays up a long time (often have to use rear risers to bring it down), and I almost always have end cell closure on the left side.



Sounds exactly like what I used to have. My guess was that the span-wise pressurization part of the opening was slightly uneven, meaning that one side of the wing would fly just before the other, leading to a quick turn.

Speculating wildly, could it have something to do with the way the nose is done? It seems to me that Sabre2's have more fabric over the cell openings than many other canopies. I'm thinking maybe it restricts air flow into the cells to some extent during opening?

I'd always look up, see it streaming nicely, have enough time to think "Wow, this one might actually be on hea..!" Boom, 90° right, or left, or 360° or something else.

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MrGrumpie

*** As long as you've tried them a few time and can live with being thrown anything from 90 to 360 degrees off heading in the later part of the opening they are in my opinion great canopies.



Interesting you mention this. I've recently got a Sabre2 190 with about 250 jumps on it; my body position is pretty good on deployment, and I've always been rock solid...but with the Sabre2 I consistently get anything between 90 degree and 360 turns on deployment.

I'll look up to see it snivelling nicely, but right at the end it decides to go nuts on me. The slider typically stays up a long time (often have to use rear risers to bring it down), and I almost always have end cell closure on the left side.

Some of the 360s are quite violent, but once it settles down it flies beautifully. The toggle pressure seems much higher than other canopies I've jumped, but the flare is endless. Where people find themselves running off nil wind landings, this can stop dead. Although I'm also finding I can push the flare just a little bit too much and have the canopy "pop up" right at the end.

Anyone else experience these characteristics?

Yes, as to all points (pro & con), on Sabre-2's that I've borrowed or rented from time to time. That said, I'm one of those who loves my Pilot. But that's because I love the openings and the long glide; and the flare is quite fine - for me. I'd happily get another one. That said, I agree with the others that the OP seems to be valuing the flare highly. If a powerful flare is your #1 priority, you don't mind the wonkiness on opening, and you want to stick to an intermediate canopy, the Sabre-2 seems like a good choice.

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I see the same thing on mine (170 @ 1.1), I've got used to it having its own ideas about where we're going that we then negotiate once it's fully open. Even though I just discovered I'm not fully stable on opening and tend to put a spin on myself, I've just not had this kind of erratic behaviour on any of Navigators, Spectres and Pulses I've flown. I've also experienced mysterious complete end cell closure on 4 or 5 jumps in a row, completely unprovoked. I got its trim checked, it was fine (for a canopy with 500 jumps on the lines anyway), and then the issue just kinda faded away. It's a great little canopy to fly once you learn to land it properly, but everyone agrees that a Sabre2 is a Sabre2 and it opens the way it does. I've also heard opinions from people who fly multiple sizes that it's particularly sensitive to the right sizing, with the guy who flies 3 sizes regularly saying that the stable one is one of his two favourite WS canopies, while a bigger size is total crap for him.

Somewhat relatedly, has anyone tried a helicopter stall on Sabre2? I just did 2 attempts, and man, it did not like the idea. The first time I thought it was my fault for chickening out too soon and letting up the toggles in a hurry, but no, it did the same thing again: the flying side surges massively down and under the stalled side, with the whole canopy now rushing sideways to get under the horizon, fast. I did not dare to keep it up for fear of tangling it up and fouling a good canopy, and once I let the toggles up, the entire canopy entered a sustained surge I actively had to stab out, unlike any other surge I've ever induced, with the entire stalled side closed and taking good 10s to reinflate fully after I braked it a bit.

Am I just doing it wrong? I've never tried a helicopter before, but I did it by braking heavily to the verge of a stall, then letting one toggle up ever so slightly while pushing the other down. Should I be doing it differently, or is Sabre2 just not a good wing to do it on?
"Skydivers are highly emotional people. They get all excited about their magical black box full of mysterious life saving forces."

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I love my Pilot as well, but (openings aside) it doesn't sound quite like what the OP is after, especially since he says he wasn't impressed with the Pulse (which is, IMO, fairly Pilot-y). That said, a Pilot 150 at 1.35 is a very different beast to a 190 at 1.05...




I can second this. I've put ~900+ jumps on my S2-150, and all my buddies jump Pilots (we have an Aerodyne Dealer at the DZ). Those are my go-to loaner canopies. In general, I prefer the S2 over the Pilot. Those who are better canopy pilots than I may critique my feedback here, but here is my general comparison of the two...

a. Pilots tend to have better openings. My S2 has the characteristic end-cell closure ~50% of the time, and will open slightly more abruptly. End cell closures on the S2 tend to be more common once the line trim approaches ~2.00" differential across the A-Group (quick and dirty measurement) and I have been diligent in relining every 400 jumps. Overall I have no complaints with the S2 openings, and it's forgiving enough that I don't have to fly the openings even though I load at ~1.4.

b. S2 at comparable wingloading, has much more flare, with the majority of the stopping power existing in the first 30% of the brakes. Pilots, as I have seen, have more power in the lower portion of the flare, with more stopping power in the bottom. The S2 will want to fly, the Pilot will want to stop.

c. Pilot recovery arc is much shorter than a Sabre2, almost as short as a Triathlon or even a Silhouette.
=========Shaun ==========


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I have 300ish on a sabre 1 230 200+ on a sabre2 230 300+ on a sabre2 210 50+ on a sabre 2 190 The 190 spanked me several times once in Perris so bad I thought I was paralyzed. Jon LeBlanc had even checked it out on the ground before that and didn't see anything wrong with it. Could have been packing error or me being a fat ass who knows. I demoed a Pilot 188 and fell in love and sold the Sabre's and bought 2 new pilots(never has any of the 3 pilots I owned spanked me).

The sabre 230 and 210 where great wings and loved them the 190 was great to fly just couldn't trust it any longer but the pilot is a dream.

I am 280ish out the door so I am loading the pilot pretty decent but even when I was 260is out the door it gave this old guy all he wanted when he wanted or landed me as soft as I wanted.

If I was 10 years younger and 20lbs lighter id get a Nitron 170 Damn that is FUN canopy. Only jumped it a couple of times while both my rigs needed a repack but man if I wasn't an old fat man...

Anyway the moral is JUMP a lot of canopies. Most manufactures have demo canopies. Some will be brand new some will have a few jumps on them but they will give you a better idea of what YOU want to fly.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

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I hear you on the "searching for a heading on openings". I started psycho packing my Saber 2 specifically to treat the nose. Roll the four outer cells away from the center cell which opens the center up. Push the slider in all the way. The result is the slider and the center cell catch the air first. Very rare to have an off heading opening now. Don't pay attention to the slider and you will be reminded how important it is to pay attention :o
My goal is that when all is said done I will have a big pile of well used gear and a collection of great stories.

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OP here. My new to me Sabre 2 is in the mail. Thanks for the opinions and explanations everyone.

Given everything I've leaned and my goals a Sabre 2 seems to be the next step for me.

Interestingly, I'll probably jump a Safire a couple times this week. Next time I can get my hands on a Pilot I'd like to try one too. Just to keep things interesting and try to learn more.

Thanks!
Chance favors the prepared mind.

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